Making Sense of the Trinity

[UnderGrace]

I really like this representation, I do shy away from the use of persons, God is Spirit and the word persons to me is problematic, especially when I looked at the history of how Tertullian coined the word Trinity and three persons.

While Tertullian may have thought he was doing a good thing to preserve the truth of the Godhead, in many ways he created the perception to some of polytheism. God is one, and within the oneness are three Father, Son and Spirit.

no one knows the LORD except that He has revealed Himself.

and He has revealed Himself in three aspects: the Father, the Son, and the Spirit

and we know that He is One God and that there is no other beside Him.

that's all. no need to make this more complicated than it is.

 

[FreeNChrist]

I really like this representation, I do shy away from the use of persons, God is Spirit and the word persons to me is problematic, especially when I looked at the history of how Tertullian coined the word Trinity and three persons.

While Tertullian may have thought he was doing a good thing to preserve the truth of the Godhead, in many ways he created the perception to some of polytheism. God is one, and within the oneness are three Father, Son and Spirit.

Three what?

 

[UnderGrace]

Three what?

Not exactly sure what you are asking but persons is defined as
per·son
ˈpərs(ə)n/
noun
plural noun: persons
1.
a human being regarded as an individual.
"the porter was the last person to see her"

[TABLE="class: vk_tbl vk_gy"]
[TR]
[TD="class: lr_dct_nyms_ttl"]synonyms:
[/TD]
[TD]human being, individual, man/woman, child, human, being, (living) soul, mortal, creature;


[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Jesus was God in the flesh and still is yes so he became a person, however, God is Spirit not persons. Scripture has never stated that God is three persons.

 

[Vdp]

There is God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.

To deny any one of these is to deny God.

Disciplemike may not like the fact that there is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

To deny the Holy Spirit is the Ultimate Sin that will keep a person from entering into Paradise with God.

 

[ZacharyB]

God has determined to present Himself to us as 3 Persons or 3 Manifestations.
There are many fewer NT verses claiming the Holy Spirit is God
than there are verses claiming Jesus is God.

Father God and Jesus Christ both have the same names/titles
Lord ------------ Genesis 17:1 - Luke 2:11, etc.
Lord of hosts --- Malachi 2:14 - see Zechariah 14:16
Lord of glory --- Psalm 24:10 -- 1 Corinthians 2:8
Savior ---------- Isaiah 60:16 - Titus 2:13, etc.
Redeemer -------- Isaiah 49:26 - Galatians 3:13
I AM ------------ Exodus 3:14 -- John 8:24, etc.
Rock ------------ Isaiah 44:8 -- 1 Corinthians 10:4
King ------------ Psalm 74:12 -- Revelation 19:16
First and Last -- Isaiah 44:6 -- Rev.2:8, Rev.22:13
Alpha and Omega - See Rev.21:6 - Rev.22:13
Beginning and End See Rev.21:6 - Rev.22:13
compare --------- Isaiah 45:23 - Philippians 2:10-11

Jesus claimed to be God
Matthew 4:7

Jesus claimed to be “I AM” (which is God’s name “forever”: see Exodus 3:14-15)
John 4:26, John 8:24, John 8:28, John 8:58, John 13:19, John 18:6, John 18:8
In the original Greek, there is no “he” after “I AM” in any of the verses above.

And Jesus also hints that He is the great “I AM”
John 6:35, John 6:51, John 8:12, John 10:7, John 10:11, John 11:25, John 14:6, John 15:1

Jesus was the exact image of Father God
2 Corinthians 4:4, Hebrews 1:3, Philippians 2:6, Colossians 1:15,
Colossians 1:19, Colossians 2:9, John 14:9, 1 Timothy 3:16

Jesus claimed equality with Father God
John 5:18, John 5:23, John 10:30, John 10:33, John 10:36,
John 10:38, John 14:9, John 17:22, John 20:28-29 ßßß

Others claimed Jesus was God, or equal to Father God
John 1:1-2 (see Rev.19:13), John 14:11, John 20:28, Acts 7:59, Romans 9:5,
Philippians 2:10-11, Titus 2:13, Hebrews 1:8-13, 1 John 5:20, Jude 4

Jesus was the Creator of all things
John 1:3, John 1:10, Acts 3:15, Acts 10:37, 1 Corinthians 8:6,
Ephesians 3:9, Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:2, Hebrews 1:8-11

Jesus is the Sustainer of all things now
Colossians 1:17, Hebrews 1:3

Jesus had total power and authority over everything and everybody
Matthew 4:24, Matthew 8:16, Matthew 8:26, Luke 4:40-41, etc.

Jesus is the Giver of eternal life
John 4:14, John 5:21, John 6:27, John 10:27-28, John 11:25,
John 14:6, John 17:2, Hebrews 5:9, 1 John 1:1-2, 1 John 5:20

Many people called Jesus “the Son of God”
The Jews taught that “Son of God” and “Messiah” signified equality with God:
John 1:41, John 4:25, Matthew 26:63. Also see Matthew 16:16 and John 20:31.
Therefore, the Jews taught Messiah = Christ = Son of God
Also see Matthew 27:43, Luke 22:70, Matthew 14:33,
Mark 1:1, Luke 4:41, John 1:34, Acts 8:37, Hebrews 4:14

 

[UnderGrace]

There is God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.

To deny any one of these is to deny God.

Disciplemike may not like the fact that there is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

To deny the Holy Spirit is the Ultimate Sin that will keep a person from entering into Paradise with God.

I agree with you on the Godhead, however unbelief in the truth (salvation is believing the Jesus is Saviour and died for our sins and was resurrected) that comes from the Holy spirit is the the ultimate sin. The scripture teaches that the Holy Spirit will guide us into all Truth.

 

[UnderGrace]

God has determined to present Himself to us as 3 Persons or 3 Manifestations.

I like three manifestations a bit better but even that has its problems, thank for all the scripture references...Awesome.

Sometimes I think words just to not suffice to explain the Godhead.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Not exactly sure what you are asking but persons is defined as
per·son
ˈpərs(ə)n/
noun
plural noun: persons
1.
a human being regarded as an individual.
"the porter was the last person to see her"

[TABLE="class: vk_tbl vk_gy"]
[TR]
[TD="class: lr_dct_nyms_ttl"]synonyms:[/TD]
[TD]human being, individual, man/woman, child, human, being, (living) soul, mortal, creature;
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Jesus was God in the flesh and still is yes so he became a person, however, God is Spirit not persons. Scripture has never stated that God is three persons.

In reference to the Trinity as three persons, the word refers to the attributes of personhood: self-awareness, choice, can reason, love, possessing a will and consciousness, etc. Humans possess these attributes as well.


https://carm.org/dictionary-person

 

[UnderGrace]

In reference to the Trinity as three persons, the word refers to the attributes of personhood: self-awareness, choice, can reason, love, possessing a will and consciousness, etc. Humans possess these attributes as well.


https://carm.org/dictionary-person

Yes I understand that is where it comes from, however I still believe that it is a poor definition/ word to describe the Godhead.

Those are aspects that God, He gave to us, to define Him in terms of how he created us in his image is backwards to me. He is more than any of these qualities. "God in three persons" ultimately comes from church of Rome so I would be wary.

Tertullian, a Latin theologian who wrote in the early 3rd century, is credited as being the first to use the Latin words "Trinity",[SUP][20][/SUP] "person" and "substance"[SUP][21][/SUP] to explain that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are "one in essence—not one in Person".[SUP][22]

[/SUP]

Tertullian was trying to define God against those who denied the Triune nature. He used the word person first, and how CARM is defining it was not the intent of Tertullian.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Very interesting posts, undergrace! (Spellcheck kept insisting I call you "underprice" instead of undergrace, but I won the battle).

 

[UnderGrace]

Very interesting posts, undergrace! (Spellcheck kept insisting I call you "underprice" instead of undergrace, but I won the battle).

Too funny ..... I am okay with underprice too.....I love a deal.

 

[Angela53510]

God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."
John 4:24 (ESV2011)

God is Spirit. I am not an expert in this, but I believe God IS the Holy Spirit.
His Son, Yeshua, is the manifest physical form of God Himself.

This is an interesting verse:

But the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon, and he blew a trumpet; and Abiezer was gathered after him.Judges 6:34 (KJV)

If you look in the Hebrew, it says the Spirit of YHVH put on Gideon like a garment!!!

I haven't read the whole thread, so if someone else posted on this, please ignore!

What you are describing is modalism. Where God changes from the Father to the Son, to the Holy Spirit. It was an early church heresy called Sabellianism. I have a good explanation which uses John 1:1 in the Greek to show conclusively that this view is totally wrong. God is one, and that oneness has three distinct persons. I am just checking in before church, but I will try and remember to post this air tight refutation of this very wrong theology. But here is a brief explanation in the meantime.

"Modalism, also called Sabellianism, is the unorthodox belief that God is one person who has revealed himself in three forms or modes in contrast to the Trinitarian doctrine where God is one being eternally existing in three persons. According to Modalism, during the incarnation, Jesus was simply God acting in one mode or role, and the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was God acting in a different mode. Thus, God does not exist as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit at the same time. Rather, He is one person and has merely manifested himself in these three modes at various times. Modalism thus denies the basic distinctiveness and coexistence of the three persons of the Trinity.Modalism was condemned by Tertullian (c. 213, Tertullian Against Praxeas 1, in Ante Nicene Fathers, vol. 3). Also known as Sabellianism, it was condemned as heresy by Dionysius, bishop of Rome (c. 262).
Modalism is probably the most common theological error concerning the nature of God (i.e., who God is). "Present day groups that hold to forms of this error are the United Pentecostal and United Apostolic Churches. They deny the Trinity, teach that the name of God is Jesus... modalist churches often accuse Trinitarians of teaching three gods. This is not what the Trinity is. The correct teaching of the Trinity is one God in three eternal coexistent persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."

Modalism | Theopedia

 

[trofimus]

Yes I understand that is where it comes from, however I still believe that it is a poor definition/ word to describe the Godhead.

Those are aspects that God, He gave to us, to define Him in terms of how he created us in his image is backwards to me. He is more than any of these qualities. "God in three persons" ultimately comes from church of Rome so I would be wary.

Tertullian, a Latin theologian who wrote in the early 3rd century, is credited as being the first to use the Latin words "Trinity",[SUP][20][/SUP] "person" and "substance"[SUP][21][/SUP] to explain that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are "one in essence—not one in Person".[SUP][22]

[/SUP]

Tertullian was trying to define God against those who denied the Triune nature. He used the word person first, and how CARM is defining it was not the intent of Tertullian.

God gave his only son.

There are definitely two of them.

Person is the best word we have. Two aspects? Certainly not. Aspect cannot send other aspect to save us. Aspect has no intentions or will.

 

[UnderGrace]

Aspects, as in qualities or characteristics of God.
I am not using the word aspects in place of persons.
As well I never said that there is not a triune nature to God.

I said the word person has its limitations in understanding God who is Spirit, that is all!!

Je suis tout fini. That is french. Done.

God gave his only son.

There are definitely two of them.

Person is the best word we have. Two aspects? Certainly not. Aspect cannot send other aspect to save us. Aspect has no intentions or will.

 

[UnderGrace]

God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."
John 4:24 (ESV2011)

God is Spirit. I am not an expert in this, but I believe God IS the Holy Spirit.
His Son, Yeshua, is the manifest physical form of God Himself.

This is an interesting verse:

But the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon, and he blew a trumpet; and Abiezer was gathered after him.Judges 6:34 (KJV)

If you look in the Hebrew, it says the Spirit of YHVH put on Gideon like a garment!!!

[/QUOTE


I understand your line of thinking very well having had many many conversations with people who think like you and see scripture this way. However if you could just clarify because sometimes there are a thousand shades of grey.

Do believe Jesus as part of that Spirit that is God, existed in God as a separate part of God, before He was manifest in the flesh here on earth.

You can be honest, I won't bite. At first I was shocked to hear this viewpoint, but I am well beyond that, I prefer to reason with you as scripture tells us to do.

 

[ukok102nak]

1 Corinthians 8:6
[SUP]6 [/SUP]yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

John 14:26
[SUP]26 [/SUP]But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

There are 3 persons in the God Head and each person has different jobs to do. But at the same time they all are one God.

John 14:9
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Its simple. Because we are made of matter we cannot comprehend that which is not made of atoms and electrons and protons.

our brethren :rofl: said that he is greatful for your
messages
:as it is written
:read:

Its simple. Because we are made of matter we cannot comprehend that which is not made of atoms and electrons and protons.

. ... and unto all the brethrens brothers sisters
here and out there and everywhere

:ty:

godbless us all always

 

[popeye]

There is God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.

To deny any one of these is to deny God.

Disciplemike may not like the fact that there is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

To deny the Holy Spirit is the Ultimate Sin that will keep a person from entering into Paradise with God.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[disciplemike]

God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."
John 4:24 (ESV2011)

God is Spirit. I am not an expert in this, but I believe God IS the Holy Spirit.
His Son, Yeshua, is the manifest physical form of God Himself.

This is an interesting verse:

But the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon, and he blew a trumpet; and Abiezer was gathered after him.Judges 6:34 (KJV)

If you look in the Hebrew, it says the Spirit of YHVH put on Gideon like a garment!!!

[/QUOTE


I understand your line of thinking very well having had many many conversations with people who think like you and see scripture this way. However if you could just clarify because sometimes there are a thousand shades of grey.

Do believe Jesus as part of that Spirit that is God, existed in God as a separate part of God, before He was manifest in the flesh here on earth.

You can be honest, I won't bite. At first I was shocked to hear this viewpoint, but I am well beyond that, I prefer to reason with you as scripture tells us to do.

I believe He was here in physical form several times before the birth in Bethlehem. Sometimes as a Rock, sometimes as a "man" visiting Abraham as he sat in his tent door,.. many ways.

 

[ukok102nak]

:hrmm: as it is written
:read:
1 Timoteo: 3. 16. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

:ty:

godbless us all always

 

[popeye]

I would agree .Again God uses three as a metaphor to express the end of the matter.

No

There ARE 3

There is one.

Both.

Perfect harmony,perfect one -ness.

No conflict in sayin both or either