More on fundamentalism

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TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#21
Oh, that was just New Testament. I didn't touch the OT:

And they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, And never again will they learn war.

Learn to do good; Seek justice, Reprove the ruthless, Defend the orphan, Plead for the widow.

I can do more if you need
 
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Closemyeyes2cU

Guest
#22
Oh, that was just New Testament. I didn't touch the OT:

And they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, And never again will they learn war.

Learn to do good; Seek justice, Reprove the ruthless, Defend the orphan, Plead for the widow.

I can do more if you need
That is prophecy. We live in a world with good and evil. The two cant exist together in peace.
 

JimJimmers

Senior Member
Apr 26, 2012
2,588
72
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#23
Happy to oblige:

"When I was hungry, you fed me; when I was thirsty, you gave me something to drink; when I was a stranger, you invited me in."

"Forgive your brother, not 7 times, but 7 times 70 times."

Other examples include the parable of the workers in the field, the lost sheep, the Good Samaritan,

You want more?
The funny thing is, the parable of the workers in the field describes free-market capitalism. Idle workers agree on a price, and get paid for labor. I think it would be a much different story nowadays. (Not due to 'liberalism' as much as government interference in general.)

"A man went out to hire laborers in his vineyard. He couldn't afford to pay the inflated minimum wage price of labor with the government regulated price of grapes, after all the taxes. So the laborers went on public assistance, and the man hired undocumented workers from Syria. The end."
 
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TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#24
Conservatives dont do these things?
A lot of conservatives I know do these things. They are liberal ideas.

Conservative people can do liberal things, and liberal people can do conservative things.

For example, I am married to a man -- someone of the opposite gender. Heterosexual marriage is a conservative idea that can be supported by Scripture. The fact that I am married to a man doesn't mean I'm a conservative.

In the same way, you may very well be generous to the poor and needy. This is a liberal idea that is supported by Scripture. The fact that you are generous doesn't mean you are a liberal, any more than the fact that I am heterosexual means I am a conservative. I am well aware that conservative people do many good things.

I am not the one here who is saying that everything that is liberal is evil. If that is your assumption, perhaps you need to rethink your prejudices.

We just dont believe in feeding lazy people
Well, I'm not sure who you're including in the "we."

The Republican party most certainly does believe in feeding lazy people. It supports cutting taxes on unearned income, and raising it on earned income. Unearned income -- that would be money you get just for sitting on your bum. I think that qualifies as "laziness."

Now, I am well aware that there are a lot of conservative people out there who disagree with the Republican Party. I'm married to one of them, and he's as disgusted with the Republicans as he is with the Democrats. (I should mention that I'm as disgusted with the Democrats as I am with the Republicans.)

However, most conservatives I have met are pretty close in lock-step with the Republican party, and, whether they realize it or not, they actually do support policies that reward laziness and punish hard work. I don't know if you, personally, fall into this category, and it really doesn't matter to me if you do or don't. I'm just pointing out that you can't really say "we support" or "we believe," if you don't define what you mean by "we."

For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
In other words, capital gains should be taxed at 100%. Gosh, I think that's a little strict, but I'd be willing to go that direction. Would you?
 
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TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#25
The funny thing is, the parable of the workers in the field describes free-market capitalism. Idle workers agree on a price, and get paid for labor. I think it would be a much different story nowadays. (Not due to 'liberalism' as much as government interference in general.)

"A man went out to hire laborers in his vineyard. He couldn't afford to pay the inflated minimum wage price of labor with the government regulated price of grapes, after all the taxes. So the laborers went on public assistance, and the man hired undocumented workers from Syria. The end."
That is funny. And I'm glad that you recognize that "government interference" is neither "liberal" nor "conservative." It can be both, and need not be either. If that makes sense.
 
C

Crossfire

Guest
#26
This is a good point.

It should be noted, however, that it was not just the Pharisees and the Sadducees that held to the oral traditions. All Jews accepted the Talmudic teachings, including Jesus. The arguments Jesus had against the P & S was not that they were interpreting Scripture allegorically, but that they were forgetting the allegorical meanings that were there to start with. "Love God, love your neighbor." The Two Great Commandments are there in the Old Testament, if you understand it allegorically. (In fact, it's harder to see them if you're too caught up in the literal interpretation.)
Not necessarily. Yes, both the Pharisee and the Sadducee were respected and revered by the majority of Jews after the Babylonian exile however, not all Jews embraced their liberal interpretations of scripture. There is a sect of Jews, now referred to as Karaites, that have been around since before Christ who reject the Talmud.

In fact, since the discovery of the book of Matthew written in Hebrew, it's obvious that Jesus himself publically rejected the traditions and teachings of the Pharisees and Sadducees which we know know to be the Talmud. When the Pharisees and Sadducees would question Jesus' authority, Jesus would perform a supernatural miracle thus validating His divine authority which is why they wanted Jesus crucified immediately.
 

JimJimmers

Senior Member
Apr 26, 2012
2,588
72
48
#27
That is funny. And I'm glad that you recognize that "government interference" is neither "liberal" nor "conservative." It can be both, and need not be either. If that makes sense.

Absolutely. Many of our laws are written at least in part by lobbyists, who are not famous for having our best interests at heart. (I suppose I ought to verify that. I heard it from a reliable source, but 'prove all things'. I know that laws are pushed by lobbyists for the same reason, which is basically the same thing as having written them, if it's what they would have written anyway.)
 
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Closemyeyes2cU

Guest
#28
I am not the one here who is saying that everything that is liberal is evil.
Liberal has taking on a whole new meaning today than what it used to mean.

Liberal in the Bible = Generous

Liberal today = No such thing as right or wrong, just do what feels good and let others do the same.
 
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TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#29
In fact, since the discovery of the book of Matthew written in Hebrew, it's obvious that Jesus himself publically rejected the traditions and teachings of the Pharisees and Sadducees which we know know to be the Talmud. When the Pharisees and Sadducees would question Jesus' authority, Jesus would perform a supernatural miracle thus validating His divine authority which is why they wanted Jesus crucified immediately.
I find this fascinating. Can you provide some back-up for this?

I am aware that there are different sects of Judaism, and that there were different sects of Judaism in Jesus' day. I was not aware that there are sects that are around today that are basically the same from before the time of Jesus, and this whole bit about the Talmud being rejected by certain Jews is something I've never heard of, and would love to study more. Thanks in advance for references.
 
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TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#30
Absolutely. Many of our laws are written at least in part by lobbyists, who are not famous for having our best interests at heart. (I suppose I ought to verify that. I heard it from a reliable source, but 'prove all things'. I know that laws are pushed by lobbyists for the same reason, which is basically the same thing as having written them, if it's what they would have written anyway.)
You and I are in agreement here, brother.

I am a tax accountant (specializing in non-profit accounting, but I am licensed for all taxes), and I KNOW that a lot of our laws are as your describe.

Not that all lobbyists are evil. I know that there are lobbyists who actually do have our best interests at heart. A lot of non-profit organizations that do some incredible (good) charity work have lobbyists in Washington who push for legislation intended to help "the common good." So yes, there are lobbyists who are doing good. Then there are lobbyists who, I think, mean well but the laws they are pushing don't quite accomplish what they want. (I see a lot of gun legislation falls into this category. Like, yes, we would all like to see a decrease in violent crime. Is requiring law-abiding citizens to register all of their guns with local authorities going to achieve that goal? Is there evidence that supports this?) But by far the deepest-pocketed lobbyists are those of corporations, who push for things that will help them make more profits. Let them pay the lowest wages, avoid pollution and safety regulations, increase tariffs on the competition so they can gouge the customer.... This is NOT in the best interest of "the common good."

I think if Democrats and Republicans would stop their fighting among each other, they would realize we both have a common enemy. They don't really care what party the president is: they can use him no matter which party he's from. They will spin the message to drum up support for themselves from both parties, but they really don't care about us. They're just out for the Almighty Dollar.

That is the real enemy here. Not Republicans, not Democrats, not even non-Christians, but the corporate sell-out of government that we have allowed to happen right under our noses.

::looks around, quietly steps off soap box and edges away from the spot light::
 
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episcopotic

Guest
#31
One of the things built into many, let's call them hyperfundamentalist, hyperliteral systems, is the idea that the history of practice matters only insofar as it demonstrates the inaccuracy of what came before. Calvin said the Catholics were wrong, we got back on track, so let's not waste more of our time.

I was taught, essentially, that the early Christians did things right. I'm talking about the early Christians - the ones we read about in the Bible. Anyway, they did things mostly right - there were some minor disagreements, but those were wrapped up within the canon. The councils that came later were just everybody else catching up. Then the Catholics came and killed everybody. Then Calvin. Then us.

It's a remarkably dense wall. As an example, a reading from a third century Christian is not seen as helpful or even interesting; the fact that you brought it up at all means you're substituting other writings for scripture. Could you more quickly disqualify yourself from having a valid opinion? Irenaeus? Clement? Origen? Are you trying to go to hell?

Even thumbing through The Institutes of the Christian Religion is questionable. Calvin fixed the Catholicism nonsense and had to write a lot about it, but there's hardly any use reading it now. We know what's what and should get back to the Bible ASAP. It's the only valid way to connect with valid Christianity and anything else, however well-meaning, is borderline satanic. It's like reading Marx in the 60s - even if you don't agree with what you're reading, you probably shouldn't be seen doing it in public.

If this sounds like a caricature, it's only because I haven't done justice to the sheer impenetrability of the idea. I wish you the best of luck, but concern for anything between Jesus and now is for many a sign you're already ideologically AWOL. Not all fundamentalists, of course, and not all literalists (and these aren't the same thing), but this sort of thinking is very common where I come from.
 
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TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#32
Liberal has taking on a whole new meaning today than what it used to mean.

Liberal in the Bible = Generous

Liberal today = No such thing as right or wrong, just do what feels good and let others do the same.
If that is what you mean by "liberal" today, then that is your problem, not mine.

The word "liberal" means "generous." It did then, it does now. Taken to extreme, it can come to be forgiving to the extreme. To be so generous in forgiveness that you don't even consider some actions as "wrong" or "right," well, I could see that as being "liberal" to a point. Thing is, that's not what today's liberals are.

Today's liberals certainly don't say "there's no such thing as right or wrong." On the contrary, liberals absolutely believe in wrong and right! They may think different things are wrong than you do, and different things are right. For example, a liberal person thinks that turning down someone for a job just because that person is female, or non-white, or gay, is wrong. In this case, it would be easy to label the conservative as amoral, and the liberal as the voice or morality.

Today's conservatives think corporations should be able to run without any oversight or regulation. If someone gets hurt, that's that other person's fault. A corporation can do no wrong, as long as it's creating jobs (even if most of those jobs are over-seas) and making money (even if most of that money is going to those who already have an abundance). THAT is "no such thing as right or wrong, just do what feels good and let the others do the same." And that is absolutely what the liberals are fighting against.

A liberal believes in accountability: if you make a mess, you should clean it up.

A liberal believes in shared responsibility: what I do doesn't just affect me, it affects all those around me, and therefore, I can't just pretend like I live in a vacuum and do my own thing.

I'm not saying that you're the type of conservative who does what I describe above. For all I know, you agree that corporations should be responsible for cleaning up their own messes (rather than sloughing it on to the taxpayers' backs), and that actions have consequences, and therefore must be considered before calling some action legal or illegal. I know there are a good many conservatives who agree with me on these core issues. My husband, for example.

A person should take the time to listen to someone who disagrees with them, get to understand their point of view, before attacking it. Don't just assume you know what someone believes, based on what someone you agree with told you "they" believe. Would you trust an atheist to be accurate in what a Christian believes? Of course not. Then don't believe any conservative pundit to be accurate in what Liberalism means, and what we believe.

I promise not to assume you swallow the whole of "conservative party lines," and to listen to what you believe and why, even if I disagree, if you extend the same courtesy to me.
 
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TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#33
As an example, a reading from a third century Christian is not seen as helpful or even interesting; the fact that you brought it up at all means you're substituting other writings for scripture. Could you more quickly disqualify yourself from having a valid opinion? Irenaeus? Clement? Origen? Are you trying to go to hell?
I'm sorry, maybe I just haven't had enough coffee yet, but I don't quite grok what you're saying here.
 
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Closemyeyes2cU

Guest
#34
Lets put it this way, liberals tend to define for themselves what is right and wrong instead of letting the Word of God define it.
 
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episcopotic

Guest
#35
I'm sorry, maybe I just haven't had enough coffee yet, but I don't quite grok what you're saying here.
I mean, there are some systems of fundamentalism and literalism that have a built-in defense against any argument from history. What your link calls a phobia to history is in some cases actually much worse, at least in my experience. Mentioning history automatically disqualifies your opinion, because it's seen as substituting another authority over scripture (even if that's not your intention).

I'm wishing you luck, because the very argument some people need to accept is the very argument they're primed to reject most strongly.

As an example: You posted a link, not a verse - why do we care about what some man has written? Etc., etc.
 
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Closemyeyes2cU

Guest
#36
By the way, like your husband I am sick of republicans too. I'm just sick of liberals more :)
 
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TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#37
Lets put it this way, liberals tend to define for themselves what is right and wrong instead of letting the Word of God define it.
I disagree with this, too.

Liberals think that corporate greed is destroying this country. That has its basis in Scripture.

Liberals think that there is no greater commandment than to love God and love our neighbor. That's straight from Jesus' mouth.

Liberals think the way we show love for our neighbor is through care of those less fortunate than ourselves. This, too, is the central theme of the Prophets.

Conservatives, on the other hand, like to hand-pick a few verses here and there that support chastising others for sins, just because they're not guilty of those particular sins, all the while ignoring the scads of Scripture that judges them as equally sinful.

Conservatives like to talk about a "personal relationship" with Jesus, when there's absolutely nothing in Scripture to support such a view, but rather a clear message throughout new and old testaments that God expects our worship of him to be corporate and communal, not "personal."

Conservative want to pretend that certain scientific truths aren't actually there, so that they don't have to claim responsibility for the Earth that God commanded us to take care of, so they twist the interpretation until it fits their own view and make it seem like God actually thinks it's perfectly fine to abuse the natural resources.

See, two people can play that game. Where has it gotten us?
 
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TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#38
I mean, there are some systems of fundamentalism and literalism that have a built-in defense against any argument from history. What your link calls a phobia to history is in some cases actually much worse, at least in my experience. Mentioning history automatically disqualifies your opinion, because it's seen as substituting another authority over scripture (even if that's not your intention).

I'm wishing you luck, because the very argument some people need to accept is the very argument they're primed to reject most strongly.

As an example: You posted a link, not a verse - why do we care about what some man has written? Etc., etc.
Ah, okay, I see where you're going.

I guess that's not what I got out of the article. I saw, contrary to this, that the blogger actually was using historical evidence to support his arguments, just saying that his history goes further back than fundies' history.

Rather than reject all history that isn't straight from the Bible, I think the blogger is saying that we need to understand history as history, and Scripture as Scripture, and not confuse the two. He's complaining that too many fundamentalists think that Scripture is history, and consider history to be Scripture, when neither is true.

Maybe I missed something in the original blog, but that's what I got out of it.
 
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Closemyeyes2cU

Guest
#39
I disagree with this, too.

Liberals think that gay marriage is ok

Liberals think that abortion is ok

Liberals think that the word God being used in schools is the equivalent of a four letter word

Conservatives, on the other hand, are far from perfect but are the lesser of two evils

Conservatives like to talk about a "personal relationship" with Jesus, when that is what the Bible is all about. Adam and Eve had a personal relationship with God in the beginning and Jesus came to restore it.

Conservatives want to believe that scientific theories are just that, scientific theories and nothing more.

See, two people can play that game. Where has it gotten us?
Fixed!!!! :)
 
Jul 29, 2012
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#40
Liberals were mad that democrats put GOD back in. They booed. 3 TIMES