Matthew 11:12

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
588
113
#21
Matthew 11....


"What did you go out to see....?"


(They didn't even believe John)
 
May 12, 2017
2,641
65
0
#22
Mat 11:12  And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. 

What does this scripture mean?
This means that the kingdom of heaven continues to forcefully advance and forceful[zealous]men take it for themselves
 
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
179
0
#24
No. Because in the very chapter which stonesoffire refers to, it has to do with the truth that some did not believe the prophets and they were those who killed the prophets yet said that their father's did these things. So CHRIST said after testifying of John as the greatest born of woman, (even though the least IN the kingdom is greater) that even that generation who died before CHRIST's physical coming will stand in the judgement and testify against this unbelieving generation
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(12) The kingdom of heaven suffereth violence.—The Greek verb may be either in the middle voice, “forces its way violently,” or passive, as in the English version, but there is little doubt that the latter is the right rendering. The words describe the eager rush of the crowds of Galilee and Judæa, first to the preaching of the Baptist, and then to that of Jesus. It was, as it were, a city attacked on all sides by those who were eager to take possession of it.The violent take it by force.—The Greek noun is without the article, “men who are violent or use force.” The meaning is determined by the preceding clause. The “violent” are men of eager, impetuous zeal, who grasp the kingdom of heaven—i.e., its peace, and pardon, and blessedness—with as much eagerness as men would snatch and carry off as their own the spoil of a conquered city. Their new life is, in the prophet’s language, “given them as a prey” (Jeremiah 21:9; Jeremiah 45:5). There is no thought of hostile purpose in the words.

Benson Commentary
Matthew 11:12. And from the days of John the Baptist — That is, from the time he had borne his public testimony to the approach of the Messiah, or from the time when he had fulfilled his ministry, the kingdom of heaven — The dispensation which admits all persons equally, upon their repentance and faith, suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force — The spirits of men are so excited and animated by a desire after this kingdom, that it is, as it were, attacked like a besieged city, men of all sorts pressing to get into it, with a violence like that of men who are taking a place by storm. As if he had said, “Multitudes are flocking around me, to be instructed in the nature of my kingdom; and some, who were formerly of most licentious characters, and looked upon as utterly unfit to be subjects of the Messiah’s kingdom, are resolutely set on enjoying the blessings of it.” He that hath ears to hear, let him hear — A kind of proverbial expression, requiring the deepest attention to what is spoken.

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
12. And from] Translate but from: another point shewing the greatness of John, and also the beginning of the Kingdom: it was from the time of John’s preaching that men began to press into the kingdom, and the earnest won their way in. For the preaching of John was the epoch to which all prophecy tended.

suffereth violence] is forced, broken into, as a ship enters a harbour by breaking the boom stretched across the harbour’s mouth. John’s preaching was the signal for men to press into the kingdom—to adopt eagerly the new rule and life heralded by John and set forth by Christ.

the violent take it by force] The eager and enthusiastic followers of Christ seize the kingdom—win it as a prize of war.

Sinners cannot break into the Kingdom by persecution or any other way.
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
588
113
#25
People focused on self-aggrandizement can be very nasty and violent.
Do they consciously know that this is what they are doing?

i don't believe those who tore their robes when CHRIST preached in the temple knew what they were doing or even saw it as self-aggrandizing

I think they just were blind to the TRUTH and actually thought CHRIST was the one self-aggrandizing and in the process making HIMSELF equal to GOD and guilty therefore of blasphemy

but we know that they were the ones in error
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
588
113
#26
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(12) The kingdom of heaven suffereth violence.—The Greek verb may be either in the middle voice, “forces its way violently,” or passive, as in the English version, but there is little doubt that the latter is the right rendering. The words describe the eager rush of the crowds of Galilee and Judæa, first to the preaching of the Baptist, and then to that of Jesus. It was, as it were, a city attacked on all sides by those who were eager to take possession of it.The violent take it by force.—The Greek noun is without the article, “men who are violent or use force.” The meaning is determined by the preceding clause. The “violent” are men of eager, impetuous zeal, who grasp the kingdom of heaven—i.e., its peace, and pardon, and blessedness—with as much eagerness as men would snatch and carry off as their own the spoil of a conquered city. Their new life is, in the prophet’s language, “given them as a prey” (Jeremiah 21:9; Jeremiah 45:5). There is no thought of hostile purpose in the words.

Benson Commentary
Matthew 11:12. And from the days of John the Baptist — That is, from the time he had borne his public testimony to the approach of the Messiah, or from the time when he had fulfilled his ministry, the kingdom of heaven — The dispensation which admits all persons equally, upon their repentance and faith, suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force — The spirits of men are so excited and animated by a desire after this kingdom, that it is, as it were, attacked like a besieged city, men of all sorts pressing to get into it, with a violence like that of men who are taking a place by storm. As if he had said, “Multitudes are flocking around me, to be instructed in the nature of my kingdom; and some, who were formerly of most licentious characters, and looked upon as utterly unfit to be subjects of the Messiah’s kingdom, are resolutely set on enjoying the blessings of it.” He that hath ears to hear, let him hear — A kind of proverbial expression, requiring the deepest attention to what is spoken.

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
12. And from] Translate but from: another point shewing the greatness of John, and also the beginning of the Kingdom: it was from the time of John’s preaching that men began to press into the kingdom, and the earnest won their way in. For the preaching of John was the epoch to which all prophecy tended.

suffereth violence] is forced, broken into, as a ship enters a harbour by breaking the boom stretched across the harbour’s mouth. John’s preaching was the signal for men to press into the kingdom—to adopt eagerly the new rule and life heralded by John and set forth by Christ.

the violent take it by force] The eager and enthusiastic followers of Christ seize the kingdom—win it as a prize of war.

Sinners cannot break into the Kingdom by persecution or any other way.
Sinners can't give anyone their GARMENT but they sure can point those who need it to THE DOOR and the ONE who provides that GARMENT
 
Dec 19, 2009
27,513
128
0
71
#27
Do they consciously know that this is what they are doing?

i don't believe those who tore their robes when CHRIST preached in the temple knew what they were doing or even saw it as self-aggrandizing

I think they just were blind to the TRUTH and actually thought CHRIST was the one self-aggrandizing and in the process making HIMSELF equal to GOD and guilty therefore of blasphemy

but we know that they were the ones in error
I'm not saying they knew what they were doing, but they were motivated, I am sure, by pride.
 
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
2,972
113
#28
pride and violence rule here, in our immediate world - how many of our loved ones
and our little children, friends have been abused, killed in un-told ways and means that most
would just like to ignore??? and then say, 'that's just life'?

this world is very ugly and cruel, but oh how easy it is to ignore what is really going-on?
(fit-in -join the popular crowd-give up your integrity/morals in order to be a part of what is popular?)

take care my loves, for satan is just waiting around every corner to abduct and destroy, deceive,
in order to separate you from your Lord and Master, and His Loving-saving-Grace,
in order to get you to follow him and his decadent, fateful, ways...
 
Last edited:

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
#29
The Kingdom of Heaven is only entered by one at a time. And through the Door which is Jesus just like Miknik is saying.

The Kingdom of God, that which is within...is what we guard, or guarding our heart. I would think that this is more what violent men in opposition to us here on earth would be battering at. At us.

We see a religion taking the Christians now in other countries...cutting off heads...but they cannot keep them from the Kingdom of Heaven, nor can they enter. And it has been this way since the beginning. First to the Jews, and now to us.

Sorry..but I can't accept this yet the way that most Pentecostals do. I need more understanding and will continue to see this Gods way..if wrong.

Meggido...going to pick on you since I feel I can get away with it more likely than others.:) Have you ever been in a meeting where the call is to come up front where the river is flowing...and suddenly a horde of people are thundering practically over top of you to get there before anyone else?

People have been hurt this way. This is what I see when I read this scripture.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
#30
Don't get me wrong...I love Pentecost. I love Pentecostal people. And I love the scriptures.

I love good manners too...and serving others is what is going on the Kingdom of Heaven.
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
588
113
#31
The Kingdom of Heaven is only entered by one at a time. And through the Door which is Jesus just like Miknik is saying.

The Kingdom of God, that which is within...is what we guard, or guarding our heart. I would think that this is more what violent men in opposition to us here on earth would be battering at. At us.

We see a religion taking the Christians now in other countries...cutting off heads...but they cannot keep them from the Kingdom of Heaven, nor can they enter. And it has been this way since the beginning. First to the Jews, and now to us.

Sorry..but I can't accept this yet the way that most Pentecostals do. I need more understanding and will continue to see this Gods way..if wrong.

Meggido...going to pick on you since I feel I can get away with it more likely than others.:) Have you ever been in a meeting where the call is to come up front where the river is flowing...and suddenly a horde of people are thundering practically over top of you to get there before anyone else?

People have been hurt this way. This is what I see when I read this scripture.
What do you mean you can't accept this the way Pentecostals do?
do you believe thstvoentecostaks accept that persecution is right?
or do they accept it as a possibility because CHRIST forewarned that they would face those who will hate them because of HIS NAME?

HE already told us that in this world we would have trouble
but HE also told us to take heart for HE has overcome (the world)

and we too...that is, those who believe in
HIM and hold to the TESTIMONY of JESUS have also overcome the world
 
May 12, 2017
2,641
65
0
#32
Meggido...going to pick on you since I feel I can get away with it more likely than others.:) Have you ever been in a meeting where the call is to come up front where the river is flowing...and suddenly a horde of people are thundering practically over top of you to get there before anyone else? People have been hurt this way. This is what I see when I read this scripture.
Yes I have seen this at times and if people get hurt then there was no river of the spirit moving...The Holy Spirit will not hurt anyone or harm one hair on your head...I was taught to observe these things to help discern what is a move of the Spirit and what is not.

Keep studying it out....you are getting close...
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
#33
What do you mean you can't accept this the way Pentecostals do?
do you believe thstvoentecostaks accept that persecution is right?
or do they accept it as a possibility because CHRIST forewarned that they would face those who will hate them because of HIS NAME?

HE already told us that in this world we would have trouble
but HE also told us to take heart for HE has overcome (the world)

and we too...that is, those who believe in
HIM and hold to the TESTIMONY of JESUS have also overcome the world

I said some miknik. Pentecostals have varied understandings just like other groups.
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
588
113
#34
Thank you for your reply, stonesoffire....

i agree that you are right and that not all keep ever before them what they began in

just as 1 john 2 tells us we should
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
#35
I believe I've had a change of heart and mind miknik. Was trying to nap and had a lightbulb lighting moment.

Addressing Meggido...

Is this the law of faith? When we know the promises are yes and amen, we put a demand on heaven to bring them to earth. Our earth (body), or the actual earth we are living in.

It's our God given authority right.

Did I hear correctly?

Going back to try that nap again.
 
Last edited: