Modern State of Israel: Is it biblical?

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Mar 14, 2011
64,166
10,570
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#61
KJV1611 is right on that point.

and Matthew 24 was fulfilled as were all prophecies to the Jews.
The bible never indicates that a great tribulation would last 7 years.
The great tribulation of the Jews lasted more like 7 months. You can read all about it in Josphus who was an eye witness.
Tertullian wrote a treatise to the Jews on why they HAD TO GO THROUGH that "great trib".
Matt 24 is fulfilled?



WW1 and WW2 was far greater tribulation for the world than AD 70 even promised to be. So it could not fulfill matt 24,

And When did jesus return. Because if he did not return, all flesh on earth would die? Did I miss it?
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
29,081
7,488
113
64
Florida
#62
I have bee a member since Mar 13, 2014 and don't recall ever reading a single post of yours. Of course, the current state of Israel is biblical, as it always has been. In Revelation it says that there still the battle of Armageddon to be fought with an army of 200 million marching towards Israel. There will be blood up to the horses bridle from the dead that are slain. As for backing it with scripture you can do this on your own by studying the prophecies of the OT as related to the end-time events as stated in the book of Revelation. Hopefully, you will stick around awhile and actually write a few posts rather than remaining a ghost in the background. Welcome to CC.
 

FlyingDove

Senior Member
Dec 27, 2017
669
205
43
#63
Hey guys! I want an honest, serious, prayerful conversation on the issue of the modern state of Israel. What is your take on its existence? Is it biblical, is it not? Explain your reason, back it up with Scripture. This is not necessarily political question, and it is not so much of whether it is a settlement of land thief or that the government is maybe questionable in their control of the land. You can mention that if you want, but I am looking for a discussion on the statehood itself. Many say that this is the fulfillment of some prophecy, that God would bring the Jews back to the land of Canaan as their possession. Others see this as a fraud and a fake, that God had already finished his purpose with Israel a long time ago and that they no longer exist as a nation.

A partial list of Gods land covenant w/Israel

Jerusalem is a unique city, & is the "Capital of Israel" (Ps 87:1-2, Ps 132:13-14

God established that the land of Israel belongs to Him (Lev 25:23, Deut 11:12

God has placed His name in Jerusalem (II Chronicles 6:6, I Kings 9:3

God established His covenant with Abraham & promises to bless those who bless Israel: (Gen 12:2-3, 13:14, 15:17-18

God gives the exact boundaries of the promised land in Num 34:1-15 (also: Deut 1:8, Ex 2:24, Ex 6:4, 8 & Ps 105:8-11

(PAY SPECIAL ATTENTION TO: Num 34:1-15)
(George Bush tried to give away Israel's land. Barack Obama wanted to give away Israel's land. It's not their's to give or negotiate away. God gave it to Israel in aa "Everlasting Covenant"

God states that the covenant of the Land is based on "His" eternal character, "Not" on Israel's own righteousness. He makes clear that even when they forsake His will, He will "NEVER" forget His covenant (Lev:26:42-45, Jer 31:35-37, Ps 89:30-37

God will restore Israel (After 2000 yrs DONE 1948) for the sake of His holy name: (Eze. 37:17-23, 39:25-29, Jer 33:23-26)

God says He will gather the exiles & bring them home to Israel (Began in 1948 & continues today) (Isa 11:1-12 & many other scriptures)

The national, physical restoration of Israel In the last days (THATS US NOW) is a necessary and prophesied step towards restoration and ultimate redemption for the entire world:
(Ezek 36:24-29, 37:11-14, Jer 3:1:8-10, 31:3134, Amos 9:14-15)

All The Above Are True because GOD Is NOT a man that He should lie. Num 23:19

In Nov, 9 2012 The UN recognize Palestine (a bunch of Jordanian squatter's in 1948) as a state. & proclaimed East Jerusalem to belong to them. Like Bush & Obama the UN can't give away God's gift to Israel either

Behold, I (God) will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling & a burdensome stone for all people. (Zec 12:2

Zec 12:3 says that those nations that “burden themselves” with this City (those that “lift it up”; those that take sides with its people) “shall be cut in pieces” (or, by doing so “they shall grievously hurt themselves”

Anyone that takes part in giving away Israelie land is begging for a world of Hurt!

NOTE: to the Donald: DON'T EVER TRY TO DO IT!

In Genesis, Abraham buys a piece of the promise land for 400 pieces of silver.

It is also recorded that Jacob bought another piece of the promise land.

So 1st the true owner GOD gives it to the Israelites. Then also recorded Abraham & Jacob buy parts.

MOST IMPORTANT FACT HERE:
King David "bought" the threshing floor (37 acre Temple Mt area) from Araunah the Jebusite. And built an altar to the Lord so that a “plague may be held back from the people” (2 Sam 24:18, 21 & 1 Chron 21
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,108
314
83
#64
I think God knows..

Is that not all that matters? Why do I need to know?

And all records destroyed? I am sure the families where were discpersed kept records. Even if only oral records..

Either way, if God says they will be returned, I believe him.
that is no answer considering what you stated in that post
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
11,440
5,983
113
73
Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
#65
Well i still disagree..

Judah is the southern kingdom. The ones there now are all 12 tribes.
I still stand by this that they are Jews, so they say anyway. Jews are Judah, Simeon and some Benjamin and Levi. When God sets it up, those people claiming to be Israel may or may not have a part in it. Speculation has it that many are not bloodline Jews anyway. Time will tell.

You need to look up the history of the 10 Northern tribes. They were carried away and lost their identity while in servitude to the Assyrians. Then look up the prophecy of all 12 tribes in Gen. 49 with clues to their identity today. You can't add the lost tribes back in. Only God can do that. :cool:
 
Mar 14, 2011
64,166
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#66
that is no answer considering what you stated in that post
I see what your saying, I meant the ones who will be thre when they are restored is all 12 tribes

Israel is not restored yet..They must repent BEFORE they are restored.
 
Mar 14, 2011
64,166
10,570
113
#67
I still stand by this that they are Jews, so they say anyway. Jews are Judah, Simeon and some Benjamin and Levi. When God sets it up, those people claiming to be Israel may or may not have a part in it. Speculation has it that many are not bloodline Jews anyway. Time will tell.

You need to look up the history of the 10 Northern tribes. They were carried away and lost their identity while in servitude to the Assyrians. Then look up the prophecy of all 12 tribes in Gen. 49 with clues to their identity today. You can't add the lost tribes back in. Only God can do that. :cool:
History shows when the northern territory was destroyed by Assyria, Members of all 12 tribes were in Jerusalem. Even after the babylonioan/media persia captivity when they were restored. all 12 tribes were present and had a presence. But only th eland of the southern kingdom was fiven back (actually thats not true, Only the city was given back, under the authority of the medes and persians, the greeks and the romans) the nation remained slaves until AD 70 when the final form of discipline of lev 26 was enacted.
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,108
314
83
#68
WW1 and WW2 was far greater tribulation for the world than AD 70 even promised to be. So it could not fulfill matt 24,

And When did jesus return. Because if he did not return, all flesh on earth would die? Did I miss it?[/QUOTE]

If you are a premillie then we have nothing to share.
To be plain I am calvinist, supralapsarian, amillenist, and all else that is biblical.

I believe the man who is not willing to submit to the electing love and sovereign grace of God, has great reason to question whether he is a Christian at all, for the spirit that kicks against that is the spirit of the devil, and the spirit of the unhumbled, unrenewed heart.
Charles Spurgeon
 
Mar 14, 2011
64,166
10,570
113
#69
A partial list of Gods land covenant w/Israel

Jerusalem is a unique city, & is the "Capital of Israel" (Ps 87:1-2, Ps 132:13-14

God established that the land of Israel belongs to Him (Lev 25:23, Deut 11:12

God has placed His name in Jerusalem (II Chronicles 6:6, I Kings 9:3

God established His covenant with Abraham & promises to bless those who bless Israel: (Gen 12:2-3, 13:14, 15:17-18

God gives the exact boundaries of the promised land in Num 34:1-15 (also: Deut 1:8, Ex 2:24, Ex 6:4, 8 & Ps 105:8-11

(PAY SPECIAL ATTENTION TO: Num 34:1-15)
(George Bush tried to give away Israel's land. Barack Obama wanted to give away Israel's land. It's not their's to give or negotiate away. God gave it to Israel in aa "Everlasting Covenant"

God states that the covenant of the Land is based on "His" eternal character, "Not" on Israel's own righteousness. He makes clear that even when they forsake His will, He will "NEVER" forget His covenant (Lev:26:42-45, Jer 31:35-37, Ps 89:30-37

God will restore Israel (After 2000 yrs DONE 1948) for the sake of His holy name: (Eze. 37:17-23, 39:25-29, Jer 33:23-26)

God says He will gather the exiles & bring them home to Israel (Began in 1948 & continues today) (Isa 11:1-12 & many other scriptures)

The national, physical restoration of Israel In the last days (THATS US NOW) is a necessary and prophesied step towards restoration and ultimate redemption for the entire world:
(Ezek 36:24-29, 37:11-14, Jer 3:1:8-10, 31:3134, Amos 9:14-15)

All The Above Are True because GOD Is NOT a man that He should lie. Num 23:19

In Nov, 9 2012 The UN recognize Palestine (a bunch of Jordanian squatter's in 1948) as a state. & proclaimed East Jerusalem to belong to them. Like Bush & Obama the UN can't give away God's gift to Israel either

Behold, I (God) will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling & a burdensome stone for all people. (Zec 12:2

Zec 12:3 says that those nations that “burden themselves” with this City (those that “lift it up”; those that take sides with its people) “shall be cut in pieces” (or, by doing so “they shall grievously hurt themselves”

Anyone that takes part in giving away Israelie land is begging for a world of Hurt!

NOTE: to the Donald: DON'T EVER TRY TO DO IT!

In Genesis, Abraham buys a piece of the promise land for 400 pieces of silver.

It is also recorded that Jacob bought another piece of the promise land.

So 1st the true owner GOD gives it to the Israelites. Then also recorded Abraham & Jacob buy parts.

MOST IMPORTANT FACT HERE:
King David "bought" the threshing floor (37 acre Temple Mt area) from Araunah the Jebusite. And built an altar to the Lord so that a “plague may be held back from the people” (2 Sam 24:18, 21 & 1 Chron 21
Israel is not restored yet. It is still in sin, Their temple is still in desolation, be careful what you say,,
 
Mar 14, 2011
64,166
10,570
113
#70
WW1 and WW2 was far greater tribulation for the world than AD 70 even promised to be. So it could not fulfill matt 24,

And When did jesus return. Because if he did not return, all flesh on earth would die? Did I miss it?

If you are a premillie then we have nothing to share.
To be plain I am calvinist, supralapsarian, amillenist, and all else that is biblical.
So your not even willing to discuss?

I made a few statments , can you not prove me wrong? Your just going to sit there and basically push me away as no one?

If you think people can just post their beliefs and no one is allowed or able to discuss those beliefs, and you are free from having to discuss this with them, well is that not an issue? Is this a bible discussion forum, or lets push our beliefs on everyone forum
I know what you are. Your not the first person who has come in, your not gonna be the last.. But we enjoy our conversations with you. Knowing maybe you can teach us somethign we have not known of vice versa)


I believe the man who is not willing to submit to the electing love and sovereign grace of God, has great reason to question whether he is a Christian at all, for the spirit that kicks against that is the spirit of the devil, and the spirit of the unhumbled, unrenewed heart.
Charles Spurgeon
So if I am a pre mill. Who believes god keeps his promises. And not a calvanist. I am not willing to submit to Gods will, and people shoudl question if I am even a christian?

Thanks, I believe (unless I misunderstood you) you just showed your hand.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
7,757
3,904
113
#71
There's no prophecy in the bible about Israel becoming a nation again.
Really?

Isaiah 11:
11 It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord shall set His hand again the SECOND time
To recover the remnant of His people who are left,
From Assyria and Egypt,
From Pathros and Cush,
From Elam and Shinar,
From Hamath and the [d]islands of the sea.

First regathering was after the Babylonian captivity.

The 2nd started on May 14, 1948.

Very inconvenient for the replacement Theologians that the Jews are in the Land under the name ISRAEL.
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
11,440
5,983
113
73
Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
#72
History shows when the northern territory was destroyed by Assyria, Members of all 12 tribes were in Jerusalem. Even after the babylonioan/media persia captivity when they were restored. all 12 tribes were present and had a presence. But only th eland of the southern kingdom was fiven back (actually thats not true, Only the city was given back, under the authority of the medes and persians, the greeks and the romans) the nation remained slaves until AD 70 when the final form of discipline of lev 26 was enacted.
Could you quote this history that blatantly contradicts other accounts. You post your and I will post mine. :cool:
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,108
314
83
#73
So your not even willing to discuss?

I made a few statments , can you not prove me wrong? Your just going to sit there and basically push me away as no one?

If you think people can just post their beliefs and no one is allowed or able to discuss those beliefs, and you are free from having to discuss this with them, well is that not an issue? Is this a bible discussion forum, or lets push our beliefs on everyone forum
I know what you are. Your not the first person who has come in, your not gonna be the last.. But we enjoy our conversations with you. Knowing maybe you can teach us somethign we have not known of vice versa)




So if I am a pre mill. Who believes god keeps his promises. And not a calvanist. I am not willing to submit to Gods will, and people shoudl question if I am even a christian?

Thanks, I believe (unless I misunderstood you) you just showed your hand.
Of course you misunderstood, that is your forte'. You and I come at this from two different angles and that will only lead to a crash when we get to the intersection.
I am not going to persuade you, that is the Holy Spirit's job.
But we also cannot connect on much of anything. I am NOT thinking you are Armiinian at all. Probably more Amyraldian so you got some things right. LOL

So I am an amil who believes God kept His promises.
We wait for His coming......that is the last promise. <Maranatha>
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,108
314
83
#74
Really?

Isaiah 11:
11 It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord shall set His hand again the SECOND time
To recover the remnant of His people who are left,
From Assyria and Egypt,
From Pathros and Cush,
From Elam and Shinar,
From Hamath and the [d]islands of the sea.

First regathering was after the Babylonian captivity.

The 2nd started on May 14, 1948.

Very inconvenient for the replacement Theologians that the Jews are in the Land under the name ISRAEL.
OH good grief. Could that possibly be the return from the BAbylong captivity???????
HISTORY, people, HISTORY!
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
4,300
1,675
113
#75
Its jerusalem thats especially contested bit of land as its the apple of Gods eye. New Jerusalem is mentioned in Revelation. JUdah was the tribe that was given the lot where Jerusalem the capital is. JEsus was from the tribe of Judah and Judah was the tribe from which Kings descended. But Jesus had claims to all of Israel too. As those who believe KNOW him to be King of Israel. Its the whole israel vs judah thing that God is still sorting out. And until the jews believe that Jesus is their King too, things wont change.
This is why Paul was giving the gospel to gentiles because Judah was the tribe that still resisted...Jesus OWN tribe in the flesh.

We see when israel disobeyed God in the OT they were cursed and nearly lost their land, and they had twice been exiled? But see Gods covenant cannot be annulled it was renewed in Jesus. Since Jesus is the only begotten son and firstborn, He has the firstborn's privelige to inherit all the land that God promised to his fathers. Well what about Israel, was he not firstborn. When Israel was jacob, remember his twin brother was .esau. Esau was actually the physically firstborn but he gave away his blessing. ITs a loooong story which is why we read the OT!! Jacob (now named Israel) had twelve sons which make up the patriarchs of the nation of Israel. One of these sons was Judah. One of the prophecies or blessings given to Judah was that kings shall come from that line. King david, solomon, etc. And the very last King, which people still contest today, was Jesus. The reason he had twelve disciples (apostles) as they each represented the twelve tribes of israel. We do know that Judas was the one that betrayed him.

I dont want to go on otherwise I will just end up repeating the whole bible and you all very smart on here you can read for yourselves!


Any way as we see, Jesus regards us as brothers and sisters -co-heirs for the meek shall inherit the earth. When Jesus returns rest assured that we believers can go visit Him in the new Jerusalem.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
7,757
3,904
113
#76
There's no prophecy in the bible about Israel becoming a nation again.
Really?

Isaiah 11:
11 It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord shall set His hand again the SECOND time
To recover the remnant of His people who are left,
From Assyria and Egypt,
From Pathros and Cush,
From Elam and Shinar,
From Hamath and the [d]islands of the sea.

First regathering was after the Babylonian captivity.

The 2nd started on May 14, 1948.

Very inconvenient for the replacement Theologians that the Jews are in the Land under the name ISRAEL.
OH good grief. Could that possibly be the return from the BAbylong captivity???????
HISTORY, people, HISTORY!
Well you just showed your inability to read and comprehend.

Try reading it again.

God says there will be TWO regatherings. The first is indeed Babylon.
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,108
314
83
#77
Aside from all the scripture throwing........."take that verse!"........."no, Take THAT one".........and so it goes.
What is the purpose of a new Israel? Or a new temple? I'd like to see some logical answers if there are any.
And don't tell me God isn't logical..........just look at the order of His creation.
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,108
314
83
#78
WW1 and WW2 was far greater tribulation for the world than AD 70 even promised to be. So it could not fulfill matt 24,

And When did jesus return. Because if he did not return, all flesh on earth would die? Did I miss it?
If you are a premillie then we have nothing to share.
To be plain I am calvinist, supralapsarian, amillenist, and all else that is biblical.

I believe the man who is not willing to submit to the electing love and sovereign grace of God, has great reason to question whether he is a Christian at all, for the spirit that kicks against that is the spirit of the devil, and the spirit of the unhumbled, unrenewed heart.
Charles Spurgeon[/QUOTE]

PennEd gave me a great big RED X........whhhhhhhhhhooooa
Guess Ed does not like Calvinists.
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,108
314
83
#79
Really?

Isaiah 11:
11 It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord shall set His hand again the SECOND time
To recover the remnant of His people who are left,
From Assyria and Egypt,
From Pathros and Cush,
From Elam and Shinar,
From Hamath and the [d]islands of the sea.

First regathering was after the Babylonian captivity.

The 2nd started on May 14, 1948.

Very inconvenient for the replacement Theologians that the Jews are in the Land under the name ISRAEL.

Well you just showed your inability to read and comprehend.

Try reading it again.

God says there will be TWO regatherings. The first is indeed Babylon.
Whatever, Ed, whatever.
 
Mar 14, 2011
64,166
10,570
113
#80
Could you quote this history that blatantly contradicts other accounts. You post your and I will post mine. :cool:
Ezra 6:
16 And the sons of Israel, the priests, the Levites and the rest of the [r]exiles, celebrated the dedication of this house of God with joy. 17 They offered for the dedication of this temple of God 100 bulls, 200 rams, 400 lambs, and as a sin offering for all Israel 12 male goats, corresponding to the number of the tribes of Israel. 18 Then they appointed the priests to their divisions and the Levites in their orders for the service of God [s]in Jerusalem, as it is written in the book of Moses.

The Passover Observed
19 The exiles observed the Passover on the fourteenth of the first month. 20 For the priests and the Levites had purified themselves together; all of them were pure. Then they slaughtered the Passover lamb for all the exiles, both for their brothers the priests and for themselves. 21 The sons of Israel who returned from exile and all those who had separated themselves from the impurity of the nations of the land to join them, to seek the Lord God of Israel, ate the Passover. 22 And they observed the Feast of Unleavened Bread seven days with joy, for the Lord had caused them to rejoice, and had turned the heart of the king of Assyria toward them to [t]encourage them in the work of the house of God, the God of Israel.

Neh 9 : The descendants of Israel separated themselves from all foreigners, and stood and confessed their sins and the iniquities of their fathers


as for israels return, it was prophesied


Isaiah 11:16
And there will be a highway from Assyria For the remnant of His people who will be left, Just as there was for Israel In the day that they came up out of the land of Egypt.