Mat 18:34 Who are the tormentors here?

[ISeeYou]

Just curious, who do each of you believe the tormentors are in Mat 18:34 unto whom Jesus said the Heavenly Father would hand one over to in this particular situation?

Things to note in the picture is, the servant was a forgiven one who became a wicked servant in not showing mercy on his fellowservant, and you can go back and read the whole thing

Starting here he asks,

Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

And because of his lack of mercy and compassion he is delivered to the tormentors

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

And Jesus says one more thing,

Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Even as we know,

Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

So who are the tormentors supposed to represent? is it being delivered unto Satan to be taught something, or is it like an evil spirit from the LORD as is shown in Saul which come to trouble him?

Seems limited in time as it is written this way

He delivered him to the tormentors, *till* he should pay all that was due unto him.

And what do you believe would be due to him?

 

[Hizikyah]

..... well I think it is metaphorically talking about the detrimental effects of sin that manifest as curses in the earth but eventually lead to eternal death..

Yahchanan (John) 5:28-30, “Do not be astonished at this-for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice, and will come forth. Those who have practiced righteousness will be resurrected in order to live; and those who have practiced wickedness will be resurrected in order to be damned."

Hebrews 10:26-30, "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Those who rejected the Law given through Mosheh died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished, who has trampled the Son of Yahweh underfoot, and has counted the blood of the covenant (with which He was sanctified) an unholy thing, and who has insulted the Spirit of mercy? For we know Him Who has said: Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, says Yahweh. And again: Yahweh will judge His people."

Matt5:

1Seeing the crowds, he went up on the mountain, and when he sat down, his disciples came to him.

2And he opened his mouth and taught them, saying:

3“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4“Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

5“Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

6“Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

7“Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

8“Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see Yah.

9“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sonsa of Yah.

10“Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11“Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.

12Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

 

[ISeeYou]

We are on the same page Hizikyah concerning the merciful obtaining mercy in respects to what I believe this picture is showing us.

The wicked one in this picture had "already been" forgiven, so he can be considered a forgiven servant, who became the wicked one here and who was turned over to the tormentors for not extending the same that was extended to him (the mercy).

Which makes more sense of the way this is written here,

The robbery of the wicked shall destroy them; because they refuse to do judgment.

Well, what is true judgment ?

Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Execute true judgment, and shew mercy and compassions every man to his brother:

So their robbery in this very thing is the same that shall destroy them, and because they refuse to do judgment which is to shew mercy and compassion every man to his brother.

The robbery of the wicked again (just worded differently)

For the wicked borroweth, and payeth not again: but the righteous sheweth mercy, and giveth.

Notice what the robbery is about?

They do not pay again its talking about the very mercy they received (ie the forgiven servant who became the wicked and this problem shown here)

So the wicked borrowed (or takes that mercy for himself) but pays not again (to another)

Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

Thus paying all due him is in shewing mercy as mercy triumphs over judgment

The dilema,

Forgive us our debts, (but only) as we forgive our debtors.

And if we have shown no mercy, then wouldnt judgment without mercy (ie tormentors) be ours as well?

There is a TILL built into there though, see it?

This seems to apply,

The merciful man doeth good to his own soul: but he that is cruel troubleth his own flesh.

Its like it showing you that you bring it on yourself if you are cruel as it speaks of troubling your own flesh. Look at Saul, an evil spirit from the LORD come and troubleth him, as we see clearly in the picture the javelin in Sauls hand.

It also says,

Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner.

Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom,

Vengeance is his, He shall repay, we see him do this between David and Nabal as well, the LORD repayed there.

Ever study judgment/ his judgments and being recompensed, in the earth?

Its like its about learning righteousness, even how to execute true judgment (even when chastened) which seemes to be shown, in showing such mercy, for mercy triumphs against judgment.

The tormentors though, what do folks believe these represent if this be more in the here and now?

 

[Hizikyah]

The wicked one in this picture had "already been" forgiven, so he can be considered a forgiven servant, who became the wicked one here and who was turned over to the tormentors for not extending the same that was extended to him (the mercy).

Nearly in tears over here...

SO im nobody but I want to witness to Yah changing our hearts...

I had another hum do something that nearly cost me my life, and did do great physical damage to my body, angry does not begin to describe how I falt toward this person, but after I truly knew Yah, the anger dissipated and is gone... why? I cant say exactly but I can say I believe it is because of 2 things that are evident in my current form, one, a sofened heart and two, His words making me wise-"er" and thus I realized satan has twisted people, they do not fully understand what they are doing, as I at one time did not.... SO how could I be angry? I could no longer.... Now I do have to add that some of the letting go may stem from knowing Yah will judge righteously and thus I have NO need to make assumption or be angry, for His standard is perfect and 100% fair and just. So no worries here.

 

[Hizikyah]

Deuteronomy 32

"The Song of Moses"

1“Give ear, O heavens, and let me speak; And let the earth hear the words of my mouth.

2“Let my teaching drop as the rain, My speech distill as the dew, As the droplets on the fresh grass And as the showers on the herb.

3“For I proclaim the name of the Yahweh; Ascribe greatness to our Strength!

4“The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A Strength of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He.

5“They have acted corruptly toward Him, They are not His children, because of their defect; But are a perverse and crooked generation.

6“Do you thus repay the Yahweh, O foolish and unwise people? Is not He your Father who has bought you? He has made you and established you.

7“Remember the days of old, Consider the years of all generations. Ask your father, and he will inform you, Your elders, and they will tell you.

8“When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, When He separated the sons of man, He set the boundaries of the peoples According to the number of the sons of Israel.

35‘Vengeance is Mine, and retribution, In due time their foot will slip; For the day of their calamity is near, And the impending things are hastening upon them.’

36“For the Yahweh will vindicate His people, And will have compassion on His servants, When He sees that their strength is gone, And there is none remaining, bond or free.

37“And He will say, ‘Where are their gods, The rock in which they sought refuge?

38‘Who ate the fat of their sacrifices, And drank the wine of their drink offering? Let them rise up and help you, Let them be your hiding place!

39‘See now that I, I am He, And there is no strength besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded and it is I who heal, And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.

 

[ELECT]

Just curious, who do each of you believe the tormentors are in Mat 18:34 unto whom Jesus said the Heavenly Father would hand one over to in this particular situation?

Things to note in the picture is, the servant was a forgiven one who became a wicked servant in not showing mercy on his fellowservant, and you can go back and read the whole thing

Starting here he asks,

Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

And because of his lack of mercy and compassion he is delivered to the tormentors

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

And Jesus says one more thing,

Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Even as we know,

Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

So who are the tormentors supposed to represent? is it being delivered unto Satan to be taught something, or is it like an evil spirit from the LORD as is shown in Saul which come to trouble him?

Seems limited in time as it is written this way

He delivered him to the tormentors, *till* he should pay all that was due unto him.

And what do you believe would be due to him?

Psalm 78:49King James Version (KJV)

49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.

 

[4enlightment]

Just curious, who do each of you believe the tormentors are in Mat 18:34 unto whom Jesus said the Heavenly Father would hand one over to in this particular situation?

Things to note in the picture is, the servant was a forgiven one who became a wicked servant in not showing mercy on his fellowservant, and you can go back and read the whole thing

Starting here he asks,

Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

And because of his lack of mercy and compassion he is delivered to the tormentors

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

And Jesus says one more thing,

Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Even as we know,

Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

So who are the tormentors supposed to represent? is it being delivered unto Satan to be taught something, or is it like an evil spirit from the LORD as is shown in Saul which come to trouble him?

Seems limited in time as it is written this way

He delivered him to the tormentors, *till* he should pay all that was due unto him.

And what do you believe would be due to him?

Proverbs 10:16 The wages of the righteous is life, but the earnings of the wicked are sin and death.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This is due. When you doesn't forgive, you are holding unto that person to be repaid back for what they has done and which that person is holding onto the old laws and that is to love those that love you, and hate your enemies; but we aren't suppose to be under the old laws. But if you are under grace, you must obey the rules of grace.

 

[jeff_peacemkr]

Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And because of his lack of mercy and compassion he is delivered to the tormentors..


because he did not forgive a debt, he is not forgiven. because he showed no mercy, he receives no mercy. it is final.

 

[ISeeYou]

Nearly in tears over here...

SO im nobody but I want to witness to Yah changing our hearts...

I had another hum do something that nearly cost me my life, and did do great physical damage to my body, angry does not begin to describe how I falt toward this person, but after I truly knew Yah, the anger dissipated and is gone... why? I cant say exactly but I can say I believe it is because of 2 things that are evident in my current form, one, a sofened heart and two, His words making me wise-"er" and thus I realized satan has twisted people, they do not fully understand what they are doing, as I at one time did not.... SO how could I be angry? I could no longer.... Now I do have to add that some of the letting go may stem from knowing Yah will judge righteously and thus I have NO need to make assumption or be angry, for His standard is perfect and 100% fair and just. So no worries here.

God bless you Hizikyah, I had gone thru similiar although there was "no real person" but was a corporate entity which did us alot of harm in the last couple of years. Not physically so, but which was in its continuance very purposeful and vindictive on three levels, and just plain relentless towards us and I have never experienced the kind of anger at something at that level before as I did with this because I am typical not easily angered, but depths of the thing of evil and nastiness of it and even of some people, its easy to understand how angry David was towards Nabal. Its like you can feel his strong indignation (and without thinking twice going after him) given all the good David did and the humilation Nabal inflicted. Now why Abigail was even married to such a good for nothing, I dont know, she was the wise one in the marraige and she (as David regarded her) as a blessing to keep David from avenging himself, and was the one who stayed Davids hand. The LORD still shown as repaying as it was the LORD that struck Nabal dead, even as it was the LORD who dealt with Saul. How hard it can be to not avenge yourself, but to leave room for him (even his wrath) as He is shown repaying.

Paul writes Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Give place for wrath, apparently it comes as surely as His vengeance as He say He will repay.

Paul mentions someone who did him much evil, and Paul doesnt say, "the Lord forgive him" but rather the Lord reward him

2 Ti 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:

That would probably be another question I could ask, would that have anything to do with the remitting or retaining of sins there? Because I am not quite sure.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And because of his lack of mercy and compassion he is delivered to the tormentors..


because he did not forgive a debt, he is not forgiven. because he showed no mercy, he receives no mercy. it is final.

I would tend to go with you on this, as this passage is about the seriousness of not forgiven others of their trespasses/sins. When you have been forgiven of yours from the Lord.
We are called to show that same mercy and love to others that was shown on to us, if we do not then our punishment at the end will be just. Some people are teaching forgiveness of others is not necessary for salvation/eternal life, but the bible says different. Even Paul confirms this;

Ephesians 4:32
And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

 

[Treepick1]

My post is off topic..
I want to be baptized.

I live in india. Help

 

[ISeeYou]

Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And because of his lack of mercy and compassion he is delivered to the tormentors..


because he did not forgive a debt, he is not forgiven. because he showed no mercy, he receives no mercy. it is final.

Maybe he is being taught here, give it is a forgiven servant who has not yet learned how to execute true judgement because the TILL doesnt allow for what is supposedly final

He delivered him to the tormentors, *till* he should pay all that was due unto him.

Jesus isnt talking to unbelievers but to his own disciples (who are as forgiven servants) and what their heavenly Father would do unto them if they dont forgive their brother from their heart.

Have you ever held a grudge?

I have, if I have, and have learned not to, was the grudge I indulged in final for me?

See what I mean?

 

[4enlightment]

My post is off topic..
I want to be baptized.

I live in india. Help

Well, keep on reading the scriptures until it renew your mind.

Ephesians 5:26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,

 

[ISeeYou]

Proverbs 10:16 The wages of the righteous is life, but the earnings of the wicked are sin and death.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This is due. When you doesn't forgive, you are holding unto that person to be repaid back for what they has done and which that person is holding onto the old laws and that is to love those that love you, and hate your enemies; but we aren't suppose to be under the old laws. But if you are under grace, you must obey the rules of grace.

Yeah but its a righteous thing with God to repay those who trouble you

2 Thes 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

Just leave it to him to do it

 

[Treepick1]

Well, keep on reading the scriptures until it renew your mind.

Ephesians 5:26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,

Well, thank you brother. I am reading the scriptures etc.

However, I would also like to be under a baptism ritual.

Regards

 

[ISeeYou]

My post is off topic..
I want to be baptized.

I live in india. Help

Here you go Treepick1, I believe they have forums for those in india here

http://christianchat.com/indian-christian-forum/

If that is what you are looking for?

Not sure how good your English is (sounds good to me) but maybe they can be of even more help to you there.

God bless

 

[ISeeYou]

Psalm 78:49King James Version (KJV)

49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.

This is more along the lines of how I see it, good verse!

Agreed

 

[ELECT]

My post is off topic..
I want to be baptized.

I live in india. Help

Do like David my friend and enquire where ye shall go

1 Samuel 23:2
Therefore David enquired of the LORD, saying, Shall I go and smite these Philistines? And
the LORD said unto David, Go, and smite the Philistines, and save Keilah.
2. 1 Samuel 23:4
Then David enquired of the LORD yet again. And the LORD answered him and said,
Arise, go down to Keilah; for I will deliver the Philistines into thine hand.
3. 1 Samuel 30:8 (Ziklag)
And David enquired at the LORD, saying, Shall I pursue after this troop? shall I overtake
them? And he answered him, Pursue: for thou shalt surely overtake them, and without fail
recover all.
4. 2 Samuel 2:1
And it came to pass after this, that David enquired of the LORD, saying, Shall I go up into
any of the cities of Judah? And the LORD said unto him, Go up. And David said, Whither
shall I go up? And he said, Unto Hebron.
5. 2 Samuel 5:19
And David enquired of the LORD, saying, Shall I go up to the Philistines? wilt thou deliver
them into mine hand? And the LORD said unto David, Go up: for I will doubtless deliver the
Philistines into thine hand.
6. 2 Samuel 5:23
And when David enquired of the LORD,

 

[Hizikyah]

My post is off topic..
I want to be baptized.

I live in india. Help

Phillipians 3:20, "But our citizenship is in heaven, out from which we also eagerly wait for our Ruler, Yahshua Messiah the King."

Follow Him;

John (Yahchanan) 14:6, "Yahshua proclaimed to him: I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes to the Father, except through Me."

John 7:16-17 "Yahshua answered, them, and said: My doctrine is not Mine, but His Who sent Me. If any man will do His will, he will know about this teaching--whether it comes from Yahweh, or whether I am speaking of My own authority."


John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

John 5:24, "Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

 

[Sophia]

My post is off topic..
I want to be baptized.

I live in india. Help

Welcome to CC.

Do you have a local group of Christians to fellowship with?
If you do, that is where you should go and seek water baptism, as an expression of your Baptism into Christ through His Blood, and as an expression of your repentance through His Spirit, and an obedient expression of your Faith and willingness to follow Christ (as He went to the waters of baptism, so do we).

If you are speaking of Spirit Baptism, there are many differing views. Read the Word, and seek the Spirit through prayers and cleansing of your heart, and then seek the laying of hands by the deacons and elders of your local body of Believers.

The step you need to take is to search out other Believers, and meet (physically) with them in fellowship, expressing your calling in Christ, your desire for discipleship, and desire for baptism.