Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"

[ZNP]

So the Aleph in the sky was a day or so off or did I have the days wrong? Which domino was this, the first or one of the subsequent ones? Are you certain of what you think?

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for the craziness to be terminated. But this would include the sensationalist error that's been going on for ages. And it would include all the eschatological debate and all the theological debate and all the politics and all the... Too many dots to list.

The 19th was the first day, the warning expired on the 18th.

There is no "sensationalist error" here. No one can question that this sign is from God, no one else controls the sun, moon and stars. The only thing you can question is the interpretation. That is why not carefully looking at this sign to understand what it could be saying is the error. If God is speaking to you, ignoring that is the error. No one can claim they thought this message was "spam" or from some "Nigerian hacker". That is why I find the very last point that this sign crossed in the US significant while no one else has even mentioned it. The last place it crossed was the Boston Post Road in a remote region of Maine indicating that this was a letter delivered by God to the US, to everyone in the US. You will be accountable for how you handle this message.

 

[ZNP]

Americans need to open their eyes to the truth

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/YZgkgChfBGc

 

[cv5]

Not really. Satan does God's will and serves God's purpose.

A common misconception. Satan does his OWN WILL.
Its just that Satan cannot possibly defeat the PURPOSES of God's will.
Because......God has attributes that Satan cannot defeat with his willful machinations.

Jhn 8:44
“You are of your father the devil, and the (WILLFUL) desires of your father you want (WILL) to do. He was a (WILLFUL) murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he (WILLFULLY) speaks a lie, he speaks from his own (WILL) resources, for he is a (WILLFUL) liar and the father of it!

 

[ZNP]

A common misconception. Satan does his OWN WILL.
Its just that Satan cannot possibly defeat the PURPOSES of God's will.
Because......God has attributes that Satan cannot defeat with his willful machinations.

Jhn 8:44
“You are of your father the devil, and the (WILLFUL) desires of your father you want (WILL) to do. He was a (WILLFUL) murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he (WILLFULLY) speaks a lie, he speaks from his own (WILL) resources, for he is a (WILLFUL) liar and the father of it!

Try rereading what I said. None of this changes the fact that the desires of Satan are derivative of God's will and that it accomplishes God's will.

We know that God loves us because He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes on Him should not perish. Well, that works both ways, how does God know who loves Him?

 

[ZNP]

Now here is a really big domino about to fall

Gold was $1,640 an ounce 10/1/2022

A 50% decrease in purchasing power by the US dollar would be $2,460 an ounce

Today Gold is $2,369 an ounce, hitting $2,438 just this week.

Brad Garrett on Future Finances 05/23/2024

Think of this as a global tug of war over the reserve currency. BRICS is the smaller guy. The US and the West is like 55% and BRICS is 45% so you would superficially think the West wins. But the rise in the cost of Gold and Silver is proof the BRICS team is pulling the US dollar down and slowly to the mud hole. Once the dollar loses 50% of its value relative to the cost of gold then the West team starts falling into the mud hole and you can be sure the slide will happen real fast. Now the Iranian president dying, do you think that will cause the US dollar to slide more? Hmmm.

BTW this is based on an article in Bloomberg news, not exactly sensationalist.

 

[Cameron143]

The problem when we review all the mentions of "spirit" in the Text is that we run into places where it's difficult to determine if it should be capitalized or not. Translations are not flawless.



Matt9:4 Jesus clearly knew their thoughts and asked why some were thinking evil in their hearts. I see no reason to mitigate what this says. Are you concerned that the language re: the Lord opening Lydia's heart to get her to pay attention somehow suggests her mind was not involved?



I guess this answers my question just above. I've no substantial disagreement with what you say here, other than noting you have not explained the heart at all. Your separation of heart and mind seem manufactured. Based upon what Jesus said in Matt9:4 your distinction seems unnecessary.

The heart is the seat of our emotions. In the natural man, it drives thought. Because it is corrupted, it will lead to corrupted thought. This is why, as Christians, we are to take every thought captive so we are not subject to emotion, but truth. So when the Bible speaks of thinking in the heart, it is referring to thoughts generated by emotion. What's in the well comes up in the bucket. Thus, we are cautioned to think on things that are good...Philippians 4:8. Over time, as we delight ourselves in God, He will replace our sinful desires with those that are holy and pure...Psalm 37:4.
So while the heart bears upon and often drives one's thinking, they remain separate aspects of man, and both must be considered in salvation to affect the will.

 

[Cameron143]

God only made covenant promises to Israel. Salvation has come to the Gentiles.

Tell me what covenants you think there have been please.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Thank you for your long reply.

I seek to ask this question not in any way to make you feel condemned but in the hope that you would consider what is asked. It seems from what you have written that you are finding assurance in your growth in Christ and in getting victory over sin which is indeed a fruit of those who have been regenerated but unless your primary assurance is found in the person and work of Christ and not yourself or what you do, it is easy to fall into the trap of those as found in Matthew 7:21-23 who called Christ Lord and pointed to what they had done as their assurance and not to Christ Himself and were left with the most disturbing words in the whole of Scripture that He did not know them, which obviously does not mean He didn't know of them but didn't have an intimate relationship with them.

There are so many who say that they know Christ today but whose hearts have never been changed and they would not be willing to lay down their lives for Him. I sincerely hope and pray that the Lord would grant you, I, and all who say they are followers of Christ the grace to look to Christ and not ourselves and live, suffer and die for Him who lived, suffered and died for His people to grant them eternal life.

Not sure how I could provide such a long post as I did without first understanding my assurance is in the Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth, now King of kings and Lord of lords sitting at the Right Hand of Power.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Please do not call yourself a Christian unless you abide in the truth of the New Testament which confirms that the Old has passed away and is now obsolete.

Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Please prove that any who call themselves Jews today have any connection to the Israel of old which in obedience to their law offered daily sacrifices.

It is no wonder that DNA tests are banned in the current state of Israel as they prove that the only ones with a Semitic connection are the Palestinians and not the Talmudic Pharisees, mostly from Khazaria who converted and call themselves Jews today and are in fact as Christ confirmed twice, counterfeits of the Synagogue of Satan (Rev 2:9, 3:9).

View attachment 264013

John Hopkins also believes those who profess Jesus as their God, Lord and Savior should be in a straight jacket surrounded by padded walls. You went to a Psych Ward labelled Medical Institution for answers. That speaks volumes.

 

[cv5]

None of this changes the fact that the desires of Satan are derivative of God's will

Absolutely false. Jesus could not possibly be more clear about this....

"for he is a (WILLFUL) liar and the father of it! "


What about the will of these character? Are the derivatives of God's will too? I don't think so....


Act 7:51
“You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.

Exo 8:32
And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Yes, I think the Iranian President's helicopter went down and he died. Someone described that event like this

Attacked Israel and 2 weeks later on a bright sunny day end up in a mysterious fog and fly directly into the side of a mountain. Coming from the Nation that can be found in Psalms 83 and Ezekiel 37-39 who is part of the prophesied attack on Israel kind of gives me the warm and fuzzies just how close we are to seeing God.

 

[John146]

Tell me what covenants you think there have been please.

Romans 9
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

 

[cv5]

Tell me what covenants you think there have been please.

Look man.....if you have something to say about your opinion of covenants.....say it.
We would love to dispute these pretentions of yours.

But....you won't. You play your little game of pattycake instead. Evidently this is psychologically gratifying for you.

 

[studier]

The heart is the seat of our emotions. In the natural man, it drives thought. Because it is corrupted, it will lead to corrupted thought. This is why, as Christians, we are to take every thought captive so we are not subject to emotion, but truth. So when the Bible speaks of thinking in the heart, it is referring to thoughts generated by emotion. What's in the well comes up in the bucket. Thus, we are cautioned to think on things that are good...Philippians 4:8. Over time, as we delight ourselves in God, He will replace our sinful desires with those that are holy and pure...Psalm 37:4.
So while the heart bears upon and often drives one's thinking, they remain separate aspects of man, and both must be considered in salvation to affect the will.

Interpretive. I heard such things 3 decades ago. Then I dug into the Text.

We are to take every thought captive to the obedience of Jesus Christ so our thoughts are not subject to disobedience, to sin, to lawlessness, to outside corrupted influence, and to the flesh, which is much more than emotions.

Part of the training in growing up is to understand various components and how to work with or control them. Then, at some point, the various components and actions become more fluid, more ingrained as a system.

One of the things that is finally being figured out in more practical things is that they are systems - interactive, intermixed, systems. This is why part of why salvation is of the whole man 23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess. 5:23 NKJ).

This is why our Text is so fluid with some of its language. It stems from a greater understanding than most of us have been trained to perceive. Jesus can speak of thinking in our heart, because the mind is more than the mind. It is vitally and as you said "inexorably" interconnected with more than itself.

 

[Cameron143]

Romans 9
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Were those chosen in Him before the foundation of the world part of a covenant?

 

[Cameron143]

Interpretive. I heard such things 3 decades ago. Then I dug into the Text.

We are to take every thought captive to the obedience of Jesus Christ so our thoughts are not subject to disobedience, to sin, to lawlessness, to outside corrupted influence, and to the flesh, which is much more than emotions.

Part of the training in growing up is to understand various components and how to work with or control them. Then, at some point, the various components and actions become more fluid, more ingrained as a system.

One of the things that is finally being figured out in more practical things is that they are systems - interactive, intermixed, systems. This is why part of why salvation is of the whole man 23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess. 5:23 NKJ).

This is why our Text is so fluid with some of its language. It stems from a greater understanding than most of us have been trained to perceive. Jesus can speak of thinking in our heart, because the mind is more than the mind. It is vitally and as you said "inexorably" interconnected with more than itself.

I really don't understand thus. Can you dumb it down for me?

 

[Mem]

At this point, I'm just spraying graffiti on a train car but,

Was it Paul that said in one of his letters, "I am (or was it we are?) a fool for you," regarding the faith that he extended to a bunch of dummies that they would get the message and so he took such time as to preach it. And these may well have proven him to be a fool for having believed in them.
However, when faith is extended in this way toward God, and in particular to the Son and all that He says of God, that is to say, even if it is in our mind to think, "this is a hard thing to understand, it sounds crazy but, I'm willing to be the fool for you (and believe it merely on the basis that You said it to be true, even if it seems that, as much as having been told by some that, I'd be a fool to believe it...), it will always turn out to be revealed (to yourself even) how wise that decision had actually been, even the wisest thing you'd ever done or ever will do.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

At this point, I'm just spraying graffiti on a train car but,

Was it Paul that said in one of his letters, "I am (or was it we are?) a fool for you," regarding the faith that he extended to a bunch of dummies that they would get the message and so he took such time as to preach it. And these may well have proven him to be a fool for having believed in them.

However, when faith is extended in this way toward God, and in particular to the Son and all that He says of God, that is to say, even if it is in our mind to think, "this is a hard thing to understand, it sounds crazy but, I'm willing to be the fool for you (and believe it merely on the basis that You said it to be true, even if it seems that, as much as having been told by some that, I'd be a fool to believe it...), it will always turn out to be revealed (to yourself even) how wise that decision had actually been, even the wisest thing you'd ever done or ever will do.

Yes it was Paul who said, that he feared that when he came to the Corinthian Church, once again, the Lord would make a fool of him in the presence of those brethren he was admonishing in his letter. It is from that passage that we derive the archaic phrase - a 'fool for Christ'.

The idea is that due the spiritual authority Paul was given to plant and protect those churches in his charge, he would necessarily have to endure ridicule from the Corinthians if they would not turn away from their sin. This was because some had started to ridicule Paul and make a comparison between his letters being bold and decisive, yet when present with them, weak in person, and many had 'fallen asleep' and some were boosters of even such things as a son having a sexual relationship with his father's wife.

It doesn't seem credible that some of the Corinthians were in such a 'fleshy' mind.

Your second and chief point, however, (highlighted in red above and italicised for emphasis) is the thing that matters. I think it is that 'towards God' sense that makes it meaningful and qualifies the value of the lesson. The full canopy of that doctrine is called Positional Salvation and the best proponent of its meaning can be found in the writings of Ni Toucheng (Watchman Nee). Sit, Walk, Stand is the slim volume that sets it down clearly.

 

[John146]

Were those chosen in Him before the foundation of the world part of a covenant?

There was none chosen in him before the foundation of the world. The context of Ephesians 1 is the spiritual blessings found in Christ. These spiritual blessings would be found in Christ. This was determined before the foundation of the world. There is no other means to receive these blessings other than Christ. Calvinist missed the important word, "according". This word places the context on what was just said.

 

[Cameron143]

There was none chosen in him before the foundation of the world. The context of Ephesians 1 is the spiritual blessings found in Christ. These spiritual blessings would be found in Christ. This was determined before the foundation of the world. There is no other means to receive these blessings other than Christ. Calvinist missed the important word, "according". This word places the context on what was just said.

Is this a part of the covenant of grace?
Do you believe there is a covenant of grace?
If so, what is the covenant of grace?
If so, who is the covenant of between?
If so, how does one enter into the covenant?