Martin Luther - There's Something About Mary
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Luther, like the Pope, or the Dalai Lamas, Zoroastrain teachers or Muslim scholars or atheists or scientists or Albert Einstein's abnormally large brain, has his own perception of the bible and religion, just like the approximate 42,000 denominations of Christianity, and the countless spin-offs of such, along with a seven billion people who relate different things to the bible, to Jesus, to religion and to God.
People are usually always so sure that their religion is correct, that they know the facts, or that they are walking the right path. Yet here we are, seven billion of us all walking slightly, or vastly, different paths.
People believe what they believe and 'know' what they know, really.
The whole state of being, of having conscious thought, is entirely, completely, immaculately subjective and that's what makes there few things that are true for all except, for one thing, that total subjectivity of thought itself.
Even this is my own view, that can be tangled, manipulated, twisted, taken in different context, redefined, swung, belittled and subjected to scrutiny.
See the problem?
People are usually always so sure that their religion is correct, that they know the facts, or that they are walking the right path. Yet here we are, seven billion of us all walking slightly, or vastly, different paths.
People believe what they believe and 'know' what they know, really.
The whole state of being, of having conscious thought, is entirely, completely, immaculately subjective and that's what makes there few things that are true for all except, for one thing, that total subjectivity of thought itself.
Even this is my own view, that can be tangled, manipulated, twisted, taken in different context, redefined, swung, belittled and subjected to scrutiny.
See the problem?
I mean, what really, is the truth?
If I'd been born in Iraq I'd have a completely different view on the truth than being born in Ireland. That just highlights the complete subjectivity of life.
And what we (humanity) do is search for boundaries and boxes, so we can process it all and fit it somewhere neatly for ourselves without our heads exploding at truly realizing the entire infinity of the diversity of thought, which is something most people never understand.
There is nothing that's black and white, because it all depends on the process that forms that thought. 'Jesus died on the cross', but how that is colored in someone's thoughts is never the same for two people.
For me, that's actually a beauty of life, not something that needs quashed.
If I'd been born in Iraq I'd have a completely different view on the truth than being born in Ireland. That just highlights the complete subjectivity of life.
And what we (humanity) do is search for boundaries and boxes, so we can process it all and fit it somewhere neatly for ourselves without our heads exploding at truly realizing the entire infinity of the diversity of thought, which is something most people never understand.
There is nothing that's black and white, because it all depends on the process that forms that thought. 'Jesus died on the cross', but how that is colored in someone's thoughts is never the same for two people.
For me, that's actually a beauty of life, not something that needs quashed.
If someone were to ask me what the truth was, I'd tell them 'That's something I can't decide for you'. And I hear hard-line Christians saying 'well that's deciding your own truth', and I say to them 'and how do you know that you are true then, and I am false?'
The only truth for me right now is that I am on a computer. Truth cannot be a mental process or a 'view', not really, because all views and mental processes are entirely different. Only arrogance says that 'I am true and you are false' (at least where normal humans are concerned).
The truth is much simpler than all of that. The truth, the pure reality, is the moment, and only the moment.
The truth is, I'm typing on a computer with my mouse, and the wind is flowing through my window right now. That's indisputable because that's what is happening right now.
The truth is there is a guitar beside me.
Everything else is subjective to a personal process, speculation, expectation, theory, emotion and attachment, which are all individual to each person. But there are things that groups of people share, that are then deemed 'true' to that group, hence 42,000 Christian denominations.
So what's the real question? (which is even subjective to the person's motive and desire).
Is it:
1. So how do we get along?
2. So how to we rationalize that?
3. So how do we come to a consensus?
4. So how do we know what to do?
?? Depends what you want. What you desire. The motive and what you expect.
Nothing is totally non-personal. The whole world is interconnected in this respect. Outside influence. Motive. Experience. Expectation. etc etc.
The only truth for me right now is that I am on a computer. Truth cannot be a mental process or a 'view', not really, because all views and mental processes are entirely different. Only arrogance says that 'I am true and you are false' (at least where normal humans are concerned).
The truth is much simpler than all of that. The truth, the pure reality, is the moment, and only the moment.
The truth is, I'm typing on a computer with my mouse, and the wind is flowing through my window right now. That's indisputable because that's what is happening right now.
The truth is there is a guitar beside me.
Everything else is subjective to a personal process, speculation, expectation, theory, emotion and attachment, which are all individual to each person. But there are things that groups of people share, that are then deemed 'true' to that group, hence 42,000 Christian denominations.
So what's the real question? (which is even subjective to the person's motive and desire).
Is it:
1. So how do we get along?
2. So how to we rationalize that?
3. So how do we come to a consensus?
4. So how do we know what to do?
?? Depends what you want. What you desire. The motive and what you expect.
Nothing is totally non-personal. The whole world is interconnected in this respect. Outside influence. Motive. Experience. Expectation. etc etc.
Reality is reality and an opinion is an opinion. Simply because there are multitudes of opinions among mankind in no way makes truth subjective. All that demonstrates is that people are very easily led into error because contradictory opinions cannot all be true, thus most opinions must logically be in error.
Thus it is imperative for any individual to be very diligent in regards to their search for truth, and not only that but they must be honest and sincere in order to not impose a subjective opinion upon that which they perceive and thus bend reality in the mind in order support an opinion.
The teaching of Jesus Christ are very simple. Stop doing evil and yield to God. God has revealed truth to all human beings via His grace appearing to all men through the light of conscience as well as through the testimony of His messengers.
Truth can be known. The question is about who is willing to submit to it?
If one rejects truth then that one will believe a lie. The human mind easily formulates an image of reality in order to soothe the conscience whereby one worships that. One can also choose to believe that truth is unknowable and simply live for the moment. Both of those paths are forms of self deception wrought via a lack of diligence and honesty.
Without faith it is impossible to please God for God is a rewarder of those who DILIGENTLY seek Him. if one loves the world and the things in the world and stubbornly refuses to forsake all in order to purchase that pearl of great price, not only will they never purchase that pearl, they will never find it.
Thus it is imperative for any individual to be very diligent in regards to their search for truth, and not only that but they must be honest and sincere in order to not impose a subjective opinion upon that which they perceive and thus bend reality in the mind in order support an opinion.
The teaching of Jesus Christ are very simple. Stop doing evil and yield to God. God has revealed truth to all human beings via His grace appearing to all men through the light of conscience as well as through the testimony of His messengers.
Truth can be known. The question is about who is willing to submit to it?
If one rejects truth then that one will believe a lie. The human mind easily formulates an image of reality in order to soothe the conscience whereby one worships that. One can also choose to believe that truth is unknowable and simply live for the moment. Both of those paths are forms of self deception wrought via a lack of diligence and honesty.
Without faith it is impossible to please God for God is a rewarder of those who DILIGENTLY seek Him. if one loves the world and the things in the world and stubbornly refuses to forsake all in order to purchase that pearl of great price, not only will they never purchase that pearl, they will never find it.
Mat 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
That little tiny word 'till' proves that Joseph did "know" ie) had relations with Mary after she gave birth to Jesus.
By the way I do not trace my theological roots to Martin Luther who had serious theological problems. I trace my theological roots through the ancient Waldenses who traced there roots all the way back to the Apostles, and were horrifically persecuted for what they believed Revelation chapter 17 referred to.
Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
That little tiny word 'till' proves that Joseph did "know" ie) had relations with Mary after she gave birth to Jesus.
By the way I do not trace my theological roots to Martin Luther who had serious theological problems. I trace my theological roots through the ancient Waldenses who traced there roots all the way back to the Apostles, and were horrifically persecuted for what they believed Revelation chapter 17 referred to.
D
Maynard, There is one huge difference between protestant pastor scandals above you posted and the Catholic Church scandals. The RCC did not hand over these pedophile priests to the police and defrock them. Instead they swept it under the carpet and moved the pedophile priest to a new parish where in many cases they again molested children. Pedophiles are in all walks of life but to not immediately hand them over to the police is the heart of the scandal with in the RCC. This is why those cardinals, like Mahoney and Law, should also be defrocked and punished along with child rapping preists.
D
I am offended by the picture of mary and even this thread. I am not a catholic and never will be. The focus of my faith is on God not on sinful human beings like Mary and other saints how needed to be saved from their sins. It offends me to see catholics call Mary the "co-redemptrix of our salvation" as this title nearly elevates her to the point of a goddess. I am sure Mary is very offended by such pagan adoration.
I once considered becoming a catholic but in the end rejected it and still fully reject it.
I once considered becoming a catholic but in the end rejected it and still fully reject it.
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Wrong again. Protestant churches are guilty of the same crime, and far more frequently, especially these days.
Again, you can find countless stories of Protestant congregations protecting pastors charged with sex crimes.
Here's one from just today...
Victim group demands apology, as church backs pastor arrested for child sex abuse
The leader of a group of child sexual abuse victims on Tuesday demanded an apology from supporters of a Richmond pastor charged with sexually assaulting two young girls in Texas.
Aguilar, who remained in a Fort Worth, Texas, jail as of Tuesday afternoon, has been charged by the Tarrant County District Attorney’s Office in two cases with four counts of aggravated sexual assault of a child younger than 14, which are first-degree felonies that carry a sentence of up to life in prison.
He also has been charged with two counts of sexual assault of a child, which are second-degree felonies that carry up to 20 years in prison, and one charge of indecency with a child, also a second-degree felony.
Jason W. Helmlinger, 41, a former Henrico County police officer, was also charged in making threats against a critic of Aguilar, the South Richmond megachurch’s senior pastor.
Victim group demands apology, as church backs pastor arrested for child sex abuse - Richmond Times Dispatch: Local
Again, you can find countless stories of Protestant congregations protecting pastors charged with sex crimes.
Here's one from just today...
Victim group demands apology, as church backs pastor arrested for child sex abuse
The leader of a group of child sexual abuse victims on Tuesday demanded an apology from supporters of a Richmond pastor charged with sexually assaulting two young girls in Texas.
Aguilar, who remained in a Fort Worth, Texas, jail as of Tuesday afternoon, has been charged by the Tarrant County District Attorney’s Office in two cases with four counts of aggravated sexual assault of a child younger than 14, which are first-degree felonies that carry a sentence of up to life in prison.
He also has been charged with two counts of sexual assault of a child, which are second-degree felonies that carry up to 20 years in prison, and one charge of indecency with a child, also a second-degree felony.
Jason W. Helmlinger, 41, a former Henrico County police officer, was also charged in making threats against a critic of Aguilar, the South Richmond megachurch’s senior pastor.
Victim group demands apology, as church backs pastor arrested for child sex abuse - Richmond Times Dispatch: Local
Very well said!
Truth is not subjective. It is NOT what we make of it ourselves, as some on this board, including Ephraim, apparently believe, unfortunately.
Truth is objective.
Be careful, Ephraim. You sound just like someone we are all familiar with just before he handed our Lord over to be murdered..
Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. For this I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the TRUTH. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to my voice.” Pilate asked him, “What is truth?”
(John 18: 37-38)
Truth is not subjective. It is NOT what we make of it ourselves, as some on this board, including Ephraim, apparently believe, unfortunately.
Truth is objective.
Be careful, Ephraim. You sound just like someone we are all familiar with just before he handed our Lord over to be murdered..
Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. For this I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the TRUTH. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to my voice.” Pilate asked him, “What is truth?”
(John 18: 37-38)
Why do you think all non-Catholics follow Martin Luther? LOL, judgmental much? I have never even bothered to read any of Luther's treatises.
As far as the "scandal" at the ROC goes, I live near Richmond. No one at the ROC covered anything up or moved Aguilar to a new district. They are merely saying they believe him to be innocent of the allegations, which date from well before he was at the ROC.
As far as the "scandal" at the ROC goes, I live near Richmond. No one at the ROC covered anything up or moved Aguilar to a new district. They are merely saying they believe him to be innocent of the allegations, which date from well before he was at the ROC.
G
Besides the verses already quoted, here is another one that implies that Mary was not a virgin after Jesus's birth:
Mat 1:24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife,
Mat 1:25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS.
Mat 1:24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife,
Mat 1:25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS.
Another illogical common Protestant argument. The conjunction "until" in Scriptural usage expresses what has occurred up to a certain point, and leaves the future aside. Thus God says in the book of Isaiah: "I am till you grow old" (Isaiah 46:4). Are we to infer that God would then cease to be? Of course not! Again, God says to His Divine Son: "Sit Thou on My right hand until I make Thy enemies Thy foot-stool" (Psalm 109:1). Will the Messiah, once His enemies are subdued, relinquish His place of honor? Absolutely NOT!
St. Matthew's principal aim was to tell his readers that Christ's birth was miraculous and that Joseph had no part in the conception of Mary's child. His statement is confined to this point.
Why worship Mary? She was chosen by God to be the vessel through which Messiah would enter into this world. Mother of God in a sense she provided the body but surely she was not the mother of God in that God is eternal and Mary was not.
There is only one mediator between man and God and that is the God-man Christ Jesus. 1 Tim 2:5
We are not to worship anyone except God.
Somebody didn't read the thread about starting threads that generate only strife and division. Perhaps CC needs to create a forum for this kind of thread. Controversial and political topics all could go there.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
There is only one mediator between man and God and that is the God-man Christ Jesus. 1 Tim 2:5
We are not to worship anyone except God.
Somebody didn't read the thread about starting threads that generate only strife and division. Perhaps CC needs to create a forum for this kind of thread. Controversial and political topics all could go there.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Until you see the deification of Mary is just the continuum of the 'Queen of Heaven' brought in with the Chaldean Priests when Christianity was made the state religion of the Roman empire, there is no hope for you regarding this subject.
Jesus loved Mary.
I love Mary.
Every christian loves Mary.
We all can't wait to meet her, ....we just don't make a god out of her.
Jesus loved Mary.
I love Mary.
Every christian loves Mary.
We all can't wait to meet her, ....we just don't make a god out of her.