Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"

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FollowerofShiloh

FollowerofShiloh

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Cameron143 said:
Another disingenuous post. I didn't say they weren't different. I said every covenant deals with God's plan for redemption.
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18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law

The LAW was not led by the Spirit because that is the New Covenant not the Old!

The Law = Natural Man!
They DID NOT have the Holy Spirit but still chose to follow God as Natural Man!
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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FollowerofShiloh said:
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law

The LAW was not led by the Spirit because that is the New Covenant not the Old!

The Law = Natural Man!
They DID NOT have the Holy Spirit but still chose to follow God as Natural Man!
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I've already shown this false. Under your premise, man can save himself apart from God and acquire the necessary righteousness through the law. Did I characterize your argument accurately?
 
Evmur

Evmur

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maxamir said:
I am no dispensationalist. The only Israel today is that which is of God made up of those who are circumcised of heart and not of the flesh.

Christ is reigning right now through His people who faithfully herald the great victory He has wrought for them and not some literal 1000 year period.

Col 1:26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.
Col 1:27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

His sovereignty is to be proclaimed in His Gospel so that men may fear Him but most are too cowardly to do so because they have been ensnared by the fear of men.
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So are you under Moses and the law? no that was the old dispensation.

Paul recognised Israel in his day, he says that a veil covers their eyes from seeing Christ whenever Moses is read until the veil is removed. He makes it perfectly plain that the blindness is only partial and temporary. The Jews who are now cast away will be received ... all Israel will be saved.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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FollowerofShiloh said:
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law

The LAW was not led by the Spirit because that is the New Covenant not the Old!

The Law = Natural Man!
They DID NOT have the Holy Spirit but still chose to follow God as Natural Man!
Click to expand...
Abraham wasn't under the law. There was no law from Adam to Moses. No one got saved?
 
FollowerofShiloh

FollowerofShiloh

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Cameron143 said:
I've already shown this false. Under your premise, man can save himself apart from God and acquire the necessary righteousness through the law. Did I characterize your argument accurately?
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So Paul is lying now?
 
FollowerofShiloh

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Cameron143 said:
Abraham wasn't under the law. There was no law from Adam to Moses. No one got saved?
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I am talking about those under the Law

18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law

The LAW was not led by the Spirit because that is the New Covenant not the Old!

The Law = Natural Man!
They DID NOT have the Holy Spirit but still chose to follow God as Natural Man!
 
selahsays

selahsays

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FollowerofShiloh said:
They desired God, they were following the Law. They just did not believe God changed things. But if you followed the Law you only did so because you did so to obey God.
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I don’t understand what you mean by “They just did not believe God changed things.” What things?
 
Evmur

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Inquisitor said:
An appalling interpretation of Romans 11.

Grafting in actually means grafted into Christ.

Grafting out means severed from Christ.

That is why Paul said earlier.

Romans 11:7-10
What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; just as it is written: “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes to see not and ears to hear not, down to this very day.” And David says, “May their table become a snare and a trap, and a stumbling block and a retribution to them. May their eyes be darkened to see not, and bend their backs continually.”

Sure doesn't sound like a lack of a blessing.
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we know they have stumbled, have they stumbled so as to fall? God forbid.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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FollowerofShiloh said:
I am talking about those under the Law

18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law

The LAW was not led by the Spirit because that is the New Covenant not the Old!

The Law = Natural Man!
They DID NOT have the Holy Spirit but still chose to follow God as Natural Man!
Click to expand...
Read Isaiah 1 and 58. They only drew nigh to God with their lips.
Anyone who has ever related to God on the basis of the law died in their sin. This is so because by works of the law no flesh is ever justified. This goes for anyone under any covenant.
Being under the law does not void the need for grace or its application. Grace is necessary for salvation regardless of the covenant.
 
cv5

cv5

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Evmur said:
Yet when I read that God predestined men to be damned I sought God and cried for understanding.
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Better stated: the horrific belief that God created beings for the sole purpose of the lake of fire, with no hope of escaping, this PRESCRIBED DESTINATION [yet future] (aka predestination) being Gods intent from before they were ever born.

This is undoubtedly the gravest blunder of the reformation. Nothing else even comes close.

This grievous error due to their failure to rightly divide the Word, and fully and properly integrate the teachings of the OT.
 
FollowerofShiloh

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Cameron143 said:
Read Isaiah 1 and 58. They only drew nigh to God with their lips.
Anyone who has ever related to God on the basis of the law died in their sin. This is so because by works of the law no flesh is ever justified. This goes for anyone under any covenant.
Being under the law does not void the need for grace or its application. Grace is necessary for salvation regardless of the covenant.
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I said prophets and Isaiah is a prophet like I SAID.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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FollowerofShiloh said:
I said prophets and Isaiah is a prophet like I SAID.
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I'm talking about the people who lived in Isaiah's day. And you are wrong about the Spirit not indwelling OT saints. The NT makes this clear. That's why you believe the natural man can relate to God by the law. But you will believe as you will despite what I have shared.
 
cv5

cv5

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HeIsHere said:
And that is not a problem for those who follow this doctrine.
A little ironic they cannot see truth when they preach the natural man cannot discern truth.
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And why exactly is it that this "natural man" cannot discern the truth? The same reason as Chorazin and Bethsaida? Same reason as Pharaoh? Outright rejection? Hardness of heart? Refusal to believe the Truth? Pride? Denial of sin?

1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth G1209 not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The KJV translates Strong's G1209 in the following manner: receive (52x), take (4x), accept (2x), take up (1x).

No doubt "receiving not" will result in foolishness and ignorance. Always has, always will.
 
FollowerofShiloh

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Cameron143 said:
I'm talking about the people who lived in Isaiah's day. And you are wrong about the Spirit not indwelling OT saints. The NT makes this clear. That's why you believe the natural man can relate to God by the law. But you will believe as you will despite what I have shared.
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The entire list of People Holy Spirit filled in the Old Testament/Mikra:

Only LEADERS and Those with Special Roles for God are filled with the Holy Spirit and the rest are ""Natural Men"" saved under the Law:

  • Joseph was filled with the Spirit of God (Genesis 41:38)
  • The craftsmen who built the tabernacle were filled with the Spirit of God (Exodus 31:3)
  • Joshua was filled with the Spirit of God (Numbers 27:18)
  • The judge Othniel was filled with the Spirit of God (Judges 3:10)
  • The judge Gideon was filled with the Spirit of God (Judges 6:34)
  • The judge Jephthah was filled with the Spirit of God (Judges 11:29)
  • The judge Samson was filled with the Spirit of God (Judges 13:5, 14:6, 14:19, 15:14)
  • Saul was filled with the Spirit of God (1 Samuel 10:9-10)
  • David was filled with the Spirit of God (1 Samuel 16:13)
  • Bezalel is "filled" with the Spirit of God to develop and execute artistic design for the Tabernacle (Exodus 31:2; 35:31).
  • The 70 Elders receive some of the Spirit of God that is on Moses (Numbers 11:17, 25).
  • Prophets prophesy when the Spirit of God comes upon them (2 Chronicles 15:1; 20:14; 24:20; Joel 2:28-29).

Everyone else was a natural man under the Law and Saved because as a natural man they chose to believe in God.
 
cv5

cv5

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FollowerofShiloh said:
The entire list of People Holy Spirit filled in the Old Testament/Mikra:

Only LEADERS and Those with Special Roles for God are filled with the Holy Spirit and the rest are ""Natural Men"" saved under the Law:

  • Joseph was filled with the Spirit of God (Genesis 41:38)
  • The craftsmen who built the tabernacle were filled with the Spirit of God (Exodus 31:3)
  • Joshua was filled with the Spirit of God (Numbers 27:18)
  • The judge Othniel was filled with the Spirit of God (Judges 3:10)
  • The judge Gideon was filled with the Spirit of God (Judges 6:34)
  • The judge Jephthah was filled with the Spirit of God (Judges 11:29)
  • The judge Samson was filled with the Spirit of God (Judges 13:5, 14:6, 14:19, 15:14)
  • Saul was filled with the Spirit of God (1 Samuel 10:9-10)
  • David was filled with the Spirit of God (1 Samuel 16:13)
  • Bezalel is "filled" with the Spirit of God to develop and execute artistic design for the Tabernacle (Exodus 31:2; 35:31).
  • The 70 Elders receive some of the Spirit of God that is on Moses (Numbers 11:17, 25).
  • Prophets prophesy when the Spirit of God comes upon them (2 Chronicles 15:1; 20:14; 24:20; Joel 2:28-29).

Everyone else was a natural man under the Law and Saved because as a natural man they chose to believe in God.
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1Sa 16:13
Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.

Good job bro.....
 
cv5

cv5

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FollowerofShiloh said:
The entire list of People Holy Spirit filled in the Old Testament/Mikra:

Only LEADERS and Those with Special Roles for God are filled with the Holy Spirit and the rest are ""Natural Men"" saved under the Law:

  • Joseph was filled with the Spirit of God (Genesis 41:38)
  • The craftsmen who built the tabernacle were filled with the Spirit of God (Exodus 31:3)
  • Joshua was filled with the Spirit of God (Numbers 27:18)
  • The judge Othniel was filled with the Spirit of God (Judges 3:10)
  • The judge Gideon was filled with the Spirit of God (Judges 6:34)
  • The judge Jephthah was filled with the Spirit of God (Judges 11:29)
  • The judge Samson was filled with the Spirit of God (Judges 13:5, 14:6, 14:19, 15:14)
  • Saul was filled with the Spirit of God (1 Samuel 10:9-10)
  • David was filled with the Spirit of God (1 Samuel 16:13)
  • Bezalel is "filled" with the Spirit of God to develop and execute artistic design for the Tabernacle (Exodus 31:2; 35:31).
  • The 70 Elders receive some of the Spirit of God that is on Moses (Numbers 11:17, 25).
  • Prophets prophesy when the Spirit of God comes upon them (2 Chronicles 15:1; 20:14; 24:20; Joel 2:28-29).

Everyone else was a natural man under the Law and Saved because as a natural man they chose to believe in God.
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The thing is.....the OT law (and the entire OT) IS the Spirit in a sense. It was the gift of the Spirit. It was birthed by the Spirit, had Spiritual content and had Spiritual intent. You could say that those who followed the law in good faith followed the Spirit.

You could say that this was God's chosen program back then.
 
FollowerofShiloh

FollowerofShiloh

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cv5 said:
The thing is.....the OT law (and the entire OT) IS the Spirit in a sense. It was the gift of the Spirit. It was birthed by the Spirit, had Spiritual content and had Spiritual intent. You could say that those who followed the law in good faith followed the Spirit.

You could say that this was God's chosen program back then.
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It definitely is a foreshadow of things to come like the Temple, Ark, Ark of the covenant, and so many things. But only specific people actually were filled with the Spirit of God, unlike today, and those under them were natural men who followed their leaders. But they were natural men and still chose to follow God.
 
FollowerofShiloh

FollowerofShiloh

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FollowerofShiloh said:
It definitely is a foreshadow of things to come like the Temple, Ark, Ark of the covenant, and so many things. But only specific people actually were filled with the Spirit of God, unlike today, and those under them were natural men who followed their leaders. But they were natural men and still chose to follow God.
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Best example:

Joshua was filled with the Spirit of God (Numbers 27:18)

Here the Holy Spirit filled Joshua leading natural men to follow God.

19 But Joshua said to the people, “You are not able to serve the Lord, for he is a holy God. He is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions or your sins.
20 If you forsake the Lord and serve foreign gods, then he will turn and do you harm and consume you, after having done you good.”
21 And the people said to Joshua, “No, but we will serve the Lord.”

Joshua is the only one Holy Spirit filled.

The people in verse 21 are ""natural man"" but able to choose to serve the Lord.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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FollowerofShiloh said:
The entire list of People Holy Spirit filled in the Old Testament/Mikra:

Only LEADERS and Those with Special Roles for God are filled with the Holy Spirit and the rest are ""Natural Men"" saved under the Law:

  • Joseph was filled with the Spirit of God (Genesis 41:38)
  • The craftsmen who built the tabernacle were filled with the Spirit of God (Exodus 31:3)
  • Joshua was filled with the Spirit of God (Numbers 27:18)
  • The judge Othniel was filled with the Spirit of God (Judges 3:10)
  • The judge Gideon was filled with the Spirit of God (Judges 6:34)
  • The judge Jephthah was filled with the Spirit of God (Judges 11:29)
  • The judge Samson was filled with the Spirit of God (Judges 13:5, 14:6, 14:19, 15:14)
  • Saul was filled with the Spirit of God (1 Samuel 10:9-10)
  • David was filled with the Spirit of God (1 Samuel 16:13)
  • Bezalel is "filled" with the Spirit of God to develop and execute artistic design for the Tabernacle (Exodus 31:2; 35:31).
  • The 70 Elders receive some of the Spirit of God that is on Moses (Numbers 11:17, 25).
  • Prophets prophesy when the Spirit of God comes upon them (2 Chronicles 15:1; 20:14; 24:20; Joel 2:28-29).

Everyone else was a natural man under the Law and Saved because as a natural man they chose to believe in God.
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No. The Bible never says that no one else was indwelt by the Spirit. It only says these persons did. By your logic, someone can make a list of the people who are recorded as having received the Spirit in the NT and conclude that's all who did. Bad logic.
Show me the passage that says only those in the above list were the only ones who received the Spirit. Then you will have something.
Meanwhile, I have shown you the impossibility of a relationship with the Father apart from Christ.
 
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