Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"

[Inquisitor]

I'm a Calvinist, and we believe that God's salvation comes to us purely by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8,9). How is my belief unbiblical?

Nothing wrong with quoting Ephesians 2:8-9, well done.

Where you push the boundary is in that doctrine of absolute determinism.

Determinism
The doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined
by causes regarded as external to the will. Some philosophers have taken determinism
to imply that individual human beings have no free will and cannot be held morally
responsible for their actions. (wiki)

That's what a Calvinist believes is the fundamental doctrine of Christianity.

God determines each person's destiny, any person's will is of no effect.

 

[maxamir]

in other words God does not tempt us ... but really He does. God you say is in league with the devil, they work side by side.

God has no truc with sin or the devil. Get THAT wrong and you get the gospel wrong.

the devil is God's devil as confirmed by Job and the Apostle Paul, used of God for His greater glory in refining His holy people. To not know this is to get the whole Bible wrong.

Job 1:12 And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person." So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.

I already told you that Scripture clearly states that God does not tempt anyone but He allows people to be tempted by their own fallen nature which is enslaved to Satan and his evil desires which Christ came to save His people from.

 

[Inquisitor]

View attachment 264455

All the verses from Romans are quoted out of context.

 

[HeIsHere]

I'll give this a shot.

Your belief might be unbiblical because it takes away free-will in this process.
Your belief might be unbiblical because in this scenario we are puppets and this belief is no different than nihilism where nothing really matters. What we do or don't do has no meaning in Nihilism.
Your belief might be unbiblical because it promotes laziness. Why do anything at all since we are God's puppets? Why even be alive?
Your belief might be unbiblical because you're saying that you need faith to get grace? So, there is an element of free-will here or how does this work? Who or What supersedes? Grace or Faith?

I'll leave it at these points for now.

Agree more grim non reality....

those whose heart God does not change preemptively continue to do sin by God's choice
.... are never rescued from it by God's choice
... stand against God and others by God's choice

And they die and spend eternity in this .... wait for it.... by God's choice.

So we have Justice working partially for injustice.
This is the God this doctrine of grace creates.

 

[maxamir]

The church is an predestinated and elect people to become the body of Christ. All others will be judged with equity.

If you think the sheep of Matthew 25 are the church you transgress your own theology for they are judged by their works.

Please read John 10 and tell me that the sheep mentioned are not His church which are His elect and not goats which are reprobates which you continue to deny even exist.

 

[Inquisitor]

the devil is God's devil as confirmed by Job and the Apostle Paul, used of God for His greater glory in refining His holy people. To not know this is to get the whole Bible wrong.

Job 1:12 And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person." So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.

I already told you that Scripture clearly states that God does not tempt anyone but He allows people to be tempted by their own fallen nature which is enslaved to Satan and his evil desires which Christ came to save His people from.

Of course, God controls every decision that mankind makes.

Do you proclaim the sovereignty of God or not?

Or are you a follower of compatibilism?

 

[HeIsHere]

Aww don't hold back, this is the BDF, nothing anyone says here surprises me any more. Although you could be the first. lol

It wasn't really anything, I was just going to reply to this statement by you...

See what I'm getting at?

If they could, they would.... but they can't, so they won't.

 

[maxamir]

gratefully obey eh? endure to the end ... so they are saved by works after all.

I think Christ having given the promise [everlasting life] and we having given the amen and being sealed in the Holy Ghost we will be saved no matter what.

their obedience and endurance is proof before men that their faith is genuine and not fake as James mentions below.

Jas 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

but it is only God given faith that justifies any person before Him and not their works (Rom 3-5).

 

[Magenta]

I do not think that God decreed that people will sin.

I don't think that God controls the minds of serial killers.

I do wonder sometimes if people such as serial killers ever even think of God...

And if they do, what direction their thoughts would run on the matter?

But any ways, surely we can all agree that God knew Adam and Eve would sin?

One view may say He decreed it, as in caused it to happen.

I cannot agree with that view. That makes God the author of evil.

However, God defines what is good, and what is evil, and He did allow it to happen.

God created man knowing Jesus would be necessary to give His life as a ransom for many.

 

[maxamir]

I do not think that God decreed that people will sin.

I don't think that God controls the minds of serial killers.

The Scriptures prove that God justly hands people over to the sin that they love unto their greater condemnation (Rom 1:18-32) and that He is sovereign over all things including the hearts of all men, including kings as seen below.

Pro_21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes.

Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I HAVE RAISED YOU UP, THAT I MAY SHOW MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MAY BE DECLARED IN ALL THE EARTH."
Rom 9:18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

 

[maxamir]

All the verses from Romans are quoted out of context.

because you feel they do not meet your false Israel centric dispensationalist theology which denies the NEW COVENANT?

 

[maxamir]

Of course, God controls every decision that mankind makes.

Do you proclaim the sovereignty of God or not?

Or are you a follower of compatibilism?

 

[fredoheaven]

View attachment 264455

A few examination of the verses favors NON TULIP. Thanks

 

[Evmur]

The Scriptures prove that God justly hands people over to the sin that they love unto their greater condemnation (Rom 1:18-32) and that He is sovereign over all things including the hearts of all men, including kings as seen below.

Pro_21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes.

Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I HAVE RAISED YOU UP, THAT I MAY SHOW MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MAY BE DECLARED IN ALL THE EARTH."
Rom 9:18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

"raised you up" is not "predestined"

 

[Evmur]

their obedience and endurance is proof before men that their faith is genuine and not fake as James mentions below.

Jas 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

but it is only God given faith that justifies any person before Him and not their works (Rom 3-5).

I tell you Christians will fall like nine pins when the great persecution [aka the great tribulation] starts in earnest ... are you so very sure you will stand? beware lest ye fall.

... though they fall they will not lose their salvation.

Many will be offended after being taught that we will not go through the great tribulation.

Belief in Predestination and Election are also utterly crucial beliefs in our ability to stand in the day of trouble. Freewill doctrine is a weakener not a strengthener.

We are on the precipice of these events which is why it is so important to get it right.

 

[Inquisitor]

because you feel they do not meet your false Israel centric dispensationalist theology which denies the NEW COVENANT?

Nah, it's just what the text states.

 

[Evmur]

Please read John 10 and tell me that the sheep mentioned are not His church which are His elect and not goats which are reprobates which you continue to deny even exist.

View attachment 264457

They certainly are

But the sheep of Matthew 25 are certainly not. Cannot possibly be.

Jesus addresses them "Come ye blest of MY Father ... " not YOUR Father or even the Father

They did not understand the Christ in you doctrine for they said "when saw we Thee enhungered or thirsty etc?"

But Jesus said "inasmuch as ye did it to one of the least these MY brethren ... " not YOUR brethren or even the brethren

"These My brethren ..." are the church.

We are taught by John that we are passed over from judgement to life so we will not be judged. Paul teaches us that when He comes to judge God will bring us with Him.

 

[Inquisitor]

View attachment 264461

So where does man's will fit into this scheme of things?

We do make choices every day. Some are good choices and some not so good choices.

Life is a long list of decisions that we are all have to make.

Does God influence each and every decision or just some decisions but not others?

 

[Evmur]

the devil is God's devil as confirmed by Job and the Apostle Paul, used of God for His greater glory in refining His holy people. To not know this is to get the whole Bible wrong.

Job 1:12 And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person." So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.

I already told you that Scripture clearly states that God does not tempt anyone but He allows people to be tempted by their own fallen nature which is enslaved to Satan and his evil desires which Christ came to save His people from.

It is not possible that we could escape the temptations of this world ... that's the critical point. What Job teaches is that the devil is strictly limited in what he can or cannot do with regard to us. Job was perfect, unless we are perfect there is no reason for us to suppose we will be tried in like manner to Job.

Paul also was mighty in spirit having many, many visions and spiritual encounters so unless we also have such mighty revelations we should not expect the same level of buffeting which were the shipwrecks the beatings, false brethren, nakedness and hunger etc.

 

[Evmur]

the only nation of Israel today is that which is made up of true born again believers of the New Covenant. All others who claim to be connected to the Israel of old and are not in Christ Jesus are the imposters which Christ warned of who are of the Synagogue of Satan (Rev 2:9, 3:9) and practice Talmudic Phariseeism.

View attachment 264456

none of this nonsense changes the fact that there is a nation of Jews in the middle east today. They are the same people who have been made to wander the earth these 2, 000 years.

God promised them they would return in the latter days and they have returned.