Man Child

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Depleted

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2015
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Philly, PA, USA
#21
I have a Strong's and several other Greek and Hebrew dictionaries. I understand the need to understand each and every word, context, a verb tense.
I am smarter than I look.:cool:
Well, judging what you look like is rather difficult. I tend to accept the person I'm talking to on here is their avatar. Since yours is a very appealing house on a river bank, I'm not sure if that looks smart or not. lol
 

SpoonJuly

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2018
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#22
Personal opinion.

Man! That was a bust. Still don't know what it means.




(At least we now know, it's unlikely anyone knows -- for sure -- except those who were around in those days and God.)
I must disagree with your dead guys. Surely they know better now.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
5,475
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#23
They are not Jewish. They are Israelites. Jews are of the tribe Judah, but just one of the 12 tribes. Jews are Israelites also. :cool:
Yes. Judah is mentioned as one of those twelve tribes, but the twelve tribes are clearly spelled out. Another error about these 144,000 redeemed out of Israel is that they are evangelists. There is absolutely no indication of that in Revelation 7 & 14. These men are simply raptured out from the earth and we find them next worshiping before the throne of God.

Evidently, the twelve tribes will somehow be re-established by God in the future, and these 144,000 are a microcosm of redeemed and restored Israel in the future. Obviously, there is a great deal which has not been revealed to us, but God will work out all things for His glory, and reveal all things at the appropriate time (when we have been perfected).
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
2,283
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#24
That is what I thought, but I was informed I was wrong.
I can't speak for every translation under the sun but the KJV, NKJV, NIV & Amplified all have iron rod or sceptre. The Luther Bibel also has eisernen zepter (iron sceptre). I think the 144,000 theory is just someone's different interpretation.
 

SpoonJuly

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2018
274
86
28
#25
Well, judging what you look like is rather difficult. I tend to accept the person I'm talking to on here is their avatar. Since yours is a very appealing house on a river bank, I'm not sure if that looks smart or not. lol
Not a river, just a small spring fed creek. The house is about 300 yards from the spring.
My wife said not to post a pic of myself. Might scare the kids.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
8,922
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#26
To know who is the child, its a good idea to begin with "who is the woman".
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
5,475
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#27
Did you know you are greatly constipated and in dire need of an enema?
Your specialty is personal attacks, so this is no surprise. All you have done is regurgitate what others have said, rather than present your own observations. The Reformed theologians were simply following the teachings of the RCC when it came to Bible prophecy. So ONE MAN CHILD suddenly and fancifully becomes the Church!

...the church brought forth a manly issue of true and faithful professors, in whom Christ was truly formed anew...

And she brought forth a man child,.... Not Christ, literally and personally considered...

And she brought forth a man child - The Christian Church, when her full time came...

And she brought forth a man child - Representing, according to the view above taken, the church in its increase and prosperity...
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
5,475
396
83
#28
To know who is the child, its a good idea to begin with "who is the woman".
Not necessarily. It is the one who rules ALL NATIONS with a rod of iron that determines the meaning of Man Child.
 

SpoonJuly

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2018
274
86
28
#29
Your specialty is personal attacks, so this is no surprise. All you have done is regurgitate what others have said, rather than present your own observations. The Reformed theologians were simply following the teachings of the RCC when it came to Bible prophecy. So ONE MAN CHILD suddenly and fancifully becomes the Church!

...the church brought forth a manly issue of true and faithful professors, in whom Christ was truly formed anew...

And she brought forth a man child,.... Not Christ, literally and personally considered...

And she brought forth a man child - The Christian Church, when her full time came...

And she brought forth a man child - Representing, according to the view above taken, the church in its increase and prosperity...
I just wonder where some of these well studied Bible experts come up with their strange teachings?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
5,475
396
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#31
I just wonder where some of these well studied Bible experts come up with their strange teachings?
You can trace everything back to Augustine and the Roman Catholic Church. The Reformers were not focused on Bible prophecy but the Gospel. And those who adhered to Reformed Theology later (such as Matthew Henry, John Gill, etc.) failed to start afresh and re-examine all these man-made ideas. Five Point Calvinism also can be traced back to Augustine.
 

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
2,696
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#34
Rev 12:5-6: "She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days"

I'm a bit rusty on end times, but I've aways seen Jesus as being the one mentioned, from the tribe of Judah, who will rule with a rod of iron. When you look over those verses there's a distinction made between the man child (Jesus, who ascended into Heaven) and the remnant of Israel (woman) who is sealed and will in the future flee into the place prepared for her, for 3.5 years. Those verses are not speaking of them as being one and the same, so the man child could not be the 144,000.

And then satan will be unsuccessful in destroying the remnant, so will get angry and go after the tribulation saints (believers in Jesus), and most of them will end up dying for their faith.


Other scriptures...

Acts 1:9-11: "Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

Ephesians 1:20: ".....according to the working of His mighty power which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places"

Hebrews 10:12-13: "...But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool"

Psalm 2:7-9: “I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You. Ask of Me, and I will give You The nations for Your inheritance, And the ends of the earth for Your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’”

Rev 19:11-16: Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS"
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
7,008
279
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#35
How can 144,000 men = ONE MAN CHILD?

Do you see the absurdity?
Hello Nehemiah6,

The term "Male Child" is a collective name representing the 144,000 who come out of Israel, ergo, gives birth to. We have a similar case of one name being a collective name representing "Legion." A name which represented over 2000 demons.

In addition, Jesus does not fit the criteria as being the Male Child. For the Woman giving birth to the Male Child, the Male child being "caught up" to God's throne and the dragon/Satan and his angels being cast to the earth, are all literal future events. Jesus is not the only one that scripture states will rule with an a rod of Iron:

The church
But I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned the so-called deep things of Satan: I will place no further burden upon you. Nevertheless, hold fast to what you have until I come. And to the one who is victorious and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations. He will rule them with an iron scepter and shatter them like pottery—just as I have received authority from My Father. And I will give him the morning star.

Male Child
And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

The Lord Jesus Christ
And from His mouth proceeds a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and He will rule them with an iron scepter. He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God, the Almighty. And He has a name written on His robe and on His thigh: King of kings and Lord of lords.

In Rev.14:4, the scripture states regarding the 144,000 "these are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. This would infer that the144,000 are all males and adults, ergo, Male Child, because if they were children as some claim, then the scripture would not have to include them as not defiling themselves with women, because that would be a given and therefore no need to mention it.
 

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
2,696
117
63
#36
Rev 12:5-6: "She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days"

I'm a bit rusty on end times, but I've aways seen Jesus as being the one mentioned, from the tribe of Judah, who will rule with a rod of iron. When you look over those verses there's a distinction made between the man child (Jesus, who ascended into Heaven) and the remnant of Israel (woman) who is sealed and will in the future flee into the place prepared for her, for 3.5 years. Those verses are not speaking of them as being one and the same, so the man child could not be the 144,000.

And then satan will be unsuccessful in destroying the remnant, so will get angry and go after the tribulation saints (believers in Jesus), and most of them will end up dying for their faith.


Other scriptures...

Acts 1:9-11: "Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

Ephesians 1:20: ".....according to the working of His mighty power which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places"

Hebrews 10:12-13: "...But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool"

Psalm 2:7-9: “I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You. Ask of Me, and I will give You The nations for Your inheritance, And the ends of the earth for Your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’”

Rev 19:11-16: Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS"
(Sorry, I know this isn't a rapture thread) but it occurred to me after posting this that it is only the 144,000 that are sealed and protected during the tribulation. So if all other scriptures are rejected, that support a rapture, then does this picture here alone not prove that us believers will not be here, because as the scriptures say we won't experience the wrath. And yet here we see it's only the 144,000 that are protected during the tribulation.

I know this is for another thread, but just wanted to mention it. Again, I haven't looked over the end times scriptures in a while, but that just came to mind.
 

OneFaith

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2016
1,851
123
63
#37
The man child (male child) is Jesus. The 144,000 are the saved from the Old Testament.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
5,475
396
83
#38
And yet here we see it's only the 144,000 that are protected during the tribulation.
These 144,000 are 12,000 from each of the TWELVE TRIBES OF ISRAEL. So there is no need to confuse the Church (redeemed Jews AND Gentiles in one Body) with these redeemed Israelites. The Church is a countless multitude in Heaven which is already present.
 

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
2,696
117
63
#39
These 144,000 are 12,000 from each of the TWELVE TRIBES OF ISRAEL. So there is no need to confuse the Church (redeemed Jews AND Gentiles in one Body) with these redeemed Israelites. The Church is a countless multitude in Heaven which is already present.
You misunderstood my post, or maybe I wasn't clear. I agree. The 144,000 are a remnant in Israel who are sealed and will be protected during the Great tribulation. In the end they will come to believe in Jesus, and will be saved.

What I was trying to say is that this fact seems to be further confirmation that the body of Christ has already been raptured and will not be here during the GT, because the protection is on that remnant in Israel, and they are the ones that flee into the wilderness. That leaves just two options... all in the body of Christ have been put to death (which I don't believe, as we're not appointed to wrath) or we're no longer here.

These were just my thoughts after my other post. Sorry to the OP for going off topic...
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
8,527
227
63
64
Texas
#40
And she brought forth a Man Child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her Child was caught up unto God, and to His throne. Rev. 12:5

Who is the Man Child?

I have always believed it is Jesus. I recently was informed by a member of this forum that the Man Child is the 144,000 mentioned in Rev. He said that Rev. 14:4 supports this (the 144,000 are the Man Child).

Now I know I am not the smartest person in the world. I have never been to a Bible collage. Never studied the Greek or Hebrew. And while I have not studied the end time events 40 years, I have studied the Bible for 55 years.
But, all my studying has been in the hard to read, hard to understand, poorly translated KJV so maybe I just don't understand.

So, who is the Man Child?
By Oldhermit

The “Mystery of God” in microcosm
A. The woman with child, 1-2 – Israel as an appointed nation.

1. “A great sign appeared inheaven: woman clothed with the sun, and the moonunder her feet,” This is the nation of Israel who has always been portrayedas the bride of Jehovah clothed in splendor. “Then I passed by you and sawyou, and behold, you were at the time for love; so, I spread My skirt over youand covered your nakedness. I also swore to you and entered into a covenantwith you so that you became Mine,” declares the Lord God. Then I bathed youwith water, washed off your blood from you and anointed you with oil. I alsoclothed you with embroidered cloth and put sandals of porpoise skin on yourfeet; and I wrapped you with fine linen and covered you with silk. I adornedyou with ornaments, put bracelets on your hands and a necklace around yourneck. I also put a ring in your nostril, earrings in your ears and a beautifulcrown on your head. Thus, you were adorned with gold and silver, and your dresswas of fine linen, silk and embroidered cloth. You ate fine flour, honey andoil; so, you were exceedingly beautiful and advanced to royalty. Then your famewent forth among the nations on account of your beauty, for it was perfectbecause of My splendor which I bestowed on you,” declares the Lord GOD.” Ezekiel16:8-14.
2. “Andon her head a crown of twelve stars;” The nation was comprised of the 12tribes represented here by 12 stars.
3.Israel's struggle to bring forth Messiah, “And she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.”

B. Theattempt by Satan to destroy the child, 3-4

1. “Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns,and on his heads were seven diadems.” We are told in versenine that the dragon is Satan but the seven heads and seven diadems arerepresentative of the nation of Rome. So, it is through Rome that Satan exercisedhis power against the woman. This beast is the fourth beast mentioned inDaniel's vision in Daniel 7:7-8. “After this I kept looking in the nightvisions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrifying and extremelystrong; and it had large iron teeth. It devoured and crushed and trampled downthe remainder with its feet; and it was different from all the beasts that werebefore it, and it had ten horns. “While I was contemplating the horns, behold,another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first hornswere pulled out by the roots before it; and behold, this horn possessed eyeslike the eyes of a man and a mouth uttering great boasts.” Daniel does notmention the seven heads but focuses rather on the ten horns which were tenkings.

a.Seven heads – “Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are sevenmountains on which the woman sits, and they are seven kings; five have fallen,one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a littlewhile,” 17:9-10.Thus, the seven heads are the seven hills of Romewhich had become the symbol of the imperial city. The woman is Jerusalem.
b. Theten horns – “The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yetreceived a kingdom, but they receive authority AS kings withthe beast for one hour. “These have one purpose, and they give their power andauthority to the beast,” 17:12-13. (100 men serve as emperor of Rome fromAugustus in 67BC to Maurice in 602AD so, why are only ten horns mentioned? Isit because the fulfilment of these events would be in the days of the tenthhorn?)

*These ten horns are Roman tributary kings for none of them have received akingdom and they derive their authority from the beast.
* Thetime of their power is limited as they receive authority “for one hour.” Inother words, for a short period of time.
*These kings serve Rome for they “give their power and authority to thebeast,”

2. “Andhis tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth.” Their power has been takenaway. This suggests the power of the Roman empire over the nations and over their tributaries.
3. “Andthe dragon stood before the woman (Israel) who was aboutto give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour herchild.” Satanattempted to kill Jesus at his birth. This was aprophesied event. “Thus, says the Lord, "A voice is heard in Ramah,lamentation and bitter weeping. Rachel is weeping for her children; She refusesto be comforted for her children, because they are no more.” Jeremiah32:15. Matthew records in Matthew 2:16-18 that Jeremiah's words were fulfilledin the attempt to kill Jesus after his birth. “Then when Herod (one ofthe horns – a tributary king of Rome) saw that he had been tricked by themagi, he became very enraged, and sent and slew all the male children who werein Bethlehem and all its vicinity, from two years old and under, according tothe time which he had determined from the magi. Then what had been spokenthrough Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: “A voice was heard in Ramah, weepingand great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and she refused to becomforted, because they were no more.” In Daniel 7:24 we are also told thatthese ten horns are ten kings of the sea beast. “As for the ten horns, outof this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and hewill be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings.”

C. Thebirth of Messiah, 5-6

1.“And she gave birth to a son, a male child, (Not the Churchwhich is always represented in the feminine) who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; This canonly be Jesus. He is theone who was to rule with the nations with therod of iron.

a.Psalms 2:9, “You shall break them with a rod of iron. You shall shatter themlike earthenware.”
b. Revelation2:27, “And he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of thepotter are broken to pieces, as I also have received authority from My Father.”
c. Revelation 19:15, “From His mouth comes asharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rulethem with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath ofGod, the Almighty.”

2.“And her child was caught up to God and to His throne.” Thisis the resurrection and ascension of Jesus which was seen by Daniel 7:13-14, “Ikept looking in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven Onelike a Son of Man was coming, and He came up to the Ancient of Days and waspresented before Him. And to Him was given dominion, glory and a kingdom, thatall the peoples, nations and men of every language might serve Him. Hisdominion is an everlasting dominion which will not pass away; and His kingdomis one which will not be destroyed.” Persecution was the method by whichSatan attempted to destroy this kingdom.
3. “Thenthe woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, sothat there she would be nourished for one thousandtwo hundred and sixty days.” The Christians fled to the mountains of Pelaas the Lord had warned them to do during the persecution of Jewish Christiansin the time of Israel's judgment, Matthew 24:16 and Luke 21:21.

D. Thedefeat of Satan, 7-12

1. “Andthere was war in heaven”
Thisis notnecessarily speaking of the unseen celestial world, nor is thiswar necessarily one that was waged in the unseen world. As a symbol, heaven isused in Revelation to represent governments and authorities.
2. Twoopposing forces of good and evil – Michael and his angels vs the dragon andhis angels.

a.Michael and Satan are historic enemies. Jude 9 tells us of the dispute betweenMichael and Satan over the body of Moses.
b.Michael is the defender of the saints while Satan is the power behind theenemies of Christianity. This war was the fulfillment of Daniel 12:1, "Nowat that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of yourpeople, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurredsince there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people,everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.” Notice,Michael is the guardian of the people of God. He was to arise in the time ofgreat distress to rescue the saints out of that time of distress.

3.The war
“Michaeland his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and hisangels waged war.” Angels representconfederate forces. The angels who where with Michael were the saints. Theangels who were with the Dragon were the powers of Rome.
4. Thepower of the dragon is defeated. This is not talking about Satan's expulsionfrom heaven. This is talking about his defeat in his war against the saints. Hecould not overcome them. “Andthere was no longer a place found for them in heaven. And the great dragon wasthrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan,who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth,and his angels were thrown down with him. Then I heard a loud voice in heaven,saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God andthe authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of ourbrethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day andnight.” The power of this governmenthas collapsed. Hence the expression “thrown down to the earth.” This isthe same imagery we saw in 9:1 with the star in heaven that had fallen to theearth representing a removal of authority or a fall of power. Not only is Satana defeated power but his angels (the powers of Rome) are a defeated power. Thisdoes not necessarily suggest a destruction of the nation of Rome or its armies.This in not what the scene is about. This is revealing the fact that Satan andthe persecuting powers of Rome have been defeated by the saints. The saintscould not be overcome by the powers of persecution. Rather, they had overcomethe persecutors even in their deaths. "And theyovercame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of theword of their testimony, and they did not love their life evenwhen faced with death (Victorious martyrs). "For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth (Israel)and the sea (Rome), because the devil has come down to you, havinggreat wrath, knowing that he has only a short time,”11-12.The antecedent of 'they' is Michael and his angels. They were able to overcomeby the blood of the Lamb and by their testimony. Testimony – preaching of thegospel is their angelic function. They are the messengers of the gospel. Theirphysical fate was their confrontation with death. The length of time allottedto the Devil is the 1260 days, the 42 months, the 3 and one-half years.

E. Theremnant is preserved from the judgment of Israel, 13-17.
The war against the nation of Israel is represented in two fronts;the war against unbelieving Israel and the war against the faithful remnant. “And when the dragonsaw that he was thrown down to the earth, (The destruction of Satan's power, Hebrews 2:14) he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. Butthe two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, sothat she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where shewas nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. (Delivered from the destruction ofJerusalem). And the serpent poured water like ariver out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be sweptaway with the flood. (Flood of persecution by Rome). But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouthand drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. So, the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children,who keep the commandments of God and hold to thetestimony of Jesus.” (Christians)
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