Messianic Christians?

daisymae · May 7, 2014

Elin said:

Matthew 21:43 …yes, but you can’t base it all on one verse, that verse is clearly only one aspect of what God has, and is doing with Israel….

Romans 9:4,5
Who are Israelites; to whom pertains the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came….

9:31,32;....But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone…..

10:19 ….”I (God) will provoke you (Israel) to jealosy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation will I anger you.”

11:7,8 ….”Israel has not obtained that which he seeks for; but the election has obtained it, and the rest were blinded (according as it is written, God had given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.

11:11,12 …”Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid; but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles; for to provoke them to jealosy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?”

(NIV is more clear…”Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fulness bring!”)

11:15 “For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving (NIV “acceptance”) of them be, but life from the dead? For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree; boast not against the branches. But if you boast, you bear not the root, but the root bears you. You will say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and you standest (are standing) by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.”

11:23 …”if they (Israel) abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of S(Z)ion the Deliverer, and shall turn ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Linda70 · May 7, 2014

MsSpratt said:

Think about it...as you read through the New Testament, you can see all the spiritual blessings a born again Christian has "in Christ Jesus"

For instance

Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Ephesians 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

I could go on, but I hope you get the idea of what "spiritual blessings" are.

Does the Church have a "land"? If, as replacement theology teaches, the Church has replaced the nation of Israel, why isn't the Church in their "land" (in Israel) claiming it for their own? Something to think about!

Gentiles are NOT Jews! There are born again Christians of Jewish ethnicity (as I am) in the body of Christ/the Church. There is no such thing as a "spiritual" Jew. Romans 11 doesn't teach that Gentiles are "grafted into Israel"...they are "grafted into" the "spiritual" promises and blessings of Israel IN CHRIST! The Church is blessed through the SEED of faithful Abraham. (in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. Genesis 12:3b) That Seed is Christ (the "Seed of the woman" in Genesis 3:15).

Because man's mind is "finite" and the mind of God is "infinite", that which seems "logical" (it makes no sense at all) to you is not how God looks at things. He made promises and covenants to the nation of Israel through the physical seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob which will be literally fulfilled in the future...whether or not "it makes no sense at all" to us.

Salvation is to "whosoever will" believe and receive! There were NO Christians until the Church began. The Church began at Pentecost. Actually, the followers of Christ were all Jews until Acts 8, when Phillip evangelized the Samaritans (considered half-breeds by the Jews) and then Peter opened the door for the Gentiles to receive the Gospel at the house of Cornelius in Acts 10. No believer in Christ was called "Christian" until Acts 11:26...and then it was a type of derogatory term.

Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Amen! Whosoever will!

Remember, the nation of Israel (actually the Jewish leaders of Israel) rejected Christ....that is why God set the NATION aside and is calling out a people for His Name....the body of Christ/the Church from among individual Jews and Gentiles. The preaching of the Gospel still goes "to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Romans 1:16b). After God's purpose for the body of Christ/the Church is fulfilled (until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. - Romans 11:25), then God will turn His attention back to the NATION of Israel. Israel will be going through some severe judgment during the 7 years of Tribulation (the time of Jacob's trouble - Jeremiah 30:7) in the future. I believe that time is getting very close.

The New Covenant will be fulfilled for the NATION of Israel when Jesus Christ returns to this earth to set up His Millennial Kingdom in Jerusalem.

daisymae · May 7, 2014

crossnote said:

I don't understand, did you mean James 2:10? When I read this, I believe it's talking about the 10 commandments, because in the previous verses, 8&9, it says, "If you fulfill the royal law according to scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well; but if you have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors."

Then he goes on in verse 11: “For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if you commit no adultery, yet if you kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.”

As I’ve said in another post, we have to distinguish what is meant by the law. Sometimes the bible may be meaning the Mosiac Law, containing ceremonial laws, temple worship, ordinances, etc. Sometimes it only means the 10 commandments.

I believe that the 10 commandments are still in effect. (and that has led me into a pursuit of the truth about the sabbath, but that’s another discussion I’m sure everyone will not agree on!) But the Mosaic Laws are not in effect any longer. I hope what I present makes sense.

The bible says in several places* that the verse above (verse 8) is the ‘summary’ of all the 10 commandments. If you love the Lord with all your heart, and soul, mind, and strength (paraphrased) then you will love your neighbor as yourself. You will not kill him, or commit adultery, etc…
*Matthew 22:35 Jesus says that this is the first and second greatest commands, and on these two commandments “hang all the law and the prophets.”

Matthew 5:17 “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am come not to destroy, but to fulfill”. Here I believe that he was speaking of the 10 commandments because he continues about the law, and the 10 commandments specifically, from verse 21-37 in a way that shows they’e still in effect, I think we’re all in agreement about that.

But in verse 18 of ch5 it says, “Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled” Jumping back to verse 17 it says “the law, or the prophets”, I believe that Jesus was saying the 10 commandments are still meant to be obeyed, and what he meant by till all be fulfilled is that the Mosaic Law contained in the Torah would pass away when he himself fulfilled the law on the cross.

But let’s remember that when Jesus was asked in Matt 19:16 “Master, what good thing must I do, that I may have eternal life?” He answered in the next verse, only one is good, God, “but if you will enter into life, keep the commandments” he did not mean salvation by merit/works. Because as you’ll see from the next verses 17-24, that even though the commandments were followed, faith was missing. The man’s faith was in his possessions. (so, in reality, the commands were not kept, but…)

I am by no means a bible scholar, and am not presuming to know everything, or to talk down to anyone. I think we all though may at times be caught up in one view, and not see the whole picture. I know I have, I’m still learning. This whole discussion, even though we’re all over the map, is good because we are all seeking after the truth according to the bible, hopefully all, as I can only speak for myself.

crossnote · May 7, 2014

Daisymae,
Yes James 2:10 is correct and it refers not only to the Ten Commandment but to the whole Mosaic law (all 613). This is because the whole law is an inseparable unit and not just the 10. No where in Scripture do you read 'moral law', 'ceremonial law', 'civic law' etc., that is all man made.
That whole Mosaic system (all 613) was replaced by a new and different Priesthood and thus a new Covenant.
Yes some of the rules are restated in the New Covenant (9 of the 10) but to be under the Old Covenant would mean you need a Levite Priest,
animal sacrifices a Temple in Jerusalem, circumcision for males, etc. Is that what you want to be under? All 613?

daisymae · May 7, 2014

crossnote said:

I don't agree, I don't think you carefully (prayerfully) read the passages I quoted and the context to which this verse in James speaks of. In James the context explains itself. But, you believe what you want. I think it's so clear that it should be unmistakable. Why else did Jesus speak to this in the sermon on the mount, Mt. 5:17-27.
Think about this...Read each of the 10 commandments....Do we not obey these? Yes, and what's more is that a lot of our "moral" laws are based upon these. I think also, where the Mosaic law was not, the 10 commandments were written in stone. I believe God did this to show these are eternal laws. Not because I say so, but I believe the bible teaches so.

No, maybe the bible does not use these terms, but we know what they mean, and I never said they were terms the bible uses.

You are lumping them all together when you ask me if I want animal sacrifices, circumcision, etc...

Elin · May 7, 2014

daisymae said:

Do you see a contradiction to this verse in Scripture?

Yes, these were the advantages of the Jews over the Gentiles in the OT,
but they were not the saving advantages of the NT for both Gentiles and Jews.

God has not rejected his people, whom he foreknew.
He has rejected only the unbelievers among them, as he does with the Gentiles.

In the NT, both Jews and Gentiles are on the same footing regarding salvation in Jesus Christ.
Only a remnant are being saved.

I see three things here:

1) "Fullness of the Gentiles" does not mean all Gentiles.

2) Not all Israel is Israel, only believing Israel is true Israel (Ro 9:6).
God is saving true Israel, which is the believing remnant (Ro 9:27, 11:5).

3) I see no Biblical warrant for "the fullness of Israel" to mean all Jews,
anymore than does "the fullness of Gentiles" mean all Gentiles.
I see more Biblical warrant for "the fullness of Israel" to mean the fullness of true Israel, which is a remnant.

crossnote · May 7, 2014

daisymae said:

I'll say this in positive terms.
In the New Covenant His nature (as reflected in the Law) is written in our hearts...even the Sabbath, as we find our rest in His finished work.
So why put yourself under the Old Covenant a ministration of death?

2 Corinthians 3:6-8 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

daisymae · May 7, 2014

Elin said:

The Promises made to Israel also have a future fulfillment, so this passage is not only for OT Jews

I never said the Fulness of the Gentiles means all Gentiles. The bible says it and means one day there will be an end to the Gentiles coming into the church. Notice it says “until the fulness of the Gentiles come in” in Romans 11:25. (That quote from Romans 11:23 should read 11:23-27.) And at that time the kingdom will be re-instated (for lack of a better word) to Israel. And then comes in the millennial reign of Christ...who will reign from Jerusalem. Verse 26 of chapter 11 says All Israel will be saved. It is not the all that you are implying. Remember this is a future event, and the bible says All for a reason that I’m unable to answer. But it’s there.

You have a way of twisting my words, that is aggravating!

daisymae · May 7, 2014

crossnote said:

I'll say this in positive terms.
In the New Covenant His nature (as reflected in the Law) is written in our hearts...even the Sabbath, as we find our rest in His finished work.
So why put yourself under the Old Covenant a ministration of death?

2 Corinthians 3:6-8 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?[/QUOTE/]

I've said all that I can say on the matter, we all come from very diverse backgrounds and we cannot agree on much. But one thing, as far as "the letter killeth", it is not the actual letter that is doing the killing, (if that is what you meant) but it is the judgment resulting from the law represented here as the letter. The law is good and holy as Paul said in Romans 7:12

royalscot · May 7, 2014

JGIG said:

The Levitical priesthood has to be traced back to Abraham? To Adam? Heck, everyone can be traced back to Adam, yes? So that's just silliness. And the '12 men to start a synagogue' bit? That's no where in the Scriptures! And Christ did not come to establish synagogues, but to establish His Body, the Church. Someone else covered Christ teaching in the Temple, so I'll limit my comments to the lineage of Christ.

The tribes of Israel didn't even exist until Jacob, and the priesthood for the Old Covenant didn't exist until Sinai (430 years after Abraham).

The priestly line came from Aaron, a Levite, not from Abraham or Adam, who had no tribal affiliation in the nation of Israel.

As for John the Baptist being a Levite and being related to Jesus, 'so Jesus can be in the levi priesthood, too', no, it does not work out that way.

Here's why:

Christ's mother Mary was a cousin of Elizabeth, who was the daughter of a Levite. According to Jewish tradition, lineage is determined through the mother, but according to Biblical Law, tribal lineage is determined through the father's line (patrilineal).

Here's how it breaks down:

Mary and Elizabeth had mothers who were sisters, making Mary and Elizabeth cousins.

-or-

Mary's mother and Elizabeth's father were sister and brother, making Mary and Elizabeth cousins.

Elizabeth was married to Zechariah, a priest in the Temple, making him a Levite. As a Levite priest, Zechariah had to be married to a Levite (per Lev. 21). So . . .

We know that Elizabeth had to be a Levite.
That does not mean that Mary had to be a Levite, however, because her Tribal affiliation was determined through her father's bloodline, not her mother's bloodline, and her father was of the Tribe of Judah.

Again, while 'Jewishness' in 'modern times' is determined by the maternal line, Tribal affiliation was determined IN THE BIBLE by the paternal line.

So even though Mary's father (Heli, of the Tribe of Judah) likely did marry the daughter of a Levite (which would make it possible for Elizabeth to be Mary's relative - some say cousin, some say aunt, also being a Levite, able to marry a Levite High Priest, Zechariah), Mary's Tribal affiliation was determined by her father's Tribe, not by her mother's Tribe.

Is it possible that Levite blood coursed through Messiah's veins?

Yes - Gentile blood also coursed through Messiah's veins, as there are several Gentile women listed in the line of David.

Those Gentile women's presence in the line of David does not make Messiah a Gentile any more than the presence of a Levite in the line of David through Mary makes Messiah a Levite.

Christ is of the Tribe of Judah, of the Line of David, determined by the Paternal line.

His Tribal affiliation, through His female flesh-parent, was determined to be Judah through her patriarchal lineage, as all lineages throughout the Bible are determined.

Hebrews 7:11-16 clearly states:

11 Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.

13 For He of whom these things are spoken
---> belongs to another tribe, <---
from which no man has officiated at the altar.

14 ---> For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, <---

of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. 15 And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest 16 who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life.

And here is gets really interesting, for the Scriptures put Jesus' lineage in the Flesh from the line of Judah, but what of His Father's Seed?

Surely you all understand that God is not of any fleshly tribe of Israel or any other nation, right?

The letter to the Hebrews tells us that Christ Jesus became our Perfect High Priest - His flesh of the Tribe of Judah on His mother's side - His Spirit begotten of God and Christ's Priesthood in the likeness of Melchizedek - a priest with no recorded lineage. There is much more to explore in the reference to Melchizedek, but for the purposes of this post, suffice it to say that Melchizedek was a priest hundreds of years before the Old Covenant fleshly Priesthood was defined and established at Sinai.

What does all that mean?

It means that Christ is our Perfect, Permanent, Forever High Priest of the New Covenant, that's what it means! \o/

-JGIG

and the promise was give to Abraham, the seed. would come form his family, so lineage is connected to Abraham. not Melchizedek .( I know what is wrote in Hebrews)
why have 12 men ,to be apostils , 24 throne in rev 12 of the tribe of isreal at at a guess 12 apostils. with the foundations(to build a church or synagogue) 24 different colours, spiritual or figurative meaning, point to jesus pick 12 for a reason, so because he is jewish ,chose synagogue.
and not church.
the letter to Hebrew we don't know how wrote it, yet even paul talks about the seed in his letters. and the apostils connect his lineage to Abraham,/adam and not Melchizedek . jesus was jewish, and is connected to the jewish people. it was after penticost(the new covenant started) gentile Christians got the holy spirit.

daisymae · May 7, 2014

crossnote said:

I'll say this in positive terms.
In the New Covenant His nature (as reflected in the Law) is written in our hearts...even the Sabbath, as we find our rest in His finished work.
So why put yourself under the Old Covenant a ministration of death?

2 Corinthians 3:6-8 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?[/QUOTE/]

I've said all that I can say on the matter. One thing though, as far as "the letter killeth", this is a representation of the judgement of the law, not the actual 'letter'. (to be fair, if that is what you meant) Paul said in Romans 7:12, that "the law is holy; and the commandment holy, just and good."

Elin · May 7, 2014

daisymae said:

Elin said:

The Promises made to Israel also have a future fulfillment, so this passage is not only for OT Jews

I never said the Fulness of the Gentiles means all Gentiles. The bible says it and means one day there will be an end to the Gentiles coming into the church. Notice it says “until the fulness of the Gentiles come in” in Romans 11:25. (That quote from Romans 11:23 should read 11:23-27.) And at that time the kingdom will be re-instated (for lack of a better word) to Israel. And then comes in the millennial reign of Christ...who will reign from Jerusalem. Verse 26 of chapter 11 says All Israel will be saved. It is not the all that you are implying. Remember this is a future event, and the bible says All for a reason that I’m unable to answer. But it’s there.

You have a way of twisting my words, that is aggravating!

Yes, that would be aggravating.

But I was not saying anything about anyone regarding "the fullness of the Gentiles."
I was referring to what Scripture states and what the last 2,000 years has shown it to mean.

I was then applying the meaning of that phrase to the same phrase regarding Israel, and
saying that it had the same meaning regarding Israel that it does regarding the Gentiles.

I'm sorry it appeared that I was twisting your words.

Read again what I said, to see what I am saying here.

daisymae · May 7, 2014

daisymae said:

crossnote said:

I'll say this in positive terms.
In the New Covenant His nature (as reflected in the Law) is written in our hearts...even the Sabbath, as we find our rest in His finished work.
So why put yourself under the Old Covenant a ministration of death?

2 Corinthians 3:6-8 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?[/QUOTE/]

I've said all that I can say on the matter. One thing though, as far as "the letter killeth", this is a representation of the judgement of the law, not the actual 'letter'. (to be fair, if that is what you meant) Paul said in Romans 7:12, that "the law is holy; and the commandment holy, just and good."

DOUBLE-POSTED oops

Linda70 · May 7, 2014

Hope this will help clear up some of the "fuzzy" areas concerning the fulfillment of the New Covenant. This is an excerpt from Dr. Renald E. Showers' book, There Really Is A Difference: A Comparison of Covenant and Dispensational Theology:

Concluding Considerations

It is apparent that Jesus established the New Covenant when He shed His blood on the cross (Luke 22:20; 1 Cor. 11:25; Hebrews 8:6-13; 9:15; 12:24). The Church, which began shortly after Christ’s death (Acts 2:1-4; 11:15), has partaken of the spiritual blessings of the New Covenant. According to the Apostle Paul’s teaching in Romans 11, during the time of the Church, a remnant of literal, national Israel is being saved by the grace of God through faith in Christ. Those Israelites who make up that remnant become members of the Church through salvation. They thereby partake of the spiritual blessings of the New Covenant, as do the other members of the Church. They do not, however , partake of the material and national blessings of the New Covenant, as the rest of the Church does not.

By contrast with the remnant, during the time of the Church, the majority of literal, national Israel does not become saved because of its hardened unbelief. As a result, that majority does not obtain any of the promised blessings of the New Covenant, even though it seeks many of those blessings during the present Church age. Because of their unbelief, the Israelites who make up the majority of the nation have been removed by God from the place of covenant blessings which the nation of Israel enjoyed with God in the past. This means, then, that national Israel failed to enter the New Covenant relationship with God in conjunction with Messiah’s first coming.

While the majority of national Israel remains in unbelief outside the place of covenant blessing, many Gentiles, who originally were not in that place of blessing, are being grafted into it by the grace of God through faith in Christ. These saved Gentiles are members of the Church. They are grafted into the place of covenant blessing in the sense that they partake of the spiritual blessings of the New Covenant, as do the remnant Israelite members of the Church.

In spite of the fact that believing Gentiles are grafted into the place of covenant blessing in place of the unbelieving majority of national Israel, that does not mean that the fulfillment of the New Covenant with literal national Israel has been nullified. Paul made it very clear that the majority of national Israel will not be removed from the place of covenant blessing forever. That removal is only temporary. When the great harvest of Gentile souls has been gathered and Messiah returns, national Israel will be saved and placed back into the place of covenant blessing (Romans 11:23-27). As a result, at that time literal, national Israel will enter fully into the New Covenant relationship with God, and all the promises (spiritual, material, and national) of that covenant will be fulfilled completely with that nation. Thus, although national Israel failed to enter the New Covenant relationship with God in conjunction with Messiah’s first coming, it will enter that relationship in conjunction with His Second Coming.

In Romans 11, therefore, Paul explained how the Church now partakes of the spiritual blessings of the New Covenant. The complete fulfillment of that covenant with national Israel, however, has not been and never will be nullified.

Source: An excerpt from - There Really Is A Difference: A Comparison of Covenant and Dispensational Theology by Renald E. Showers – Chapter 10, The New Covenant - pg. 109-111
Copyright © 1990 by The Friends of Israel Ministry, Inc., Bellmawr, NJ 08099. Tenth printing......2006

daisymae · May 7, 2014

daisymae · May 7, 2014

Animals Screaming Like Humans - YouTube

funny

JGIG · May 7, 2014

royalscot said:

and the promise was give to Abraham, the seed. would come form his family, so lineage is connected to Abraham. not Melchizedek .( I know what is wrote in Hebrews)
why have 12 men ,to be apostils , 24 throne in rev 12 of the tribe of isreal at at a guess 12 apostils. with the foundations(to build a church or synagogue) 24 different colours, spiritual or figurative meaning, point to jesus pick 12 for a reason, so because he is jewish ,chose synagogue.
and not church.
the letter to Hebrew we don't know how wrote it, yet even paul talks about the seed in his letters. and the apostils connect his lineage to Abraham,/adam and not Melchizedek . jesus was jewish, and is connected to the jewish people. it was after penticost(the new covenant started) gentile Christians got the holy spirit.

Only on His mother's side

.

-JGIG

RedTent · May 7, 2014

crossnote said:

There is another way of looking at these same words. Our salvation has never depended on our obedience to law, and if it was, we would have to obey it all perfectly. We have Christ. We are told to be perfect, we are told we can't be. To follow both these directions, we simply have to do the best we can.

The Mosaic Law says that if you obey I will bless, if you disobey I will punish. Certainly that punishment is not death, as disobedience without Christ would mean. There is no scripture that says that works will achieve salvation. We know that sin brings punishment. Thieves are put in jail, liars aren't believed, etc. But sinners are saved! Look at David, a man after God's own heart.

I haven't found a scripture that states "Mosaic Law is cancelled". Am I missing something?

We are not to read law legalistically, we are told that over and over. If we did that we would to have Christ, our high preist be a legalistic priest, the temple would have to go back to being in a building, and use the shadow of Christ's blood instead of Christ. If we read the 613 laws in spirit and truth, we find they speak of justice, for instance, in a world that had little justice, in a world where punishments were completely unfair. A punishment to equal the crime was unheard of until "an eye for an eye" was spoken. Before, a hand could be taken for stealing an apple. There were no jails.

gleener · May 7, 2014

RedTent said:

There is another way of looking at these same words. Our salvation has never depended on our obedience to law, and if it was, we would have to obey it all perfectly. We have Christ. We are told to be perfect, we are told we can't be. To follow both these directions, we simply have to do the best we can.

The Mosaic Law says that if you obey I will bless, if you disobey I will punish. Certainly that punishment is not death, as disobedience without Christ would mean. There is no scripture that says that works will achieve salvation. We know that sin brings punishment. Thieves are put in jail, liars aren't believed, etc. But sinners are saved! Look at David, a man after God's own heart.

I haven't found a scripture that states "Mosaic Law is cancelled". Am I missing something?

We are not to read law legalistically, we are told that over and over. If we did that we would to have Christ, our high preist be a legalistic priest, the temple would have to go back to being in a building, and use the shadow of Christ's blood instead of Christ. If we read the 613 laws in spirit and truth, we find they speak of justice, for instance, in a world that had little justice, in a world where punishments were completely unfair. A punishment to equal the crime was unheard of until "an eye for an eye" was spoken. Before, a hand could be taken for stealing an apple. There were no jails.

I like what you say about the law so tell me should I stay away from eating pork?

Stephen63 · May 7, 2014

Linda70 said:

Just look up their roles in govt, business, the church, & Israel. They are jewish in religion only, not the bloodline of Abraham.
That means nothing to me...... what matters to me is that the Rothchilds are Ashkenazi jews...... you DO know what they're in charge of, yes? The many buildings in Israel they've built with masonic emblems all over them.....

Messianic Christians?

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