Mary Queen of Hearts and the Seven Swords

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Feb 15, 2014
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#21
That is a Catholic devotional. I’ll pass.
Correct, its bases on rrc teachings.
I am not shure that we need this picture to understand what God did for and through Mary. Also this picture implyes her as queen of heaven. Which means an pagan figure.
This irritates, because many directions today try to combine all religions together (ekomene)
 
Jun 25, 2024
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#22
Correct, its bases on rrc teachings.
I am not shure that we need this picture to understand what God did for and through Mary. Also this picture implyes her as queen of heaven. Which means an pagan figure.
This irritates, because many directions today try to combine all religions together (ekomene)
The portrayal of Mary as a queen in the artwork depicting her and the seven swords of sorrow is as Queen of Hearts rather than Quuen of Heaven which is a whole other thematic and motif in Christian high art. Again the artwork as well as story of Mary Queen of Hearts and the Seven Swords is a universally Christian theme, while it is found in the Catholics it is not exclusive to them as the theme is also found in Eastern Orthodoxy and can comply well with mainstream Protestantism since the episode and story is derived solely from the Bible rather than from any extrabiblical tradition. The overall point of the study and lesson is in both Mary's transcendent quality as a particularly blessed woman above all women but at the same time it shows Mary's humanity and the sorrows she had to suffer for her faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
 

rrcn

Active member
Oct 15, 2023
286
90
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#23
The portrayal of Mary as a queen in the artwork depicting her and the seven swords of sorrow is as Queen of Hearts rather than Quuen of Heaven which is a whole other thematic and motif in Christian high art. Again the artwork as well as story of Mary Queen of Hearts and the Seven Swords is a universally Christian theme, while it is found in the Catholics it is not exclusive to them as the theme is also found in Eastern Orthodoxy and can comply well with mainstream Protestantism since the episode and story is derived solely from the Bible rather than from any extrabiblical tradition. The overall point of the study and lesson is in both Mary's transcendent quality as a particularly blessed woman above all women but at the same time it shows Mary's humanity and the sorrows she had to suffer for her faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
In Catholic theology, the position of Mary is highly significant and is detailed extensively in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Here are some key points, why not take a look:

  1. Mother of God: Mary is honored as the Mother of God (Theotokos), which underscores her role in the divine plan of salvation. This title was affirmed at the Council of Ephesus in 431 AD1.
  2. Immaculate Conception: According to Catholic doctrine, Mary was conceived without original sin. This belief highlights her purity and special role in God’s plan2.
  3. Perpetual Virginity: The Church teaches that Mary remained a virgin before, during, and after the birth of Jesus2.
  4. Assumption: Catholics believe that Mary was assumed body and soul into heaven at the end of her earthly life. This doctrine was dogmatically defined by Pope Pius XII in 19502.
  5. Mediatrix and Advocate: Mary is seen as an intercessor who prays for the faithful and mediates graces from God. She is also referred to as the "Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix"3.
  6. Model of Faith and Obedience: Mary is considered a model of faith and obedience to God. Her “yes” to God’s plan is seen as a pivotal moment in salvation history.
 
Jun 25, 2024
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#24
In Catholic theology, the position of Mary is highly significant and is detailed extensively in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Here are some key points, why not take a look:

  1. Mother of God: Mary is honored as the Mother of God (Theotokos), which underscores her role in the divine plan of salvation. This title was affirmed at the Council of Ephesus in 431 AD1.
  2. Immaculate Conception: According to Catholic doctrine, Mary was conceived without original sin. This belief highlights her purity and special role in God’s plan2.
  3. Perpetual Virginity: The Church teaches that Mary remained a virgin before, during, and after the birth of Jesus2.
  4. Assumption: Catholics believe that Mary was assumed body and soul into heaven at the end of her earthly life. This doctrine was dogmatically defined by Pope Pius XII in 19502.
  5. Mediatrix and Advocate: Mary is seen as an intercessor who prays for the faithful and mediates graces from God. She is also referred to as the "Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix"3.
  6. Model of Faith and Obedience: Mary is considered a model of faith and obedience to God. Her “yes” to God’s plan is seen as a pivotal moment in salvation history.
Out of this really only the first point and the last point I think is valid and biblical, with the second point somewhat wonky, but perhaps that's for a whole other cliche topic about the nature of original sin/total depravity. Again, Mary as Queen of Hearts and the Seven Swords is not exclusive to the Catholics, though indeed they do observe this story about Mary probably for the reasonings of Marian devotion just like the Orthodox also contain this artwork theme and observe the story probably for reasonings on iconography. I say probably since I am not a member of their denominations, and so my interest is in the study of the Bible of which the artwork and theme is indeed biblical as I will continue to demonstrate. To be clear the topic is not to be about doctrines pertaining to Mary but rather a specific theme in artwork and its biblical story which can be appreciated by all valid Christian denominations.
 

montana123

Well-known member
Oct 9, 2021
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#25
Sometimes referred to as Our Lady of Sorrows, Mary Queen of Hearts and the Seven Swords is a common motiff in high Christian art. Typically this style of artwork depicts Mary holding either a flaming or glowing heart that is pierced by either one or seven swords. The seven swords represent seven sorrows that Mary had to go through in the Bible.

So I thought it would be a fun study of both high Christian artwork as well as the Bible here. The intention of this topic is then to spruce things up from the usual debates amd episodes of the Bible with a meatier biblical topic, to post high intellectual Christian artwork, discuss the seven swords of sorrow, and discover the fundamental humanity of Mary that is shown in the sorrows she had to suffer for her son and our Lord Jesus Christ.

God said He does not give His glory to another.

People cannot exalt Mary, and the Pope.

Mat 12:46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
Mat 12:47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
Mat 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
Mat 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Luk 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
Luk 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Jesus did not exalt Mary but put her in the same category as all the saints.

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Mar 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Christ is the head of the Church, and they should not call the Pope Holy Father.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
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#26
It's nice we finally have a thread devoted to Mariolatry in the full Roman Catholic tradition.


I'm having a bit of a problem with this... please pray to Mary and ask her to help me.

.
 

Eli1

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2022
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#27
It's nice we finally have a thread devoted to Mariolatry in the full Roman Catholic tradition.


I'm having a bit of a problem with this... please pray to Mary and ask her to help me.

.
I will open a thread titled "Other denominations answer questions for Protestants" to help you guys up with your allergic reaction to the Catholic Church and we can leave this thread dedicated to artwork as the OP wanted.

In fact, i found another thread actually about Mary, so i'll continue there. (y)
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,512
2,582
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#28
I will open a thread titled "Other denominations answer questions for Protestants" to help you guys up with your allergic reaction to the Catholic Church and we can leave this thread dedicated to artwork as the OP wanted.

In fact, i found another thread actually about Mary, so i'll continue there. (y)
Show me any verse in scripture where Mary is called a queen... any kind of queen... any verse.

I'll wait.


.
 

rrcn

Active member
Oct 15, 2023
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90
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#29
I will open a thread titled "Other denominations answer questions for Protestants" to help you guys up with your allergic reaction to the Catholic Church and we can leave this thread dedicated to artwork as the OP wanted.

In fact, i found another thread actually about Mary, so i'll continue there. (y)
The OP used art as his cover while introducing a damnable heresy of Catholic origin. Worship Jesus, the pope and all his pedophile priest have no power to forgive sin.
 
Jun 25, 2024
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#31
Well to answer these people's digressions trying to pull the thread in all sorts of different chaotic directions. Again the thread is universally open for any Christians as the subject is a universally Christian theme that is not exclusive to any one denomination. Granted it is a more advanced topic that really only Christians who have graduated from drinking milk can probably even begin to comprehend. Hence in the OP I allude to it being a meatier topic, my apologies I should have been more explicit. So to clarify this is a topic for people that are already Christians and also who are graduated from the milk, which are the very basics of Christianity, and they are ready for meat, which are the more intermediate studies of the faith.
 
Jun 25, 2024
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#32
At any rate let us continue now with the fourth sword of sorrow. The fourth sword of sorrow is Mary seeing Jesus' trial and then his sentence, and him being led away to be crucified. This is interesting because Mary is not explicitly mentioned though it is implicit that she is present as she will be present in the next sorrow. Another interesting thing to consider with this is that really the whole time at the trial of Jesus while the wicked are accusing Jesus of this thing or that thing, really only Mary knows the full truth here, she knows that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, and so she knows fully well that Jesus is in fact the Son of God. One has to think what sorrow this is as not only is she witnessing her son being condemned to death based off chaotic and sometimes contradictory false accusations, which alone as a mother that has to be pretty hard to bear. But on top of her human sorrow one has to kinda think about how she knows for certainty Jesus is God's Son and what sort of sorrow she is feeling when witnessing her people essentially perjuring themselves and condemning not only Mary's innocent son, but really they are condemning their own God. The street by which Jesus was led and meets Mary on is named Via Dolorosa, and the Catholics and Orthodox regard the specific 4th sword of sorrow as taking place at the 4th station of the cross on the Via Dolorosa.



Luke 23:20-31

20 Pilate therefore, willing to release Jesus, spake again to them.
21 But they cried, saying, Crucify him, crucify him.
22 And he said unto them the third time, Why, what evil hath he done? I have found no cause of death in him: I will therefore chastise him, and let him go.
23 And they were instant with loud voices, requiring that he might be crucified. And the voices of them and of the chief priests prevailed.
24 And Pilate gave sentence that it should be as they required.
25 And he released unto them him that for sedition and murder was cast into prison, whom they had desired; but he delivered Jesus to their will.
26 And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus.
27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.
28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.
31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?


 
Feb 15, 2014
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#33
The portrayal of Mary as a queen in the artwork depicting her and the seven swords of sorrow is as Queen of Hearts rather than Quuen of Heaven which is a whole other thematic and motif in Christian high art. Again the artwork as well as story of Mary Queen of Hearts and the Seven Swords is a universally Christian theme, while it is found in the Catholics it is not exclusive to them as the theme is also found in Eastern Orthodoxy and can comply well with mainstream Protestantism since the episode and story is derived solely from the Bible rather than from any extrabiblical tradition. The overall point of the study and lesson is in both Mary's transcendent quality as a particularly blessed woman above all women but at the same time it shows Mary's humanity and the sorrows she had to suffer for her faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
I come from mainstream protestantism background. There this picture from Mary plays no role.
It is purly from the rcc teaching.
 
Feb 15, 2014
3,688
909
113
61
#34
The portrayal of Mary as a queen in the artwork depicting her and the seven swords of sorrow is as Queen of Hearts rather than Quuen of Heaven which is a whole other thematic and motif in Christian high art. Again the artwork as well as story of Mary Queen of Hearts and the Seven Swords is a universally Christian theme, while it is found in the Catholics it is not exclusive to them as the theme is also found in Eastern Orthodoxy and can comply well with mainstream Protestantism since the episode and story is derived solely from the Bible rather than from any extrabiblical tradition. The overall point of the study and lesson is in both Mary's transcendent quality as a particularly blessed woman above all women but at the same time it shows Mary's humanity and the sorrows she had to suffer for her faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Mary was a human and her sorrows and pains are not different to other mothers in concerning to their childrens.
That she was unique is undoubtet. But what people made from her has nothing to do with a biblical view.
 
Apr 21, 2021
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#35
Orthodox are Catholic too: Orthodox Catholic. They don't like being associated with Catholicism so they prefer Eastern Orthodox. But that doesn't change the fact they are two branches of the same tree: Eastern Catholicism and Western Catholicism.
 
Apr 21, 2021
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#36
Orthodox are Catholic too: Orthodox Catholic. They don't like being associated with Catholicism so they prefer Eastern Orthodox. But that doesn't change the fact they are two branches of the same tree: Eastern Catholicism and Western Catholicism.
Slight clarification. Eastern Orthodox wants to disassociate itself from Roman Catholicism, or Western Catholicism. They have no problem with being called Catholic though because that's their official name: Orthodox Catholic. But because of the stigma associated with Roman Catholicism most people just prefer to leave Catholic out of it. Orthodox Catholics still have many of the same beliefs and practices of their Western counterpart though; but there are differences as well.
 

rrcn

Active member
Oct 15, 2023
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#37
Well to answer these people's digressions trying to pull the thread in all sorts of different chaotic directions. Again the thread is universally open for any Christians as the subject is a universally Christian theme that is not exclusive to any one denomination. Granted it is a more advanced topic that really only Christians who have graduated from drinking milk can probably even begin to comprehend. Hence in the OP I allude to it being a meatier topic, my apologies I should have been more explicit. So to clarify this is a topic for people that are already Christians and also who are graduated from the milk, which are the very basics of Christianity, and they are ready for meat, which are the more intermediate studies of the faith.
You raise an interesting Biblical concept, milk vs. meat. I have done a little research into this theme through the Bible and feel it is helpful in identifying heresy and idolatry.
Bible study is an important prerequisite:
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
It appears that your reference is Hebews 12 - 14:
Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13 For every one that useth milk [is] unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both GOOD AND EVIL.

I know that the evil that I am detecting is idolatry and heresy. The Bible speaks to this inquite a few verses:
1Co 10:7, 14 7 Neither be ye idolaters, as [were] some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. ... 14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
Psa 135:15 15 The idols of the heathen [are] silver and gold, the work of men's hands.
Isa 2:8 Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made:
Eze 20:16, 24 16 Because they despised my judgments, and walked not in my statutes, but polluted my sabbaths: for their heart went after their idols. ... 24 Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.
Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
 
Jun 25, 2024
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#38
I come from mainstream protestantism background. There this picture from Mary plays no role.
It is purly from the rcc teaching.
Again, not purely from the RCC, Orthodox also contain this, and if you follow sola scriptura this should be acceptable as well to mainstream protestantism. Mainstream protestantism is defined as accepting the essential christian doctrines (ie: trinity, birth-life-crucifixion-resurrection of Jesus, that the Bible serves as the backbone of all religious teachings.)


Mary was a human and her sorrows and pains are not different to other mothers in concerning to their childrens.
That she was unique is undoubtet. But what people made from her has nothing to do with a biblical view.
Indeed! This is part of the study of the episode and art as it displays the humanity of Mary and that's one of the goals of the topic One can easily see and understand and even empathize with Mary in a really human quality. When I say she has a human quality I am not meaning that she is potentially not human, what I am meaning is in literature and in artwork the humanity of characters sometimes gets lost in the medium. The Seven Swords of Sorrow that Mary undergoes show us and remind us of her essential humanity. Now this is moreso what I'm looking for in this study than the endless circle about protestants vs. catholics vs orthodox.


Orthodox are Catholic too: Orthodox Catholic. They don't like being associated with Catholicism so they prefer Eastern Orthodox. But that doesn't change the fact they are two branches of the same tree: Eastern Catholicism and Western Catholicism.

Slight clarification. Eastern Orthodox wants to disassociate itself from Roman Catholicism, or Western Catholicism. They have no problem with being called Catholic though because that's their official name: Orthodox Catholic. But because of the stigma associated with Roman Catholicism most people just prefer to leave Catholic out of it. Orthodox Catholics still have many of the same beliefs and practices of their Western counterpart though; but there are differences as well.

Well yes I mean they did start off as the Early CHurch I think everyone knows this. Though in our time today they are now distinct entities and thus why they are referred to as distinct entities.


You raise an interesting Biblical concept, milk vs. meat. I have done a little research into this theme through the Bible and feel it is helpful in identifying heresy and idolatry.
Bible study is an important prerequisite:
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
It appears that your reference is Hebews 12 - 14:
Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13 For every one that useth milk [is] unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both GOOD AND EVIL.

I know that the evil that I am detecting is idolatry and heresy. The Bible speaks to this inquite a few verses:
1Co 10:7, 14 7 Neither be ye idolaters, as [were] some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. ... 14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
Psa 135:15 15 The idols of the heathen [are] silver and gold, the work of men's hands.
Isa 2:8 Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made:
Eze 20:16, 24 16 Because they despised my judgments, and walked not in my statutes, but polluted my sabbaths: for their heart went after their idols. ... 24 Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.
Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
I think you don't really know what heresy is. A heresy is a doctrine that is against the orthodoxy, in this case the orthodoxy is the Bible. In order to be a heresy none of this would be in the Bible or it would outright be in contradiction to the Bible. Since it is found in the Bible it is not a heresy, it is just merely a study into the Bible, albeit a more advanced study than the typical rumaging around the basics of Christianity since we already know these and accept the basics. As far as idolatry goes, all idols are understood to be false gods by their worshippers, this is what differentiates the golden calf from say the gold cherubim on the ark of the covenant. As such I would encourage you to not worship an idol and other gods since there is only one God whom is the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, not three gods, but one God in three persons.

At any rate I will conclude the study today and then we can descend into the various digressions and points that pretty much have nothing to do with the topic that some of you are trying to make.
 
Jun 25, 2024
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#39
The fifth Sword of Sorrow is then Mary witnessing the crucifixion of Jesus. This is an obvious sorrow for a mother as crucifixion is a very prolonged death, not an instant death. So it is easy to see Mary's sorrow here, not only does she have to witness the death of her son, a sorrow indeed for any mother, but she has to watch him suffer a slow and prolonged death at that, keeping in mind that Mary knows the full truth here that Jesus is indeed the Son of God. What's also interesting here is in some artwork or philosophy people ask the question "whatever happened to Mary?" Here we see the answer to this question as Jesus speaks to his mother for the last time and instructs the apostle John to take care of her. Since John is one of the foremost apostles we can conclude that this is how the various Gospel writers have access to knowledge about Jesus birth and early life since they would logically have access to Mary. In this sense Mary becomes the mother now to John and really to all of Christendom.



John 19:25-30

25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.
28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.



 

rrcn

Active member
Oct 15, 2023
286
90
28
#40
Again, not purely from the RCC, Orthodox also contain this, and if you follow sola scriptura this should be acceptable as well to mainstream protestantism. Mainstream protestantism is defined as accepting the essential christian doctrines (ie: trinity, birth-life-crucifixion-resurrection of Jesus, that the Bible serves as the backbone of all religious teachings.)




Indeed! This is part of the study of the episode and art as it displays the humanity of Mary and that's one of the goals of the topic One can easily see and understand and even empathize with Mary in a really human quality. When I say she has a human quality I am not meaning that she is potentially not human, what I am meaning is in literature and in artwork the humanity of characters sometimes gets lost in the medium. The Seven Swords of Sorrow that Mary undergoes show us and remind us of her essential humanity. Now this is moreso what I'm looking for in this study than the endless circle about protestants vs. catholics vs orthodox.








Well yes I mean they did start off as the Early CHurch I think everyone knows this. Though in our time today they are now distinct entities and thus why they are referred to as distinct entities.




I think you don't really know what heresy is. A heresy is a doctrine that is against the orthodoxy, in this case the orthodoxy is the Bible. In order to be a heresy none of this would be in the Bible or it would outright be in contradiction to the Bible. Since it is found in the Bible it is not a heresy, it is just merely a study into the Bible, albeit a more advanced study than the typical rumaging around the basics of Christianity since we already know these and accept the basics. As far as idolatry goes, all idols are understood to be false gods by their worshippers, this is what differentiates the golden calf from say the gold cherubim on the ark of the covenant. As such I would encourage you to not worship an idol and other gods since there is only one God whom is the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, not three gods, but one God in three persons.

At any rate I will conclude the study today and then we can descend into the various digressions and points that pretty much have nothing to do with the topic that some of you are trying to make.


The Bible addresses heresy and false teachings in several passages. Here are some relevant verses:
  1. 2 Peter 2:1 (KJV): “But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.”
  2. Galatians 1:6-7 (KJV): “I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.”
  3. 2 Timothy 4:3-4 (KJV): “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
  4. Hebrews 13:9 (KJV): “Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.