Manifest Sons of God doctrine

[JamesChen]

Hi Guys,

Ok let me try to explain my point here which would explain my earlier post. Firstly, because of the love and grace of God and his commandments, I no longer judge others in a heart which is seeking myself hence I have no assumptions on anyone really. The web literature you read is not Truth, so you always only believe Truth. Truth is a person, His Name is Jesus Christ of Nazareth. He said judge not lest yea be judged, remove the beam in your own eye before you talk about the speck in your brother's eye. I believe it is to safeguard us from stepping out of love. Love is so important because God is love and we were created in his image. Jesus came to reveal that image. Loving others is also the second commandment. It ought to be in priority and a reality in a Christian's life. Before having anything else in your heart. Everyone agrees so far?

This means I cant view anybody negatively without confirming it with them. I cant think the worst of people. It shouldn't be easy to find fault or nit pick others but it should be easy to go out of my way to help others and to have compassion on others. That being said, I believe if you do not judge alleged false teachings because they are from false teachers and a false movement. That's a big thing to be honest because according to this website - New Apostolic Reformation: influence and teachings they are a large movement with a huge outreach into various parts of the world. You will be judging many people and if it is a movement of God, you'll be judging it as well! See why it is important to approach this innocent and pure?

Ok lets move on... I've heard the video in the link and to be honest... I really think there's some prejudice from the blogger. (the title speaks for itself). Is this Kris Valloton saying a Christian do not sin or a Christ should not sin? No where did the video say that if a Christian sins... he is not a sinner. Honestly, if you hear his teaching, he is encouraging the congregation never to give in to sin again because the old man has died in Christ. Expressed in the symbolic act of faith via baptism.

Ok I read further into this believe it has been a debate since 1700s with John Wesley (founder of the methodist movement) questioning the sin nature of man. However, I'm not a big fan of theology simply because it just makes my head spin and I believe the gospel and the Word was never to be complicated but simple enough for a child to understand the Kingdom of God. Being sophisticated just means being worldly complicated to me.

Anyway, let us consider what was written in the Word. Sin appears the most in the book of Romans. Particularly chapter 6 after Chapter has explained our justification.

6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to remain in sin so that grace may increase?
Because earlier in the letter, Paul wrote where sin abound, grace abounds more so. This comes across to me simply as this... Shall I remain to sin? to think of sin? to honour sin? to sin? to believe i can sin?

6:2 Absolutely not! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

God Forbid! How can we who died to Christ - the wages of sin is death (Paul said this earlier including the reason because all have sinned and fallen from God's glory - Sin came through Adam - so we died to sin and live to Christ.

6:3 Or do you not know that as many as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

Water baptism is symbolic of dying to sin. Christ died for sins, I have to die because I came through Adam.

6:4 Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death, in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may live a new life.
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We are now a new creation, reborned from above and by the Spirit. I don't believe this is talking about life after natural death.

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6:5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will certainly also be united in the likeness of his resurrection.[SUP] 2 [/SUP]

We are now united with Christ. One head, one body. We are all one in the body of Christ and Christ and the Father is One.

6:6 We know that[SUP] 3 [/SUP] our old man was crucified with him so that the body of sin would no longer dominate us, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

Sin has no dominion over me. No mastery, no effect. This means it used to dominate us, master over us and have an effect on us. But now I'm free! I'm no longer its slave! It doesn't sound like we should have a sinful nature should we?

6:7 (For someone who has died has been freed from sin.)[SUP] 5 [/SUP]
6:8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

It's no longer I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me!

6:9 We know[SUP] 6 [/SUP] that since Christ has been raised from the dead, he is never going to die[SUP] 7 [/SUP] again; death no longer has mastery over him. 6:10 For the death he died, he died to sin once for all, but the life he lives, he lives to God.

It is finished! His death on the cross is enough for me and I accept that and receive it.

6:11 So you too consider yourselves[SUP] 8 [/SUP] dead to sin, but[SUP] 9 [/SUP] alive to God in Christ Jesus.

His death demonstrated His love for me. His sacrifice was enough.. a silent lamb. He who had no sin! was made to be sin. I accept this and receive Christ and my new life is to God and for God in Christ Jesus. I consider myself dead to sin. Humility and love freely receives this and free gives this. It would be diffcult to receive this if you can achieve this by the law.


6:12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its desires,

Sin do not reign in me! I will not obey sin ! I will no respond to sin! I would not struggle, contemplate, consider, believe in Sin. But now I am alive in God! I don't have to try hard , bite my lips and concentrate hard not to sin... why ? because I'm free! It doesn't dominate me like it used to!

6:13 and do not present your members to sin as instruments[SUP] 10 [/SUP] to be used for unrighteousness,[SUP] 11 [/SUP] but present yourselves to God as those who are alive from the dead and your members to God as instruments[SUP] 12 [/SUP] to be used for righteousness. 6:14 For sin will have no mastery over you, because you are not under law but under grace

I believe Paul didnt believe that born again Christians would have a sinful nature?
[h=3]6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Absolutely not!

Why would you? What you thought was normal is now disgusting... what will I do with it now? It's exposed for the deception and junk that it is. What have I to do with it?

6:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves[SUP] 13 [/SUP] as obedient slaves,[SUP] 14 [/SUP] you are slaves of the one you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or obedience resulting in righteousness?[SUP] 15 [/SUP]

I can be a slave of righteousness?

6:17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves to sin, you obeyed[SUP] 16 [/SUP] from the heart that pattern[SUP] 17 [/SUP] of teaching you were entrusted to, 6:18 and having been freed from sin, you became enslaved to righteousness.

I'm free now? I no longer have to sin? I can now be a slave of righteounsess? That's fantastic. God's amazing!

6:19 (I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh.)[SUP] 18 [/SUP] For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification. 6:20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free with regard to righteousness.[/h]
6:21 So what benefit[SUP] 19 [/SUP] did you then reap[SUP] 20 [/SUP] from those things that you are now ashamed of? For the end of those things is death.

I now see Sin as what it is...and dislike it. What was normal and pleasurable is now disgusting and revolting. It was my nature to be sarcastic but now I see that it violates my heart because out of the fullness of heart, my tongue speaks. I no longer derive the pleasure of being ironic and condescending towards others. Why? because they have value and Christ lives in me. Truth is in me. My yes is yes and my no is no. There is only One Way One Truth and One life and now He is in me and I'm alive in and through Him. I'm a new man! New wineskins! Enslaved to righteousness because Sin looks so so foreign now.. even to the point of dead in its grip and pull.

6:22 But now, freed[SUP] 21 [/SUP] from sin and enslaved to God, you have your benefit[SUP] 22 [/SUP] leading to sanctification, and the end is eternal life. 6:23 For the payoff[SUP] 23 [/SUP] of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Sorry I'll stop here. Just getting overwhelmed writing my heart here. It's incredible. Jesus is amazing and Lord. His love for us and the Father's grace. I'm redeemed through His amazing grace. Going to need to spend some quiet time with the Father now in thankfulness.

Again, I'm advocating judging doctrine itself -- not what is in individual people's hearts. I don't know where anyone else stands with God. However, I can look at someone's doctrine and say that it is false doctrine. I can say that the teaching is theologically dangerous. I can say that it can and does lead some people astray.


I guess if you have listened to several sermons by Bill Johnson and do not see anything wrong with his theology, then nothing that I will show you will make much difference.
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If you talk to any student at the Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry (or whatever it is called), they will indeed tell you that Christians cannot sin. When Jesus Culture recorded a song version of the Lord's Prayer, they left out the lines that refer to us sinning.

They do teach that a Christian cannot sin.

Heresy Alert!!! Bethel Church, , Bill Johnson, Kris Vallotton, new Apostolic Reformation, Word Of Faith Falsely Teach Christians Do Not Sin! | The Shepherd/Guardian

 

[Arwen4CJ]

Do we discuss the things of Christ so WE may be right? Or that HE may be right!!.

That we may see His truth and have a proper understanding.

What is the Holy Spirit telling you? and not your Logic, reasoning etc etc..

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Honestly? That we live in a time where there is a lot of false teaching, and where people have accepted tradition (whether it is recent tradition or newly taught tradition in a particular church or movement of the church or denomination), and that many are being deceived now, and will be deceived.

But i do say that evenwhen we think that The churches you go to are correct in ALL the theology, you will soon get to know with the Help of the Holy SPIRIT the blantant LIES that some of the doctrines they have is false.

I never claimed to go to a church that was correct in all the theology. No church like that exists. No church teaches perfect theology. No denomination has perfect theology. No person has perfect theology.

I mean look up the following features and measure up your church or your doctrine with:
2Co 3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

1) Does the Holy Spirit move in your church? Prophesying exists? Speaking Tongues and other Manifestations of the Holy Spirit?

There are many gifts of the Holy Spirit, and there are many definitions of these gifts. The Holy Spirit moves in other ways -- not just in signs and wonders. What is much more telling of whether or not the Holy Spirit moves in a church is whether or not the real gospel is preached.

The spiritual gifts can be counterfeited, and so the presence of these things doesn't necessarily indicate that the real Holy Spirit is moving in a particular church.

2) Do they preach doctrines that draws man to GOD through Christ or draw man to theology?

That is a false dichotomy, as if theology isn't present when people are drawn to Christ. The real question should be whether or not the doctrine is sound, according to the whole counsel of Scripture, and not just based on a few verses or passages that are taken out of context.

3) Is the Church growing in DISCIPLES?

Numbers don't necessarily indicate the health of a church. So, yes, are the people who are coming into the church being spiritually fed with the truth, or are they just seen as numbers? But even a church that is solidly teaching the truth might not be growing a whole lot. In fact, some people might leave it in favor of a church that preaches things that tickle their ears.

But, of those that do come into the church, yes....the question is, are people actually being taught according to sound doctrine, and are they truly growing as disciples of Jesus Christ?

4) Are people meeting GOD?

Jesus said that where two or more are gathered in His name, He is with them. So, if the doctrine is sound, and people have gathered to worship Him, then, yes, people are going to meet Him. Anywhere where He is worshiped in spirit and in truth people will meet Him.

5) Do people see the fruit of their works in The Lords House?

If it is a church has sound doctrine, then the fruit and works will follow.

6) Has your Church turned into a den of thieves?
7) Do you hold on to Religious doctrines whereby in them does not HELP YOU AT ALL to be free of Sin?

The question isn't whether or not doctrine makes us feel good about ourselves. The question is whether or not the doctrine is sound.

8) Is there LIFE in those doctrines?

If it is sound doctrine, then yes.....

9) Are the members Growing more Religious(trapped by the law) or Christ?

Religious vs. spiritual is another false dichotomy. If the doctrine is sound, they will be growing closer to Christ.

Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
10) Are people living double lives? Is the Fear of GOD ever present in the House of GOD?

And is God being revered, valued, seen as holy, treated as holy, etc.? Or do people see God as a big buddy with whom they can hang out with and party with, treating Him irreverently?

11) Is there Brotherly Love

Again, this always follows the truth....

12) Are the gifts of Evangelism, Pastors, Prophets, Teaching present?
13) and much moreeee

The Holy Spirit gives people gifts just as He chooses, so He will equip people as He sees fit.

If it is a new church, then yes some of those who would not be there, but if it is a old church, then there something ye are not doing right. Either it is the pastor, or the Doctrine. And the pastor is the doctrine.

As the word of God says

He will hit the Shepherd so that the Sheep may scatter.

Hit the shepherd with Lies and You will have a flesh view of things, where there is NO HOLY SPIRIT, OR TRUTH. Just plain old theology that can kill people or stunt their Growth of CHRIST and close relationship with the HOLY SPIRIT..

Sound doctrine will never stunt anyone's growth in Christ, nor will it hinder the Holy Spirit's work in the church and in individual people's lives.