Mind over Matter, or Matter over Mind?

[jimmydiggs]

I have been taking psychology classes and am currently in a psychology class and a sociology class. Many of the things presented are very contrary to the entire concept of a diety of some form. Most of it, I can counter-argue. There is one issue that I can't figure anything out either way, and most of my resources on issues like defending the bible aren't helping with this.

To put it simply. Does the mind make the brain, or the brain make the mind?

In my psychology book, it prefers the latter. It denies the existance of the Spirit and Soul.

So, my questions are.


What evidence is there for the conscious to not be 100% brain bound?
What evidence (extra-biblical) is there of the Spirit or Soul?


Thank You.

 

[Credo_ut_Intelligam]

I have been taking psychology classes and am currently in a psychology class and a sociology class. Many of the things presented are very contrary to the entire concept of a diety of some form. Most of it, I can counter-argue. There is one issue that I can't figure anything out either way, and most of my resources on issues like defending the bible aren't helping with this.

To put it simply. Does the mind make the brain, or the brain make the mind?

In my psychology book, it prefers the latter. It denies the existance of the Spirit and Soul.

So, my questions are.


What evidence is there for the conscious to not be 100% brain bound?
What evidence (extra-biblical) is there of the Spirit or Soul?


Thank You.

This is actually a philosophical issue that can get a little complicated. I wouldn't introduce anyone to philosophy by making them brush up on the field of philosophy of mind!

Basically, Christianity has normally supported some sort of dualism. There are different kinds of dualism. For instance there is cartesian substance dualism (one substance is the body and the other the brain) and there is a thomistic dualism (which does not believe that body/mind constitute two different substances). But Christians have also argued for a materialist view of human persons (Kevin Corcoran and Robert Kane I think are Christian materialists in this sense). And these Christian materialists do try to explain how they understand Bible verses that many think teach dualism. Whether they are persuasive or not you'd have to decide for yourself.

The basic argument for dualism goes that states like qualia or intentionality cannot be accounted for on a materialist view. But I would suggest you pick up this book: Amazon.com: The Philosophy of Mind: A Short Introduction (9781851683765): Edward Feser: Books (the author, Edward Feser, is a Catholic and he supports a thomistic dualism I believe).

 

[Credo_ut_Intelligam]

I have been taking psychology classes and am currently in a psychology class and a sociology class. Many of the things presented are very contrary to the entire concept of a diety of some form. Most of it, I can counter-argue. There is one issue that I can't figure anything out either way, and most of my resources on issues like defending the bible aren't helping with this.

To put it simply. Does the mind make the brain, or the brain make the mind?

In my psychology book, it prefers the latter. It denies the existance of the Spirit and Soul.

So, my questions are.


What evidence is there for the conscious to not be 100% brain bound?
What evidence (extra-biblical) is there of the Spirit or Soul?


Thank You.

Also, does the psychology book actually present arguments for materialism or does it just assume it in some of its statements? I suspect the latter as I've read a few intro. to psych. books and usually they assume it but don't give much by way of argument. I never thought that anything the textbooks said was too controversial because even a cartesian dualist (which assumes more distinction than any of the others I'm aware of) recognizes that physical brain states can and do effect mental states. So a dualist can get along pretty well with your average psych. intro.

 

[ed]

I have been taking psychology classes and am currently in a psychology class and a sociology class. Many of the things presented are very contrary to the entire concept of a diety of some form. Most of it, I can counter-argue. There is one issue that I can't figure anything out either way, and most of my resources on issues like defending the bible aren't helping with this.

To put it simply. Does the mind make the brain, or the brain make the mind?

In my psychology book, it prefers the latter. It denies the existance of the Spirit and Soul.

So, my questions are.


What evidence is there for the conscious to not be 100% brain bound?
What evidence (extra-biblical) is there of the Spirit or Soul?


Thank You.

Hi jimmydiggs,
If you have a concordance check out "heart"
eg Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts

Would you believe that Chinese Traditional Medicine ( acupuncture and philosophy) contain a heart/mind
I know this as I used to be an acupuncturist.
The bible says that when the spirit leaves the body dies. I think you could find some great writings on the body just before death and just after death.
If you lived for a while in some non-christian country, you would receive ample and maybe terrifying evidence of spiritual activity.
Also have you listened to people speaking in tongues.
Is any of this a help to you.
remember that the kingdom of heaven has a different set of physics to this world. See Jesus's healings, walking on water, locks coming undone etc etc.
Surely many illogical events have taken place in your life.
love
edwin.

 

[UsugimiBilly]

I have been taking psychology classes and am currently in a psychology class and a sociology class. Many of the things presented are very contrary to the entire concept of a diety of some form. Most of it, I can counter-argue. There is one issue that I can't figure anything out either way, and most of my resources on issues like defending the bible aren't helping with this.

To put it simply. Does the mind make the brain, or the brain make the mind?

In my psychology book, it prefers the latter. It denies the existance of the Spirit and Soul.

So, my questions are.


What evidence is there for the conscious to not be 100% brain bound?
What evidence (extra-biblical) is there of the Spirit or Soul?


Thank You.

There is no evidence for anything non-physical because everything is physical. There is no soul. There is not even a real conscienceness. It's an illusion created by overlapping neural networks that shuts down between the time we fall asleep and when we begin dreaming. Basically, we are complex organic computers. Life is a lie.

 

[loveschild]

I have been taking psychology classes and am currently in a psychology class and a sociology class. Many of the things presented are very contrary to the entire concept of a diety of some form. Most of it, I can counter-argue. There is one issue that I can't figure anything out either way, and most of my resources on issues like defending the bible aren't helping with this.

To put it simply. Does the mind make the brain, or the brain make the mind?

In my psychology book, it prefers the latter. It denies the existance of the Spirit and Soul.

So, my questions are.


What evidence is there for the conscious to not be 100% brain bound?
What evidence (extra-biblical) is there of the Spirit or Soul?


Thank You.

"Mind of Christ" in the Bible: 1 Corinthians 2:15-16
Human reasoning isn't enough to discern spiritual good from evil, but believers have the "mind of Christ"--a godly mindset that directs their choices and actions. We are to strive to abandon our old mindset and adopt a Christ-centered worldview.

 

[UsugimiBilly]

"Mind of Christ" in the Bible: 1 Corinthians 2:15-16
Human reasoning isn't enough to discern spiritual good from evil, but believers have the "mind of Christ"--a godly mindset that directs their choices and actions. We are to strive to abandon our old mindset and adopt a Christ-centered worldview.

How did you learn of Jesus? Did you find out about his existence via a vision,dream, or something of that sort? If a human had to tell you then your argument is invalid.

 

[AnandaHya]

I have been taking psychology classes and am currently in a psychology class and a sociology class. Many of the things presented are very contrary to the entire concept of a diety of some form. Most of it, I can counter-argue. There is one issue that I can't figure anything out either way, and most of my resources on issues like defending the bible aren't helping with this.

To put it simply. Does the mind make the brain, or the brain make the mind?

In my psychology book, it prefers the latter. It denies the existance of the Spirit and Soul.

So, my questions are.


What evidence is there for the conscious to not be 100% brain bound?
What evidence (extra-biblical) is there of the Spirit or Soul?


Thank You.

have you looked into case studies of people declared medically brain dead and their memories and experiences when they regain conciousness?

There are some examples of people in the Bible who record that they had experiences outside their body and what would you consider "evidence" of the Spirit and soul?

Most other religions believe in the existence of a soul but I'm not sure if you would count that as "evidence"

how would you measure something spiritual if you do not have spiritual instruments and discernment to see and hear the things in the spirit world?

It is like trying to pick up radio waves without the use of a radio. You know they are in the air around you but without a receiver you can not distinguish between the different frequencies.

there are fringes of popular science that are studying the electromagnetic body and perhaps with the advancing of technology one could explore further that field and avenue of research and see if you can find what people would call the spirit body in those manifestations since the brain and nervous system is consistantly putting off electrical and chemical signs to communicate.

personally I believe that God breathes the soul of life into the material being and that soul guides the formation of the body and controls all matter God has given into their dominion. For the Bible tells us that our bodies are our temples to God and we are to keep it sacred.

I believe our bodies and our lives are the one talent God gives us to care for and He looks and sees what we do and decides if we are to be entrusted with other treasures in this world like the precious life of a child, spouse or brethren.

When we eat we should thank God for the food and ask that the nourishment helps to support the various cells in our bodies and pray that whatever poison or pollution that might harm us will not be accumulated in our bodies but excreted out with the waste products.

there are laws of nature and this world we must follow because God told us that we must run the race according to the rules to be crowned. therefore basic nutrition, excerise and hygeine should be observed in order to maintain the health of the body, mind and spirit.

we are not just spirit we also have a carnal body and though we strive to walk according to the Spirit and not the flesh we should still care and maintain a healthy balance of not only work but activities that bring joy and peace.

 

[UsugimiBilly]

It is like trying to pick up radio waves without the use of a radio. You know they are in the air around you but without a receiver you can not distinguish between the different frequencies.

there are fringes of popular science that are studying the electromagnetic body and perhaps with the advancing of technology one could explore further that field and avenue of research and see if you can find what people would call the spirit body in those manifestations since the brain and nervous system is consistantly putting off electrical and chemical signs to communicate.

Except that it's possible to make a radio to detect waves while it's impossible to detect spirits from an
ohmmeter or make such a spiritual device. Although a certain idiot (if he believes what he's preaching) has made such a stupid device.

 

[AnandaHya]

Except that it's possible to make a radio to detect waves while it's impossible to detect spirits from an
ohmmeter or make such a spiritual device. Although a certain idiot (if he believes what he's preaching) has made such a stupid device.

before the radio was invented did people believe radio waves existed?

(not that I think you should be seeking to contact or measure spirits) just that your argument that because we can not at this time measure and you can not perceive it does not mean it is non-existent.

does it really matter? either you have faith in what God says in the Bible or you do not.

If you do not then you do not have the spiritual eyes and are blind to that realm so no amount of talking will convince you since there is no light for you to see what is being said.

If you do believe then pray to God about it and read what the Bible has to say about it.

1 Corinthians 15
35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh[c] of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.”[d] The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord[e] from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear[f] the image of the heavenly Man.

so do you OR do you not believe that Jesus was resurrected and if you are a child of God and are a disciple of Christ you too will be resurrected in glorified bodies?

 

[UsugimiBilly]

I admit you do make a point. There's probably some things that we haven't been able to detect but I can't see how it will be possible to prove that there are spirits or anything of that nature. It just feels ridiculous for me to depend only on faith because it seems more likely to me that it's all just fabricated by humans.

 

[loveschild]

How did you learn of Jesus? Did you find out about his existence via a vision,dream, or something of that sort? If a human had to tell you then your argument is invalid.

1. 1 Corinthians 2:16
   For who has known or understood the mind (the counsels and purposes) of the Lord so as to guide and instruct Him and give Him knowledge? But we have the mind of Christ (the Messiah) and do hold the thoughts (feelings and purposes) of His heart.
   1 Corinthians 2:15-16 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 2 (Whole Chapter)

Hearing the word for one thing. Humans read the word to me. Wasn't invalid as you say to me. Your reply is strange to me. You trying to be your own god or what??

 

[loveschild]

In school they told me we all came from monkey's. At some point you need to use your own mind. Talk to God.

 

[jimmydiggs]

It's ALLIIVEEEE!!!

Seriously though. Old thread is old. Usigimi, how in the world did you find it?


I've actually learned a fair amount about this subject since January, to be quite honest. For example, I picked up a book Credo_Ut_Intelligam suggested for me, Philosophy Made Slightly Less Difficult by Garret J. DeWeese, and J. P. Moreland.

It presents not only a critique of physicalism, but also provides several arguments for Substance/Property Dualism.



I'm not really interested in debating the matter though, FallingAlex. It's much too difficult for me to comprehend fully at this point in time.

EDIT: God Bless Credo_Ut_Intelligam for being such a help for me in the academics of Christianity. I've been able to ask him questions in his email, and it's been a tremendous help.

 

[pickles]

I dont know if this has any baring on the subject.
But I reciently listened to a program where, ( I hope I have the name right ) Steven Halkings spoke to science proving there is no god.
Simply because before the begining, there was nothing, no movement, thus nothing, so no god.
One could speak to the mind in the same way, there is nothing before the brain, as there is no movement with out it.
As I listened to Steven sppeak to prior to the event that brought life, saying there was no beginning or end before this beginning.
Thus no God.
I could not help but feel sad for Him, as what He dismissed as nothing, was exactly what is spoken by God, I am.
God said I am, thus, He is the no beginning and no end, but presant.
It was this presant that spoke,the word, thus bringing creation of the heavens and earth.
Simply because one cannot understand, does not mean there is no existance.
I have often tried to explain, how the knowladge in Jesus , of God Our Father can be, how it exists not just in my mind, heart and soul, but is.
How this knowladge is, as it does not agree always with the mind, but stands firm within, a knowladge that is alive in me, but not of me.
I only know that it is, and became fully created in me and continues to be , simply by recieving the word. Jesus!

Now I know this is all simply something speaking to what flesh looks to, and will only listen to what is flesh.
But maby all that can see only in flesh, simply because they refuse to accept what they cannot see.

It is so much easyer simply looking to Jesus, thus all the thinking and understanding that confuses and never stops questioning,
would know the answer through faith.

God bless.
pickles

ps,in collage, I really enjoyed making my profesor crazy, questioning what he thought was fact.

 

[UsugimiBilly]

It's ALLIIVEEEE!!!

Seriously though. Old thread is old. Usigimi, how in the world did you find it?


I've actually learned a fair amount about this subject since January, to be quite honest. For example, I picked up a book Credo_Ut_Intelligam suggested for me, Philosophy Made Slightly Less Difficult by Garret J. DeWeese, and J. P. Moreland.

It presents not only a critique of physicalism, but also provides several arguments for Substance/Property Dualism.



I'm not really interested in debating the matter though, FallingAlex. It's much too difficult for me to comprehend fully at this point in time.

EDIT: God Bless Credo_Ut_Intelligam for being such a help for me in the academics of Christianity. I've been able to ask him questions in his email, and it's been a tremendous help.

I noticed how boring the current threads were and searched for an interesting one. I love discussing philosophy of the mind because I think physicalism is very interesting. While some might think it's depressing or scary, I just love the idea that life is just an illusion and that we're not really who we suspect we are. It's been so boring without the atheists so if I get banned again I'm not coming back. The more boring things become the more offensive I'll get.