Matthew Chapter 24 ; Thoughts?

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Ahwatukee

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Mar 12, 2015
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Two comings of Christ is not in the bible. It's garbage invented by Charles Darby.
What regarding "In the air" don't you understand? The Lord only descends to the atmosphere to call up an gather the church and return to heaven. He does not return to the earth at that time. So please quit saying that it is a return. The only literal return to the earth will be at after God's wrath at the end of that seven years, then the Lord will literally return to the earth to end the age. You people are just plainly not believing in the promises of the Lord.

Also, Darby is not where the promise of the gathering of the church came from, but is found in the word of God. So let me make it clear, again:

The gathering of the church = Jesus descends to the air and calls up the church taking them back to the Father's house, which is in heaven.

The Second Coming = Christ literally returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom.

Now that you have been told again, please do not refer to the gathering of the church as Christ returning to the earth, because He's not.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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What regarding "In the air" don't you understand? The Lord only descends to the atmosphere to call up an gather the church and return to heaven. He does not return to the earth at that time. So please quit saying that it is a return. The only literal return to the earth will be at after God's wrath at the end of that seven years, then the Lord will literally return to the earth to end the age. You people are just plainly not believing in the promises of the Lord.
Where does the bible say that Christ comes with clouds to the atmosphere and then returns to heaven? Specifics please, not assumptions.

I agree that Christ does not descend to earth while the vials of wrath are being poured out. There are 9 days between the day of Trumpets when they begin to be poured out and the day of atonement when IMO Christ will descend to earth for the great battle.
 

Ahwatukee

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All of this Genera


All of this Generation doesn't believe that Christ will come before tribulation it just appears like that because Pre Tribbers shout the loudest but the tide is turning. Your literal interpretation of what Jesus meant is wrong. He was using Hyperbole to emphasise the
severity of the judgement. Noahs flood was greater than anything else that could happen when only Noah his family and animals in the Ark survived.
Yeah and that would be there error. It is not because we "pre-tribbers" yell the loudest, but because regarding God's wrath and our not being here for it is found in the word of God, which you and others continue to ignore:

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"For they themselves report what kind of welcome you gave us, and how you turned away from idols to serve the living and true God and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus who delivers us from the coming wrath."

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet of our hope of salvation. For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth."

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You read the scriptures, but you don't believe them. For if you did, you would believe those that I have listed above. Instead people come up with absurd apologetics saying that God was talking about the final wrath. Yet, they don't take into consideration that believers have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God and are therefore not appointed to suffer any of God's wrath, whether on this earth or at the great white throne judgment and that because Jesus already experienced it, satisfying it for every believer.
 

Ahwatukee

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Where does the bible say that Christ comes with clouds to the atmosphere and then returns to heaven? Specifics please, not assumptions.
First of all, regarding the gathering of the church, scripture does not state that "Christ comes with the clouds" but that He descends and we meet the resurrected believers in the clouds where we all meet the Lord in the air. Below are the scriptures:

"In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am." - John 14:1-3

The above is the promise that Jesus made to His disciples and all believers, that He was going to the Father's house, which could only refer to heaven, to prepare places for all believers. Then He said that He would come back and take us to where He is and where he prepared those places for us, which again can only be in heaven. The following scripture is a detailed account of the fulfillment of when the Lord returns for us:

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."

Christ does however arrive on the clouds of heaven when he returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom, as revealed below:

"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the peoples of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory." - Matt.24:31

Regarding eschatology, it is important to discern the difference between the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. Unless one understands that these are two different events, their understanding of end-time events will be in error.

I agree that Christ does not descend to earth while the vials of wrath are being poured out. There are 9 days between the day of Trumpets when they begin to be poured out and the day of atonement when IMO Christ will descend to earth for the great battle.
Where did you get this information from? I have never read in scripture that there are 9 days between the day of trumpets and the day of atonement. Whenever making a claim, you need to support it with scripture, otherwise it is just your word. By the way, the trumpets do not take place in one day. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgment, will take place throughout the entire seven years. For example, the 5th trumpet alone is 5 months in length.

"The locusts were not given power to kill them, but only to torment them for five months, and their torment was like the stinging of a scorpion."

Some also overlap, as with the 7th trumpet, the result being Satan and his angels being thrown out of heaven and restricted to the earth during the entire last 3 1/2 years.
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
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What regarding "In the air" don't you understand? The Lord only descends to the atmosphere to call up an gather the church and return to heaven. He does not return to the earth at that time. So please quit saying that it is a return. The only literal return to the earth will be at after God's wrath at the end of that seven years, then the Lord will literally return to the earth to end the age. You people are just plainly not believing in the promises of the Lord.

Also, Darby is not where the promise of the gathering of the church came from, but is found in the word of God. So let me make it clear, again:

The gathering of the church = Jesus descends to the air and calls up the church taking them back to the Father's house, which is in heaven.

The Second Coming = Christ literally returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom.

Now that you have been told again, please do not refer to the gathering of the church as Christ returning to the earth, because He's not.
What you have is Darbys INTERPRETATION of the word of God. Here is a quote from Charles Spurgeon about Darby

Mr Darby is,to all intents and purposes a thorough Pope, though under a Protestant name. He will never admit that he is in error, and therefore very naturally declines to argue with those who controvert the soundness of his views. How indeed, could it be otherwise?
Need we feel surprised that Mr Darby as the 'prophet,priest and king' of the party should exercise a perfect despotism within the domains of Darbyism?
 

tanakh

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Dec 1, 2015
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Well then, I am in good company, being in the same company as Paul and the rest of the first century church, which were looking for the blessed hope, the appearing of our great God and savior Jesus Christ:

"For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ"



Tanakh, you change what Jesus said into being hyperbole only because it suits your position. However, Jesus in referring to the events of wrath that would take place leading up to when He returns to the earth to end the age, is literal in that, it would be the worst time in the history of the world from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again. That was not hyperbole, but is the literal truth of what is coming upon this earth. As I said in previous posts, the destruction of the temple does not meet that criteria. It will be through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, that God is going to pour out His wrath. Anyone who thinks that the end of the age is in relation to the destruction of the temple, has not idea of the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath.

Once the One restraining has been taken out of the way, and those He indwells with him, this earth will cease to be the same. During this time God will begin to decimate the population of the earth and dismantle all human government in preparation for His millennial kingdom. This is represented in Dan.2:31-46, when Jesus falls on the feet of the statue which represents all human government, smashing the statue to pieces like chaff on a threshing floor and the wind blowing it away without leaving a trace, ergo, the end of human government. Then, the Rock/Jesus, will become a huge mountain (kingdom) and will fill the whole earth, which represents His millennial kingdom.

The church is about to be gathered and following that, the wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which will be the worst time the world has ever seen and will never see again and if those days were allowed to go on any longer, no one would be left alive on the earth. All one has to do is a thorough study of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments to understand what is coming. Regarding this time of wrath, I will leave you will the prophecy of Isaiah and Zephaniah:

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"Behold, the Day of the LORD is coming—cruel, with fury and burning anger—to make the earth a desolation and to destroy the
sinners within it. For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not give their light. The sun will be darkened when it rises,
and the moon will not give its light. I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity. I will end the haughtiness
of the arrogant and humiliate the pride of tyrants. I will make man scarcer than pure gold, and mankind rarer than the gold of Ophir." - Isaiah 13:9-12

"I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth," "When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth," declares the LORD. I will sweep away both man and beast; I will sweep away the birds in the sky and the fish in the sea-- and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble." "When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth," declares the LORD." - Zeph 1:1-3

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All of the above (the day of the Lord) is going to be accomplished via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as whatever plagues the two witnesses bring upon the earth.

By the way, we pre-tribbers shout the loudest because we have the truth and are trying to get you who have been deceived by false teachings, to understand the truth of God's word regarding end-time events.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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What you have is Darbys INTERPRETATION of the word of God. Here is a quote from Charles Spurgeon about Darby

Mr Darby is,to all intents and purposes a thorough Pope, though under a Protestant name. He will never admit that he is in error, and therefore very naturally declines to argue with those who controvert the soundness of his views. How indeed, could it be otherwise?
Need we feel surprised that Mr Darby as the 'prophet,priest and king' of the party should exercise a perfect despotism within the domains of Darbyism?
That's funny Tanakh, because I would have to have read something by Darby in order to quote him, which I have not.

My understanding of end-time events, comes directly from over 40 years of my own personal study. I have never read anything by Darby, MacDonald or Scofield, of whom people continue to accuse me of getting my information from. Every day I sit down here at my desk and I study the scriptures. So I would appreciate it if you would stop accusing me of getting my information from the writings of men and women. This is why I provide scripture in order to support my claims.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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That's funny Tanakh, because I would have to have read something by Darby in order to quote him, which I have not.

My understanding of end-time events, comes directly from over 40 years of my own personal study. I have never read anything by Darby, MacDonald or Scofield, of whom people continue to accuse me of getting my information from. Every day I sit down here at my desk and I study the scriptures. So I would appreciate it if you would stop accusing me of getting my information from the writings of men and women. This is why I provide scripture in order to support my claims.
You got it from their students.
 

tanakh

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Dec 1, 2015
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Awataukee
So you dont think that the Flood that drowned the whole Human Race except Noah and his family was at least as bad if not worse than
the tribulation?

One thing I would like to be clear on is what basis do you consider a person to be saved. Is it by being born again by the Holy Spirit and being in Christ the hope of glory or believing in your particular eschatological position. My belief is with you its the latter.
I base my belief by reading some of your remarks like '' I believe with Paul in the blessed hope'' as if I don't The only difference
is I see the blessed hope as one second coming not two. Anyway instead of beating around the bush with little inferences how about spelling it out loud clear and honestly that anyone who has a different view from yourself is damned to hell including myself. You may feel a lot better if you get it off your chest
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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You got it from their students.
As I continue to say, I read scripture. I do not quote the writings of men.

You said previously said that Jesus told His disciples "where I am going you cannot follow," attempting to use it as a proof that believers are not going to heaven. Then, I showed you another scripture where Jesus said "where I am going you cannot follow, but you will follow Me later." And so I proved you wrong with scripture, but you never respond to those, why is that? Are you more concerned about contending just for the sake of contending or are you concerned about the truth? Being a true Christian, at least admit that your use of that scripture was in error.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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Awataukee
So you dont think that the Flood that drowned the whole Human Race except Noah and his family was at least as bad if not worse than
the tribulation?

One thing I would like to be clear on is what basis do you consider a person to be saved. Is it by being born again by the Holy Spirit and being in Christ the hope of glory or believing in your particular eschatological position. My belief is with you its the latter.
I base my belief by reading some of your remarks like '' I believe with Paul in the blessed hope'' as if I don't The only difference
is I see the blessed hope as one second coming not two. Anyway instead of beating around the bush with little inferences how about spelling it out loud clear and honestly that anyone who has a different view from yourself is damned to hell including myself. You may feel a lot better if you get it off your chest
That's for the Lord to decide Tanakh! Therefore, God will get it off His own chest! I am zealous for the truth and accuracy of the God's word, which you and others distort. You also claim that God has abandoned His people Israel, while ignoring all of the promises made to them and also with regard to what Paul said regarding them. You ignore all these scriptures. Regarding this, I would remind you and others again of the dangers of your position that God has abandon His people, for it puts you against them. And I'm pretty sure that God's word of "whoever curses you I will curse and whoever blesses you I will bless, is still in operation. When you and others claim that God no longer has any connection with Israel and preach replacement theology, you are against His people and therefore against God, regardless of what you claim about Christ.

In my opinion, those who are not looking for the appearing of Christ to gather the church, but instead believe that we are going to remain on the earth during the time of His wrath, are not truly believing that Christ experienced God's wrath on our behalf. And therefore, though you say Lord, Lord, at the same time you are saying that He didn't truly satisfy God's wrath on every believers behalf. It's double talk! And anyone who says that God is going to protect His church in the midst of His wrath, do not understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. You're also not believing in the Lord's promise to keep us out of the time of His wrath, nor the other scriptures.
 
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As I continue to say, I read scripture. I do not quote the writings of men.

You said previously said that Jesus told His disciples "where I am going you cannot follow," attempting to use it as a proof that believers are not going to heaven. Then, I showed you another scripture where Jesus said "where I am going you cannot follow, but you will follow Me later." And so I proved you wrong with scripture, but you never respond to those, why is that? Are you more concerned about contending just for the sake of contending or are you concerned about the truth? Being a true Christian, at least admit that your use of that scripture was in error.
NO, I didn't say that. You're thinking about someone else.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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NO, I didn't say that. You're thinking about someone else.
You didn't say that? Look at post #148. It has you replying to my post with your response being

"You got it from their students."
 
Sep 4, 2012
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You didn't say that? Look at post #148. It has you replying to my post with your response being

"You got it from their students."
Sorry I wasn't clear. Yeah I said that, but I didn't say the second part where you mentioned this - "where I am going you cannot follow,"
 

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
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Awataukee
So you dont think that the Flood that drowned the whole Human Race except Noah and his family was at least as bad if not worse than
the tribulation?

One thing I would like to be clear on is what basis do you consider a person to be saved. Is it by being born again by the Holy Spirit and being in Christ the hope of glory or believing in your particular eschatological position. My belief is with you its the latter.
I base my belief by reading some of your remarks like '' I believe with Paul in the blessed hope'' as if I don't The only difference
is I see the blessed hope as one second coming not two. Anyway instead of beating around the bush with little inferences how about spelling it out loud clear and honestly that anyone who has a different view from yourself is damned to hell including myself. You may feel a lot better if you get it off your chest
Amen, When Jesus Returns again, He is here to stay and reign over all the Kingdoms of the Earth. Some people teach that He Returns a 2nd time, then leaves again, only to return a third time. This Scriptures does not teach at all, but men who do not know the TRUTH teach such things.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave
 

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
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You didn't say that? Look at post #148. It has you replying to my post with your response being

"You got it from their students."

Still waiting to here from you brother, how the Prophecies of Zechariah Chapter 14 fit into what you teach. i keep asking you this because what you teach is in error, and Zechariah 14 PROVES it to be in error, but you refuse to explain Zechariah 14 when i have repeatedly ask you to do so. Why you don't, is because you can't. Zechariah 14 does NOT line up with what you teach does it? If you were to actually believe Zechariah 14 you would have to change your entire belief, something that you have believed all your life, right? Can't have that can we? So it is better to just ignore Zechariah 14 for you, then to admit what you teach is contrary to Inspired by God Scriptures.

If i am wrong, then please explain Zechariah 14 verse by verse if you can.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave