Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"

[maxamir]

Paul told us the elect, the chosen people (the Jews), were grafted out. (Romans 11)

Those that never knew God were grafted in, these then became the elect. (Romans 11)

Then Paul warned the Gentiles, the newly elect, chosen people of God, below.

Romans 10:19-21
You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

Would you now propose that the Gentiles, the elect, cannot be grafted out?

That would be a direct contradiction of chapter 11 of the letter to the Romans.

Tell me your not saying what I think your saying.

The wall of separation between Jews and Gentiles was broken down and both had become one in Christ (Eph 2:14-16) therefore those who are elect are the true seed of Abraham who are circumcised of the heart and not of the flesh (Rom 2:28-29).

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The Old Covenant has ended and the New Covenant has arrived and as prophesied by Christ the old and its systems was utterly destroyed in 70AD and therefore besides those Judeans who were converted to Christianity, there are none today who can prove any historical lineage to the Israel of old and those who claim to be Judeans (Jews) today are as Christ also prophesied twice, imposters and of the Synagogue of Satan (Rev 2:9, 3:9) who are mostly Khazarian Talmudic Pharisees and if they die in their sin will prove themselves to be reprobates and not the seed of Abraham.

 

[maxamir]

You have made a serious mistake.

You stated, "Calvinism is the biblical doctrine of salvation".

Here is the simplest statement of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:2
For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

How can Calvinism possibly be the doctrine of salvation?

Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart
that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Seriously maximar, what has Calvinism got to do with salvation?

Just confess Jesus Christ, the alpha and the omega, of everything that CHRISTianity proclaims.

which Christ? The JW's, Mormon's, Muslims all say they believe in Christ but unless the Christ you speak of is the Christ of Holy Scripture then that Christ is a false Christ as Christ Himself had warned people will believe in.

Confession is a fruit of those who are saved and not a condition unto salivation as you presume and make into a work and therefore destroy grace.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Unfortunately, it seems like you have succumbed to the false Christ of Arminianism who does not exist and is a figment of the imagination of those who do not yet realise they are spiritually dead and can not do anything to save themselves.

I recommend you all and who think like you to read the short article below.

The Christ of Arminianism (Freewillism)

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

I've just looked CALVINISM up, now; And it sounds terrible!

It is terrible and it is not Biblical. Calvinism teaches that and elect was saved before we ever set foot on earth and the rest are doomed to destruction. A Calvinist believes that these people cannot be saved. Even though the Bible says the opposite and calls for sinners to repent. Calvin himself was a man that never fully came out of Catholicism and had people burned at the stake. Please do not listen to people here who would push you toward this belief. They can be very deceptive, those that are hard core, in their teachings. They say if you don't believe as they do that you believe you saved yourself. Which is utter nonsense. Please ignore anything that has to do with Calvinism, it is false doctrine, period.

 

[maxamir]

In a double word Double Predestination. Limited Atonement [the L of TULIP] is set to shore up Calvin' s doctrine on double predestination.

Predestination and Election should not be applied to salvation at all, our predestination and election is unto the church, to be the body of Christ, the people of God. it is not exclusive to others being saved it is inclusive to others being saved.

It makes the WIDER mercy possible.

without the doctrine of election and predestination there would be no salvation and to deny this is to deny the doctrine of the Trinity and the work of the Godhead wherein the Holy Father chose a number which no man can number from all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues according to the good pleasure of His will and to the praise of the glory of His grace and sent His Holy Son to secure salvation for them that were chosen, confirmed in His perfect obedience unto death and His resurrection wherein the Holy Spirit seals unto these elect the salivation which has been secured for them.

To fail to proclaim this great humbling truth is to deny the whole counsel of God and be guilty of the blood of all men! (Acts 20:26-27).

 

[maxamir]

I've just looked CALVINISM up, now; And it sounds terrible!

The doctrine of God's supreme sovereignty over all things including the salvation of those whom He chooses is indeed terrible to those who trust in themselves and what they do. It proves that salvation belongs to the lord and not the choice of men.

Psa 3:8 Salvation belongs to the LORD.

 

[maxamir]

So how are we supposed to be saved, if we don't believe in Calvinism?!

God commands all men to repent and believe but how can a man repent when he loves his sin and how can a man believe on Christ when all that he does is believe in himself? The answer is that he can not do these things unless he is first born again from above to see this (John 3:3).

Those whom God has chosen will repent and believe because they have been drawn to Christ through the preaching of the Gospel and humbled to cry out to Him to grant them a new heart so that they can obey His just command given to all.

Those who die in their sin will prove that they were never chosen by God and will receive His eternal, perfectly good, righteous, holy and just wrath which every person deserves.

 

[maxamir]

Unless you believe in Calvin and confess his name you cannot be saved.

unless it is granted to you by grace to believe the truth that God is the Author and Finisher of faith and not yourself which the Doctrines of Grace confirm then you can not yet be saved for God resists the proud and only gives His grace to the humble.

 

[maxamir]

maxamir apparently characterizes not being Calvinist as "Those who consistently have faith in their faith rather than a God given faith in the person and wok of Christ"
but it seems a better characterization would be "those who place their faith in the person and work of Christ". this is how Calvinism couches limited atonement. The claim is that no one can have faith unless God wills it. Yet scripture says that God is not willing that anyone should perish, so it would follow that if anyone does perish, it is not God's will. In my view, unbelief is disobeying God's commandment to believe in Christ which is believing in the God as Father because that is Who Jesus revealed as God to the world. So, in my view, "unless the Father draws you," means that we come to the Father (not just "God") through the Son, by the Spirit, hence Salvation, by Grace through Faith. That is, the means to God is through God, by God, and we've only to believe and trust that as true.

Scripture needs to always be taken in its immediate and overall context and the verse you use to say that God does not desire any to perish is said to those to whom it is written which is Christians and not every single person in the world without exception. Such a view makes God out to be frustrated and not able to do what He decrees He will do.

If God does not want any to perish then why did Christ rejoice below and thanked His Father for hiding the truth from many and even said it was good to do so?

Luk 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

 

[maxamir]

I am not a Calvinist and I know that if I were to die this moment I would go to Heaven where God is at because I am saved.

can you please share with all here how do you know you are saved and where do you look for assurance?

 

[maxamir]

I believe that anyone can "see" the Father, as Jesus revealed Him to the world, and once we do, that is the moment we know Him as He knows us.

how does what you said fit in with the Scriptures below?

Mat_11:27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

Joh_8:19 Then they said to Him, "Where is Your Father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also."

1Jn_3:1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.

 

[maxamir]

It is too bad that the quintessential type provided by Christ to teach us is lost on the Church today.
And under scrutiny, the hyper-Calvinists are dead wrong....obviously.

Unbelief is willfully refusing to drink the cup of marriage betrothal offered by Christ Jesus, likewise the cup symbolizing the entering into the New Covenant.

These cups....

Luk 22:17
And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
Luk 22:20
Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

How many people do you know that make a free will choice to refuse the offer of marriage (and redemption) that the Bridegroom has made also of His own free will (and at great cost and Personal sacrifice)?
Furthermore, how many can plead ignorance at this point in history? Bibles are FREELY available, and there are living breathing Israelites right now in the land of Israel.

IMO God always has a witness, and is always calling. Its just that few care to respond.

Rev 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

All men have a free will according to their nature which God Himself confirms after the Fall is only evil continually (Gen 6:5). Was He wrong?

 

[maxamir]

It’s not about a man named Calvin or a flower acronym. It’s about what the Bible says.

agreed, and everything that men say must be judged by what the Bible says for the Scriptures are given for this reason.

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 

[Mem]

why do you twist what I said?

so you do not agree that unless you believe in Calvinism, you are cursed?

 

[maxamir]

I hope you will let the Bible speak for itself. The Bible is not what Calvin says; so then, stop obsessing about Calvin. What does the Bible say? It is written.

then please prove by using the Bible that what Calvin said was unbiblical. Failure to do so will and correct those you believe are in error will prove that the love of God is not yet in you (1 Jn 3:17).

 

[maxamir]

The problem was not John Calvin. The problem was the "ism: associated with his teaching. The over-emphasis on the "Elect" or Election
is man's Selection of who is or is not saved? That is the game no man should be playing.

Faith, hope, and Love these three. Remain, the greatest is Love. Yet our Calvinist elites have changed the elect of God to the Selection of man.

I am very sure that Calvin did not ask to have an "ism" placed net to his name and only sought to proclaim what the Scriptures said which many today choose not to hear for it does not scratch their ears (2 Tim 4:3-4).

 

[maxamir]

I follow the script Paul presented and Peter confirmed what Paul wrote was doctrine.

I will not belong to any church denomination or for that matter, any interpretation of the scripture.

1 Corinthians 2:2
For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

Only the shed blood of Jesus Christ can atone for our appalling bad behavior.

Paul warned the Gentiles that they could be grafted out just as the Jews had been (Romans 11).

Nor do I believe that mankind has a perfect free will.

According to Paul the mechanism of our salvation was a mystery.

Romans 11
For God has shut up all in disobedience, so that He may show mercy to all. Oh, the depth of the riches,
both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!

the mystery which has been kept secret since the world began has been revealed in Christ!

Col_1:26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.
Col_1:27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

 

[maxamir]

so you do not agree that unless you believe in Calvinism, you are cursed?

I guarantee that there will be many proud Calvinists in Hell. You are not saved by what you have in your head but what you have in your heart which is only given to men by grace alone, though faith alone, in Christ alone, as revealed in the Scriptures alone and to the glory of God alone!

 

[maxamir]

I did see the answer to this question and I knew that is what it was going to be, but I just wanted to add that I did read a post a little while ago (a couple of weeks back, maybe?) that basically asserted that anyone who doesn't believe the 5 points of Calvinism is essentially not saved. That same person said they doubt that anyone who denies Calvinistic thought knows Jesus personally. So there are some who believe that. Sadly...

the Doctrines of Grace which you call Calvinism describes who Christ is from Scripture and what He came to do.

Did Christ come to make salvation possible for those who choose Him or did He come to save His people from their sins as Scripture says below?

Mat_1:21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins."

 

[Mem]

I guarantee that there will be many proud Calvinists in Hell. You are not saved by what you have in your head but what you have in your heart which is only given to men by grace alone, though faith alone, in Christ alone, as revealed in the Scriptures alone and to the glory of God alone!

Okay then, do you agree that unless you are a true Calvinist, you are cursed?

 

[maxamir]

Perhaps we can untangle the order of faith and believing. It doesn't seem that it is possible to have faith without believing but, apparently, it is possible to believe without having faith. So, these must be distinctly different conditions although they may appear similar on the surface. And, since the central idea at the crux of this argument is the assertion that no one can believe without first being given faith, then examininghow faith and belief work, whether together or separately, might provide a clearer understanding of where belief actually (has to come from? has to go to?) in order for it to be bona fide faith. I mean I can believe something and be wrong and, if I have faith in that belief, then it follows that, according to scriptural definition of faith (the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen- Hebrews 11:1) I would believe it even if I don't actually see it and, at the least, it is evidence of something that I hope for.
Personally, I believe the key to this answer is "in the Name."

the real question that needs to eb asked is whether this faith/belief that saves a person comes from within man or is granted to man as a gift as seen in the verses below?

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Php 1:29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

Act 18:27 And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace;