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F
No that's what some false teacher taught you. It does not fit a parable, read other parables. What is it teaching if just a parable? To give to beggars?
Why all the details then, that are not commonly in other parables?
Why the flame? Why the thirst? Why the gulf that prevents passing from one place to the other?
I am sure you can make something up for each of these, but tell me, how many other parables do you have to use your imagination to interpret?
Why all the details then, that are not commonly in other parables?
Why the flame? Why the thirst? Why the gulf that prevents passing from one place to the other?
I am sure you can make something up for each of these, but tell me, how many other parables do you have to use your imagination to interpret?
E
It speaks about the fact if the jews (and still pertains to us today) who would not listen to the prophets. God raising someone from the dead who has tasted hell will not help either. If they can't hear the words of God from the living, they won't hear it from the dead.
It has nothing to do with gentile vs jew anything.
He used a real life thing to make a real life point.
Hell is real, if you don't believe it, you may get a big surprise one day. If your not in Christ. you will not just die and cease to exist. this is a false, and dangerous precept
It has nothing to do with gentile vs jew anything.
He used a real life thing to make a real life point.
Hell is real, if you don't believe it, you may get a big surprise one day. If your not in Christ. you will not just die and cease to exist. this is a false, and dangerous precept
T
If they are concious, they are alive. And they would have to have eternal life too, in order to be tortured forever. Jesus never uses that language. In fact, the parable (and it is a parable) of the rich man and lazarus was al known and used parable of the Jews of that time. It wasn't identical with the names, but they had one like it. The whole point that Jesus attaches to the parable is at the end, "if they don't listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they listen to one that was raised from the dead." The bible no where speaks of people being able to converse with one anther from across some great gulf. It never teaches that the saved in heaven will be able to look across somewhere and see the damned being tormented.
Jesus said "not to fear the one who can destoy the body, but afterward can do nothing else, but fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in hell/gehenna." Go will destroy both body and soul of all unbeievers. Why else would Jesus say it? To hold to a literal place called hell, where people will be kept alive forever to be tortured, would require you to throw out the meanings of so many words that would have been understood in their natural sense by the original readers. Perish, destroy, die, kill, or death, doesn't mean perish, destroy, die, kill, or death to ones that hold the position of everlating torment.
A place of eternal torment is not taught at all in the Old Testament. And there are only but less than a handful that could be misconstured as teaching it in the NT. But the overwhelming teachin of Jesus and the other NT writers is the destruction of the unsaved.
And BTW, you analysis of people doing what thye want now because there is no eternal punishment to face doesn't wash. The unsaved of the world have never been deterred from committing the worst kinds of crimes, including mass murder, because of the teaching of hell. And the saved don't trust on their Lord only to be delivered from punishment, but out of love. But if you've read through the whole thread, you would have seen that I show the bible does teach the punishment and destruction of the unsaved. How that will all work out, we don't know.
You would do well to look up the word hell in a concordance and follow it through the entire bible to see what the real teaching is.
Believe me, I know it sound heretical, as I too used to rail against it. But I only held to the teaching of eternal torment because I thought that's what the bible taught. So many people follow what has been taught them from others down through the years without checking it out for themselves. That is all I ask, check it out for yourself. If after going throug all of the verses you still hold to everlasting concious torment, then stick to it. I never ask anyone to change a position based on what I say, but on what they see from all of the evidence.
God bless.
Tom
Jesus said "not to fear the one who can destoy the body, but afterward can do nothing else, but fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in hell/gehenna." Go will destroy both body and soul of all unbeievers. Why else would Jesus say it? To hold to a literal place called hell, where people will be kept alive forever to be tortured, would require you to throw out the meanings of so many words that would have been understood in their natural sense by the original readers. Perish, destroy, die, kill, or death, doesn't mean perish, destroy, die, kill, or death to ones that hold the position of everlating torment.
A place of eternal torment is not taught at all in the Old Testament. And there are only but less than a handful that could be misconstured as teaching it in the NT. But the overwhelming teachin of Jesus and the other NT writers is the destruction of the unsaved.
And BTW, you analysis of people doing what thye want now because there is no eternal punishment to face doesn't wash. The unsaved of the world have never been deterred from committing the worst kinds of crimes, including mass murder, because of the teaching of hell. And the saved don't trust on their Lord only to be delivered from punishment, but out of love. But if you've read through the whole thread, you would have seen that I show the bible does teach the punishment and destruction of the unsaved. How that will all work out, we don't know.
You would do well to look up the word hell in a concordance and follow it through the entire bible to see what the real teaching is.
Believe me, I know it sound heretical, as I too used to rail against it. But I only held to the teaching of eternal torment because I thought that's what the bible taught. So many people follow what has been taught them from others down through the years without checking it out for themselves. That is all I ask, check it out for yourself. If after going throug all of the verses you still hold to everlasting concious torment, then stick to it. I never ask anyone to change a position based on what I say, but on what they see from all of the evidence.
God bless.
Tom
T
Isn't it curious that Jesus always contrasts eternal life with death or perishing? Even in one of the most quoted verses in the Bible; John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only son, that whoever believes in him should NOT PERISH but have ETERNAL LIFE. If no one ever dies, the lost or the saved, this contrast again would make no sense.
Again in John 10:27-28 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them ETERNAL LIFE and they shall NEVER PERISH,..... Again, the contrast between eternal life and perishing. Jesus could have easily said that anyone that believes in me will come to heaven with me, and whoever doesn't believe will go to a place of hell forever. But he never does this. His contrast is alway between eternal life and death.
John 17:1-2 "When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, "Father the hour has come; glorify your son that the son may glorify you, since you have givien him authority over all flesh, TO GIVE ETERNAL LIFE TO ALL WHOM YOU HAVE GIVEN HIM. Again, if all have eternal life anyway, this verse would make no sense.
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is DEATH, but the free gift of God is ETERNAL LIFE in Christ Jesus our Lord. Again the contrast between life and death.
I can go on, but I'm afraid it would take up too much space!!!! I encourage everyone to at least restudy their position on this matter, to go through all of the relevant verses and prayerfully consider them. I don't want anyone to take my word for it, or to think I based my conclusions on a man's book. Everyone must settle all issues of doctrine in their own mind through the study of the scriptures, and not take anyone's word as truth if they can't prove it from the Bible.
I will just leave with one more Bible reference. 1st John 2:24-25 " Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that He made to us- ETERNAL LIFE." Again, if everyone is given eternal life to live one place or another, this verse makes no sense.
I only ask everyone here to consider this position as a possibility and check it out fully for themselves. I am convinced of it after much study. If you hold a different position based on your careful study of the Bible, then don't leave it. All things must be of faith and settled in our own mind.
God bless, my friends!!!!
Tom
Again in John 10:27-28 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them ETERNAL LIFE and they shall NEVER PERISH,..... Again, the contrast between eternal life and perishing. Jesus could have easily said that anyone that believes in me will come to heaven with me, and whoever doesn't believe will go to a place of hell forever. But he never does this. His contrast is alway between eternal life and death.
John 17:1-2 "When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, "Father the hour has come; glorify your son that the son may glorify you, since you have givien him authority over all flesh, TO GIVE ETERNAL LIFE TO ALL WHOM YOU HAVE GIVEN HIM. Again, if all have eternal life anyway, this verse would make no sense.
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is DEATH, but the free gift of God is ETERNAL LIFE in Christ Jesus our Lord. Again the contrast between life and death.
I can go on, but I'm afraid it would take up too much space!!!! I encourage everyone to at least restudy their position on this matter, to go through all of the relevant verses and prayerfully consider them. I don't want anyone to take my word for it, or to think I based my conclusions on a man's book. Everyone must settle all issues of doctrine in their own mind through the study of the scriptures, and not take anyone's word as truth if they can't prove it from the Bible.
I will just leave with one more Bible reference. 1st John 2:24-25 " Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that He made to us- ETERNAL LIFE." Again, if everyone is given eternal life to live one place or another, this verse makes no sense.
I only ask everyone here to consider this position as a possibility and check it out fully for themselves. I am convinced of it after much study. If you hold a different position based on your careful study of the Bible, then don't leave it. All things must be of faith and settled in our own mind.
God bless, my friends!!!!
Tom
T
Another two verses to consider: 1st John 3:15 "Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that NO MURDERER HAS ETERNAL LIFE ABIDING IN HIM."
1st John 5:13 "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God THAT YOU MAY KNOW THAT YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE."
Again, the contrast between the saved who will have eternal life and the lost who don't. John mentions nothing of the unsaved having eternal life in order to suffer somewhere forever.
I would also like to mention that the Bible is very clear that every human being will be raised at the last day to stand for judgment. The saved to life everlasting and the wicked to punishment and destruction. Again, I don't know in what manner and for what duration the destruction process will last. We are talking about a time when time will be no more, we will be in eternity.
Let us all look to Jesus for salvation from all of this. He is able to save to the uttermost and bestow immortality on His chosen ones. I disagree when you say if sinners are ultimnately destroyed, then they aren't truly punished or suffer loss. They will lose eternal communion with the triune God!!!! If that isn't punishment and loss, then I don't know what is.
God bless!!!!
Tom
1st John 5:13 "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God THAT YOU MAY KNOW THAT YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE."
Again, the contrast between the saved who will have eternal life and the lost who don't. John mentions nothing of the unsaved having eternal life in order to suffer somewhere forever.
I would also like to mention that the Bible is very clear that every human being will be raised at the last day to stand for judgment. The saved to life everlasting and the wicked to punishment and destruction. Again, I don't know in what manner and for what duration the destruction process will last. We are talking about a time when time will be no more, we will be in eternity.
Let us all look to Jesus for salvation from all of this. He is able to save to the uttermost and bestow immortality on His chosen ones. I disagree when you say if sinners are ultimnately destroyed, then they aren't truly punished or suffer loss. They will lose eternal communion with the triune God!!!! If that isn't punishment and loss, then I don't know what is.
God bless!!!!
Tom
T
The phrase gnashing of teeth is not referring to someone in pain or anguish, but someone who is filled wiith anger. At the end of the world when the lost receive their sentence of death and know they will not enherit the new heavens and earth, some will weep from sorrow and some will be angry at God.
Again, if we take a concordance and go through all of the Bible where the word gnash is found, it always speaks of rage and anger.
Here are all the references:
Job 16:9 "He has torn me in his wrath and hated me; he has gnashed his teeth at me; my adversary sharpens his eyes against me."
Psalm 35:16 "like profane mockers at a feast, they gnash at me with thier teeth."
Psalm 37:12 "The wicked plots against the righteous and gnashes his teeth at him."
Psalm 112:10 "The wicked man sees it and is angry; he gnashes his teeth and melts away; the desire of the wicked will perish!" Please read this whole Psalm, it is edifying to say the least.
Lamentations 2:16 "All your enimies rail against you; they hiss, they gnash their teeth, they cry: We have swallowed her! Ah, this is the day we longed for; now we have it; we see it!"
That is all of the references to gnashing with teeth in the old testament.
In Acts 7:54 we read "Now when they heard this, they were cut to the quick, and they began gnashing their teeth at him." NASB
Seeing all of these references, we can now read the other verses of the new testament that speak of gnashing of teeth more clearly. I too used to think it meant anguish and sorrow, but it doesn't at all.
Here are the other new testament references:
Mark 9:18
Matthew 8:12, 13:42,50, 22:13, 24:51, 25:30
Luke 13:28
Please check all of this carefully.
God bless, my friend!!!!
Tom
Again, if we take a concordance and go through all of the Bible where the word gnash is found, it always speaks of rage and anger.
Here are all the references:
Job 16:9 "He has torn me in his wrath and hated me; he has gnashed his teeth at me; my adversary sharpens his eyes against me."
Psalm 35:16 "like profane mockers at a feast, they gnash at me with thier teeth."
Psalm 37:12 "The wicked plots against the righteous and gnashes his teeth at him."
Psalm 112:10 "The wicked man sees it and is angry; he gnashes his teeth and melts away; the desire of the wicked will perish!" Please read this whole Psalm, it is edifying to say the least.
Lamentations 2:16 "All your enimies rail against you; they hiss, they gnash their teeth, they cry: We have swallowed her! Ah, this is the day we longed for; now we have it; we see it!"
That is all of the references to gnashing with teeth in the old testament.
In Acts 7:54 we read "Now when they heard this, they were cut to the quick, and they began gnashing their teeth at him." NASB
Seeing all of these references, we can now read the other verses of the new testament that speak of gnashing of teeth more clearly. I too used to think it meant anguish and sorrow, but it doesn't at all.
Here are the other new testament references:
Mark 9:18
Matthew 8:12, 13:42,50, 22:13, 24:51, 25:30
Luke 13:28
Please check all of this carefully.
God bless, my friend!!!!
Tom
B
Why does Jesus say some will receive greater damnation?
If the wicked are annihilated then that seems like equal punishment and damnation to me.
Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
If the wicked are annihilated then that seems like equal punishment and damnation to me.
Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
T
The word damnation in the KJV is really the word condemnation. As I've said in this thread, there is a place for punishment before being destroyed for the unsaved. So some will indeed be punished more severly before being ultimately destroyed.
This is no happy subject no matter how we cut it. The Bible says "it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." But God will fit the punishment to the crimes and then destroy them. There is no evidence that once all of the saved are with the Lord in the new heavens and new earth, that God will reserve this place somewhere out there for the unsaved, just in order to torture them unendingly. What pleasure would God get out of that??? I don't know of anyone who would torture someone forever (if they could) for committing a crime against them. At least I know I wouldn't.
God bless.
Tom
This is no happy subject no matter how we cut it. The Bible says "it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." But God will fit the punishment to the crimes and then destroy them. There is no evidence that once all of the saved are with the Lord in the new heavens and new earth, that God will reserve this place somewhere out there for the unsaved, just in order to torture them unendingly. What pleasure would God get out of that??? I don't know of anyone who would torture someone forever (if they could) for committing a crime against them. At least I know I wouldn't.
God bless.
Tom
T
God forbid that I base my conclusions on what I "feel" instead of what God's word says. I have shown many verses throughout this thread about the contrast betwwen eternal lie and death.
Let's just go through 1st John for a bit:
1st John 2:17 "And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever."
Does this verse say the wicked abide forever? No.
1st John 2:25 "And this is the promisse that He made to us---eternal life."
This verse is speaking of believers given the promise of eternal life. If the condemned go on forever in torment, they too would have eternal life. But the Bible never says that. It always speaks of eternal life as a gift from God to the saved.
1st John 3:13-15 "Do not be surprised, brothers, that the world hates you. We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death. Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."
If no murderer has eternal life abiding in him, how can he go on forever being punished??? That would be eternal life too.
1st John 5:11-13 "Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life."
Again, the clear contrast between having eternal life and not having eternal life. John doesn't mention anything in this letter (or in his gospel account) about the unsaved having eternal life, or of being punished forever. Because to be able to be punished forever would mean that they too (the unsaved) would have to have eternal life.
This is not something I hold to because I just want to. And the argument that eliminating the teaching of everlasting punishment we will lesson the motivation of people to stay moral is false. Believers want to obey God out of gratitude for His great love towards us, not because of hell, because we've already seen that believers are given eternal life that they can never lose. And unbelievers have heard the teaching of everlasting punishment in hell for two thousand years and that never stopped them from sinning.
God bless.
Tom
The last few posts are ones that I've gleaned form this thread so that others won't have to go searching through all of the unrelated things that most threads seem to wander off into.
Let's just go through 1st John for a bit:
1st John 2:17 "And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever."
Does this verse say the wicked abide forever? No.
1st John 2:25 "And this is the promisse that He made to us---eternal life."
This verse is speaking of believers given the promise of eternal life. If the condemned go on forever in torment, they too would have eternal life. But the Bible never says that. It always speaks of eternal life as a gift from God to the saved.
1st John 3:13-15 "Do not be surprised, brothers, that the world hates you. We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death. Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."
If no murderer has eternal life abiding in him, how can he go on forever being punished??? That would be eternal life too.
1st John 5:11-13 "Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life."
Again, the clear contrast between having eternal life and not having eternal life. John doesn't mention anything in this letter (or in his gospel account) about the unsaved having eternal life, or of being punished forever. Because to be able to be punished forever would mean that they too (the unsaved) would have to have eternal life.
This is not something I hold to because I just want to. And the argument that eliminating the teaching of everlasting punishment we will lesson the motivation of people to stay moral is false. Believers want to obey God out of gratitude for His great love towards us, not because of hell, because we've already seen that believers are given eternal life that they can never lose. And unbelievers have heard the teaching of everlasting punishment in hell for two thousand years and that never stopped them from sinning.
God bless.
Tom
The last few posts are ones that I've gleaned form this thread so that others won't have to go searching through all of the unrelated things that most threads seem to wander off into.
T
I'm glad to hear that you are giving it serious thought. Just go through all of the relevent verses slowly, and pray for wisdom about it. I know it is not something that I saw right away. In fact, I related a story in this thread about the first time I heard the famous, John R.W. Stott, say that he was agnostic about the eternal torment of the unsaved. I was so outraged that this man, who was so faithful for so many years, "turned against" God. I threw away all of his books. And all because he said he was unsure!!!! I am much older now and see the immature kneejerk reaction I had. That's why I can understand the people who are cautious about this subject. I was there myself.
I have always told people to check everything in the Bible on this subject, and if they still see it as teaching unending punishment, then stick to it. We must not reject anything because of feelings or the teachings of others. We must square it with the Bible.
God bless.
Tom
I have always told people to check everything in the Bible on this subject, and if they still see it as teaching unending punishment, then stick to it. We must not reject anything because of feelings or the teachings of others. We must square it with the Bible.
God bless.
Tom
L
Hell in the New Testament
Strong’s Concordance G86
hade[FONT="]̄[/FONT]s
hah'-dace
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492; properly unseen, that is, “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, hell.
Grave
1) 1 Corinthians 15:55
Hell
1) Matthew 11:23
2) Matthew 16:18
3) Luke 10:15
4) Luke 16:23
5) Acts 2:27, 31
6) Revelation 1:18
7) Revelation 6:8
8) Revelation 20:13, 14
Strong’s Concordance G1067
geenna
gheh'-en-nah
Of Hebrew origin ([H1516] and [H2011]); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: - hell.
Hell
1) Matthew 5:22, 29-30/ 10:28/ 18:9/ 23:15, 33
2) Mark 9:43, 45, 47
3) Luke 12:5
4) James 3:6
Valley of Hinnom
1) 2 Kings 23:10
2) 2 Chronicles 28:3/ 33:6
3) Jeremiah 7:31/ 19:2/ 32:35
The valley of Hinnom was outside the city where they built high places and sacrificed children in the fire which was an abomination to God. In Revelation 20 the wicked are burned outside the city.
Strong’s Concordance G5020
tartaroo[FONT="]̄[/FONT]
tar-tar-o'-o
From Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment: - cast down to hell.
1) 2 Peter 2:4
Cast to earth
1) Revelation 12:9
2) Isaiah 14:12
Strong’s Concordance G86
hade[FONT="]̄[/FONT]s
hah'-dace
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492; properly unseen, that is, “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, hell.
Grave
1) 1 Corinthians 15:55
Hell
1) Matthew 11:23
2) Matthew 16:18
3) Luke 10:15
4) Luke 16:23
5) Acts 2:27, 31
6) Revelation 1:18
7) Revelation 6:8
8) Revelation 20:13, 14
Strong’s Concordance G1067
geenna
gheh'-en-nah
Of Hebrew origin ([H1516] and [H2011]); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: - hell.
Hell
1) Matthew 5:22, 29-30/ 10:28/ 18:9/ 23:15, 33
2) Mark 9:43, 45, 47
3) Luke 12:5
4) James 3:6
Valley of Hinnom
1) 2 Kings 23:10
2) 2 Chronicles 28:3/ 33:6
3) Jeremiah 7:31/ 19:2/ 32:35
The valley of Hinnom was outside the city where they built high places and sacrificed children in the fire which was an abomination to God. In Revelation 20 the wicked are burned outside the city.
Strong’s Concordance G5020
tartaroo[FONT="]̄[/FONT]
tar-tar-o'-o
From Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment: - cast down to hell.
1) 2 Peter 2:4
Cast to earth
1) Revelation 12:9
2) Isaiah 14:12
E
If we are alive, then there is no need to be born again, or made alive in Christ.
God said we are dead in adam (even though we are conscious) spiritual death is separation from God, if we are not born again we are dead to him, alienated from him. If we do not come to him, we will suffer the second death, which is eternal.
If you can't understand what spiritual death, and how it different from spiritual life, you will never understand.
God said we are dead in adam (even though we are conscious) spiritual death is separation from God, if we are not born again we are dead to him, alienated from him. If we do not come to him, we will suffer the second death, which is eternal.
If you can't understand what spiritual death, and how it different from spiritual life, you will never understand.
T
We have to remember one important thing; the Bible no where says that the human spirit is immortal. I know it is common to hear people speak of your immortal soul, as if just being born makes you immortal, but that is not in the Bible. I used to believe that because I heard it all the time. The Bible makes it clear that only those in Christ have immortality.
Just these few verses in 1 John make it very clear:
1st John 2:17 "And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever."
Does this verse say the wicked abide forever? No.
1st John 2:25 "And this is the promisse that He made to us---eternal life."
This verse is speaking of believers given the promise of eternal life. If the condemned go on forever in torment, they too would have eternal life. But the Bible never says that. It always speaks of eternal life as a gift from God to the saved.
1st John 3:15 " Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."
If no murderer has eternal life abiding in him, how can he go on forever being punished??? That would be eternal life too.
1st John 5:11-13 "Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life."
Again, the clear contrast between having eternal life and not having eternal life. John doesn't mention anything in this letter (or in his gospel account) about the unsaved having eternal life, or of being punished forever. Because to be able to be punished forever would mean that they too (the unsaved) would have to have eternal life.
God bless.
Tom
Just these few verses in 1 John make it very clear:
1st John 2:17 "And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever."
Does this verse say the wicked abide forever? No.
1st John 2:25 "And this is the promisse that He made to us---eternal life."
This verse is speaking of believers given the promise of eternal life. If the condemned go on forever in torment, they too would have eternal life. But the Bible never says that. It always speaks of eternal life as a gift from God to the saved.
1st John 3:15 " Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."
If no murderer has eternal life abiding in him, how can he go on forever being punished??? That would be eternal life too.
1st John 5:11-13 "Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life."
Again, the clear contrast between having eternal life and not having eternal life. John doesn't mention anything in this letter (or in his gospel account) about the unsaved having eternal life, or of being punished forever. Because to be able to be punished forever would mean that they too (the unsaved) would have to have eternal life.
God bless.
Tom
B
G
_____
Tombro, why do you accept commentary by Edward Fudge more than listening to the EVERLASTING , inerrant Word of God?
I know why, my Christ bro, with the 2nd coolest, cutest-looking 'pit' in all the land, no one can show you proof of The soul immortal, of 'perish' meaning rot away in death's suffering grip, not annihlated but a eating fire (consummation) that ever lasts, that 'gnashing of teeth' is not anger in context to hell.even though it is indeed anger for sadduccees emotions tiding on Stephen in Acts 7:54.
I am with more everlasting fire verses than I know what to do with for your feeding. But you choose 'Fudge' over God''s word on this, no?
Because The Word of God is clear, many picturesque paintings of the grueling sorrow of hell, where Matthew 25:30.says there will be 'weeping and gnashing of teeth.' This context is not , as you say, 'anger' nor 'anguish,' this picture is of people separated from God, grinding their teeth, tombro, refers to what?
Hatred
hell will not be a good place at all, horror of horrors and thilose thinking when they die off on Earth thinking they get off easy, just burning a bit before fainting and dying forevermore, think again.
Hell is everlastingvto everlasting, forever eternal, just like life, except it is forever death Daniel does not lie does he, a major prophet of God says, some will awake from post-life body (not soul, rev. 20:4 is clear our souls go to Lord upon earthly death) to 'everlasting life, some to everlasting contempt.' Dan. 12:2
I know you just taking abstance you feel led on, The Lord leads, Gid bless your work when its for Him, Tom. I pray, too, I do not false teach on this, but, tombro, don't let people OFF God''s hook, for God will make examples and liars in their own sin even of those that deaden His great Word . Gid will let those that adulterate His Truth to wickedly go their way unto their everlasting death.
Tombro, The good news is that you are not in danger of destruction of life on earth, no, this is not a salvation issue, however, if is a false teacher issue, and , scripture is clear that teachers will be judged more by God..
So, be sure you are hearing God and not Fudge , don't fudge on this, for it could make someone decide hell is not so bad afterall. Oh, tombro, hell is bad, worse than we can utterly imagine....
IF one things Satan is going to ruin them on Earth , wait until you have no God to assuage you in hell after you die. Hell?
Unduly Unbearable? No, horror-ibly unimaginable.
Homework: The original greek has a word for 'perish,' and it = appolumi
Look it up, brother, tombro, blessings Christ bro
Tombro, why do you accept commentary by Edward Fudge more than listening to the EVERLASTING , inerrant Word of God?
I know why, my Christ bro, with the 2nd coolest, cutest-looking 'pit' in all the land, no one can show you proof of The soul immortal, of 'perish' meaning rot away in death's suffering grip, not annihlated but a eating fire (consummation) that ever lasts, that 'gnashing of teeth' is not anger in context to hell.even though it is indeed anger for sadduccees emotions tiding on Stephen in Acts 7:54.
I am with more everlasting fire verses than I know what to do with for your feeding. But you choose 'Fudge' over God''s word on this, no?
Because The Word of God is clear, many picturesque paintings of the grueling sorrow of hell, where Matthew 25:30.says there will be 'weeping and gnashing of teeth.' This context is not , as you say, 'anger' nor 'anguish,' this picture is of people separated from God, grinding their teeth, tombro, refers to what?
Hatred
hell will not be a good place at all, horror of horrors and thilose thinking when they die off on Earth thinking they get off easy, just burning a bit before fainting and dying forevermore, think again.
Hell is everlastingvto everlasting, forever eternal, just like life, except it is forever death
Daniel does not lie does he, a major prophet of God says, some will awake from post-life body (not soul, rev. 20:4 is clear our souls go to Lord upon earthly death) to 'everlasting life, some to everlasting contempt.' Dan. 12:2I know you just taking abstance you feel led on, The Lord leads, Gid bless your work when its for Him, Tom. I pray, too, I do not false teach on this, but, tombro, don't let people OFF God''s hook, for God will make examples and liars in their own sin even of those that deaden His great Word . Gid will let those that adulterate His Truth to wickedly go their way unto their everlasting death.
Tombro, The good news is that you are not in danger of destruction of life on earth, no, this is not a salvation issue, however, if is a false teacher issue, and , scripture is clear that teachers will be judged more by God..
So, be sure you are hearing God and not Fudge , don't fudge on this, for it could make someone decide hell is not so bad afterall. Oh, tombro, hell is bad, worse than we can utterly imagine....
IF one things Satan is going to ruin them on Earth , wait until you have no God to assuage you in hell after you die. Hell?
Unduly Unbearable? No, horror-ibly unimaginable.
Homework: The original greek has a word for 'perish,' and it = appolumi
Look it up, brother, tombro, blessings Christ bro
T
_____
Tombro, why do you accept commentary by Edward Fudge more than listening to the EVERLASTING , inerrant Word of God?
I know why, my Christ bro, with the 2nd coolest, cutest-looking 'pit' in all the land, no one can show you proof of The soul immortal, of 'perish' meaning rot away in death's suffering grip, not annihlated but a eating fire (consummation) that ever lasts, that 'gnashing of teeth' is not anger in context to hell.even though it is indeed anger for sadduccees emotions tiding on Stephen in Acts 7:54.
I am with more everlasting fire verses than I know what to do with for your feeding. But you choose 'Fudge' over God''s word on this, no?
Because The Word of God is clear, many picturesque paintings of the grueling sorrow of hell, where Matthew 25:30.says there will be 'weeping and gnashing of teeth.' This context is not , as you say, 'anger' nor 'anguish,' this picture is of people separated from God, grinding their teeth, tombro, refers to what?
Hatred
hell will not be a good place at all, horror of horrors and thilose thinking when they die off on Earth thinking they get off easy, just burning a bit before fainting and dying forevermore, think again.
Hell is everlastingvto everlasting, forever eternal, just like life, except it is forever death Daniel does not lie does he, a major prophet of God says, some will awake from post-life body (not soul, rev. 20:4 is clear our souls go to Lord upon earthly death) to 'everlasting life, some to everlasting contempt.' Dan. 12:2
I know you just taking abstance you feel led on, The Lord leads, Gid bless your work when its for Him, Tom. I pray, too, I do not false teach on this, but, tombro, don't let people OFF God''s hook, for God will make examples and liars in their own sin even of those that deaden His great Word . Gid will let those that adulterate His Truth to wickedly go their way unto their everlasting death.
Tombro, The good news is that you are not in danger of destruction of life on earth, no, this is not a salvation issue, however, if is a false teacher issue, and , scripture is clear that teachers will be judged more by God..
So, be sure you are hearing God and not Fudge , don't fudge on this, for it could make someone decide hell is not so bad afterall. Oh, tombro, hell is bad, worse than we can utterly imagine....
IF one things Satan is going to ruin them on Earth , wait until you have no God to assuage you in hell after you die. Hell?
Unduly Unbearable? No, horror-ibly unimaginable.
Homework: The original greek has a word for 'perish,' and it = appolumi
Look it up, brother, tombro, blessings Christ bro
Tombro, why do you accept commentary by Edward Fudge more than listening to the EVERLASTING , inerrant Word of God?
I know why, my Christ bro, with the 2nd coolest, cutest-looking 'pit' in all the land, no one can show you proof of The soul immortal, of 'perish' meaning rot away in death's suffering grip, not annihlated but a eating fire (consummation) that ever lasts, that 'gnashing of teeth' is not anger in context to hell.even though it is indeed anger for sadduccees emotions tiding on Stephen in Acts 7:54.
I am with more everlasting fire verses than I know what to do with for your feeding. But you choose 'Fudge' over God''s word on this, no?
Because The Word of God is clear, many picturesque paintings of the grueling sorrow of hell, where Matthew 25:30.says there will be 'weeping and gnashing of teeth.' This context is not , as you say, 'anger' nor 'anguish,' this picture is of people separated from God, grinding their teeth, tombro, refers to what?
Hatred
hell will not be a good place at all, horror of horrors and thilose thinking when they die off on Earth thinking they get off easy, just burning a bit before fainting and dying forevermore, think again.
Hell is everlastingvto everlasting, forever eternal, just like life, except it is forever death
Daniel does not lie does he, a major prophet of God says, some will awake from post-life body (not soul, rev. 20:4 is clear our souls go to Lord upon earthly death) to 'everlasting life, some to everlasting contempt.' Dan. 12:2I know you just taking abstance you feel led on, The Lord leads, Gid bless your work when its for Him, Tom. I pray, too, I do not false teach on this, but, tombro, don't let people OFF God''s hook, for God will make examples and liars in their own sin even of those that deaden His great Word . Gid will let those that adulterate His Truth to wickedly go their way unto their everlasting death.
Tombro, The good news is that you are not in danger of destruction of life on earth, no, this is not a salvation issue, however, if is a false teacher issue, and , scripture is clear that teachers will be judged more by God..
So, be sure you are hearing God and not Fudge , don't fudge on this, for it could make someone decide hell is not so bad afterall. Oh, tombro, hell is bad, worse than we can utterly imagine....
IF one things Satan is going to ruin them on Earth , wait until you have no God to assuage you in hell after you die. Hell?
Unduly Unbearable? No, horror-ibly unimaginable.
Homework: The original greek has a word for 'perish,' and it = appolumi
Look it up, brother, tombro, blessings Christ bro
Don't worry, I have had thoughts about this long before I read Mr. Fudge's book. All through this thread I have never quoted anything that Fudge wrote, I have only used scripture. Take, for example, the study I did on the term "gnashing of teeth". All through the Bible the references to gnashing of teeth mean anger and not pain or sorrow. Here is a copy of the post:
The phrase gnashing of teeth is not referring to someone in pain or anguish, but someone who is filled wiith anger. At the end of the world when the lost receive their sentence of death and know they will not inherit the new heavens and earth, some will weep from sorrow and some will be angry at God.
Again, if we take a concordance and go through all of the Bible where the word gnash is found, it always speaks of rage and anger.
Here are all the references:
Job 16:9 "He has torn me in his wrath and hated me; he has gnashed his teeth at me; my adversary sharpens his eyes against me."
Psalm 35:16 "like profane mockers at a feast, they gnash at me with thier teeth."
Psalm 37:12 "The wicked plots against the righteous and gnashes his teeth at him."
Psalm 112:10 "The wicked man sees it and is angry; he gnashes his teeth and melts away; the desire of the wicked will perish!" Please read this whole Psalm, it is edifying to say the least.
Lamentations 2:16 "All your enimies rail against you; they hiss, they gnash their teeth, they cry: We have swallowed her! Ah, this is the day we longed for; now we have it; we see it!"
That is all of the references to gnashing with teeth in the old testament.
In Acts 7:54 we read "Now when they heard this, they were cut to the quick, and they began gnashing their teeth at him." NASB
Seeing all of these references, we can now read the other verses of the new testament that speak of gnashing of teeth more clearly. I too used to think it meant anguish and sorrow, but it doesn't at all.
Here are the other new testament references:
Mark 9:18
Matthew 8:12, 13:42,50, 22:13, 24:51, 25:30
Luke 13:28
Please check all of this carefully.
God bless, my friend!!!!
Tom
G
Gnashing of teeth for matthew 25:30=There is going to be hatred and crying, eternally, emotionalism unsated, as those realize their really WAS,a,God and they chose not to believe.
This gnashing , of course, has anger and anguish laced in its definement, but 'it' means far worse than JUST a. & a.
Daniel 12:2 says some who rise from death of body 'will go to everlasting life while some(unbelievers) will everlasting contempt.'
Contempt = kənˈtem(p)t/Noun: 1. The feeling that a person or a thing is beneath consideration, worthless, or deserving scorn. 2. Disregard for something that should be taken into account.
Just some food for thought.
Also, God tosses (casts) sinners into the 'outer darkness,' and, TWICE, in Matthew reference to being 'cast into the 'furnace of fire.' And, tombro, nary a mention that they burn up. And, 'cast into the outer darkness,' again, there is no way to context this as people being suffocated from the darkness. They live in this darkness , it is their everlasting contempt
God bless you, too, Christ tombro, do something like cook for mom Sunday, and, go rastle that pothound of yours for me won't ya
This gnashing , of course, has anger and anguish laced in its definement, but 'it' means far worse than JUST a. & a.
Daniel 12:2 says some who rise from death of body 'will go to everlasting life while some(unbelievers) will everlasting contempt.'
Contempt = kənˈtem(p)t/Noun: 1. The feeling that a person or a thing is beneath consideration, worthless, or deserving scorn. 2. Disregard for something that should be taken into account.
Just some food for thought.
Also, God tosses (casts) sinners into the 'outer darkness,' and, TWICE, in Matthew reference to being 'cast into the 'furnace of fire.' And, tombro, nary a mention that they burn up. And, 'cast into the outer darkness,' again, there is no way to context this as people being suffocated from the darkness. They live in this darkness , it is their everlasting contempt
God bless you, too, Christ tombro, do something like cook for mom Sunday, and, go rastle that pothound of yours for me won't ya
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