Mormons / Latter Day Saints

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Aug 11, 2014
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[TD="width: 20%"]Post by VCO

Pre-Existence
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LDS - teach that everyone pre-existed - we all exist eternally.[/TD]
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Bible - Only Christ pre-existed - not man. (John 8:58; Col 1:17) We didn't have a spiritual existence prior to earth. (I Cor 15:46)[/TD]
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First you must understand, I am under no illusion that I will convert anybody to Mormonism.

I am only interested in telling you how Mormons think about things related to the Bible. You will not believe how we interpret the scriptures very often, but at least you will have knowledge about how we come to our conclusions.

By the way Sandra Tanner is a rabbit anti-Mormon activist. Not a good person to be getting your Mormon information from. It would be like me going to an anti-Christian Muslim activist to learn what Christianity teaches.

So, having said that, I thought I would start this discussion with the first topic -- The Pre-existence:

The first question is this: In 6 days did God create all that would be created, or is the creation still happening after 6,000
earth years? Make a statement, then add scripture if you wish.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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First you must understand, I am under no illusion that I will convert anybody to Mormonism.

I am only interested in telling you how Mormons think about things related to the Bible. You will not believe how we interpret the scriptures very often, but at least you will have knowledge about how we come to our conclusions.

By the way Sandra Tanner is a rabbit anti-Mormon activist. Not a good person to be getting your Mormon information from. It would be like me going to an anti-Christian Muslim activist to learn what Christianity teaches.

So, having said that, I thought I would start this discussion with the first topic -- The Pre-existence:

The first question is this: In 6 days did God create all that would be created, or is the creation still happening after 6,000
earth years? Make a statement, then add scripture if you wish.
I'll chime in here...I can see the beauty of different creation approaches... I'll go with finished back then in six days...
 
Aug 11, 2014
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I'll chime in here...I can see the beauty of different creation approaches... I'll go with finished back then in six days...
Thanks Dan_473, when VCO makes his statement/scripture (or anyone else), I will let you know why this question is important.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,984
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First you must understand, I am under no illusion that I will convert anybody to Mormonism.

I am only interested in telling you how Mormons think about things related to the Bible. You will not believe how we interpret the scriptures very often, but at least you will have knowledge about how we come to our conclusions.

By the way Sandra Tanner is a rabbit anti-Mormon activist. Not a good person to be getting your Mormon information from. It would be like me going to an anti-Christian Muslim activist to learn what Christianity teaches.

So, having said that, I thought I would start this discussion with the first topic -- The Pre-existence:

The first question is this: In 6 days did God create all that would be created, or is the creation still happening after 6,000
earth years? Make a statement, then add scripture if you wish.
And you only know what you have been told about her. Everything she publishes is documented proving that is what the LDS Church teaches.

Mormons believe we are pre-existent as spirit children.

QUOTE: People are the preexisted spiritual offspring of the Heavenly Father and Mother. "All men and women are . . . literally the sons and daughters of Deity . . . Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal (physical) body" (Joseph F. Smith, "The Origin of Man," Improvement Era, Nov. 1909, pp. 78,80, as quoted in GP, p. 11).They are born basically good and are "gods in embryo." A commonly quoted Mormon aphorism (attributed to fifth LDS president Lorenzo Snow) says "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become."

So would you listen to a man that spent YEARS as a MORMON BISHOP?

[video=youtube;4X034VNo8yw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4X034VNo8yw[/video]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jbJK-FFfkQ More of the testimony and message of a former Mormon Bishop Lee B. Baker.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Thanks Dan_473, when VCO makes his statement/scripture (or anyone else), I will let you know why this question is important.
OF COURSE I believe in the Literal 6 days of creation. Jesus is GOD THE CREATOR, and He showed us how HE creates at the feeding of the 5000 and the feeding of the 4000. HE CREATED the fish in their Adult stage of life instantaneously. I think the theory of Evolution is a FAR MORE DANGEROUS FALSE TEACHING than Mormonism.

Colossians 1:16-19 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For everything was created by Him, in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] He is before all things, and by Him all things hold together.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] He is also the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He might come to have first place in everything.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For God was pleased ⌊to have⌋ all His fullness dwell in Him,
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,984
4,604
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OF COURSE I believe in the Literal 6 days of creation. Jesus is GOD THE CREATOR, and He showed us how HE creates at the feeding of the 5000 and the feeding of the 4000. HE CREATED the fish in their Adult stage of life instantaneously. I think the theory of Evolution is a FAR MORE DANGEROUS FALSE TEACHING than Mormonism.

Colossians 1:16-19 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For everything was created by Him, in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] He is before all things, and by Him all things hold together.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] He is also the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He might come to have first place in everything.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For God was pleased ⌊to have⌋ all His fullness dwell in Him,

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Colossians 1:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

1:16 False teachers use verse 15 (especially in the KJV) to teach that the Lord Jesus was a created being. Error can usually be refuted from the very passage of Scripture which the cultists use. That is the case here. Verse 16 states conclusively that the Lord Jesus is not a creature, but the very Creator. In this verse we learn that all things—the whole universe of things—were created not only by Him but through Him and for Him. Each of these prepositions conveys a different thought. First of all, we read that by Him all things were created. Here the thought is that the power to create was in His Being. He was the Architect. Later in the verse we learn that all things were created through Him. This speaks of Him as the Agent in creation. He was the Person of the Godhead through whom the creative act was performed. Also, all things were created for Him. He is the One for whom all things were created, the goal of creation.Paul goes to great lengths to emphasize that all things were created through Christ, whether things in heaven, or things on earth. This leaves no loopholes for anyone to suggest that although He created some things, He Himself was created originally.
The apostle then goes on to state that the Lord's creation included things visible and things invisible. The word visible needs no explanation, but doubtless the Apostle Paul realized that when he said invisible he would arouse our curiosity. Therefore, he proceeds to give a break-down of what he means by things invisible. They include thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers. We believe that these terms refer to angelic beings, although we cannot distinguish between the different ranks of these intelligent beings.
The Gnostics taught that there were various ranks and classes of spirit beings between God and matter, and that Christ belonged to one of these classes. In our day the Spiritists claim that Jesus Christ is an advanced spirit of the sixth sphere. Jehovah's Witnesses teach that before our Lord came into the world, He was a created angel and none other than the archangel Michael! Here Paul vigorously refutes such absurd notions by stating in the clearest possible terms that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Creator of angels—in fact, of all beings, whether visible or invisible.
1:17 He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Paul says, "He is before all things," not "He was before all things." The present tense is often used in the Bible to describe the timelessness of Deity. The Lord Jesus said, for instance: "Before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58).
Not only did the Lord Jesus exist before there was any creation, but also in Him all things consist. This means that He is the Sustainer of the universe and the Source of its perpetual motion. He controls the stars and the sun and the moon. Even while He was here on earth He was the One who was controlling the laws by which our universe functions in an orderly manner.
1:18 The dominion of the Lord Jesus not only covers the natural universe, but it also extends to the spiritual realm. He is the head of the body, the church. All believers in the Lord Jesus during this dispensation are formed into what is known as the body of Christ, or the church. Just as a human body is a vehicle by which the person expresses himself, so the Body of Christ is that vehicle which He has on earth by which He chooses to express Himself to the world. And He is the head of that body. The head speaks of guidance, dictation, control. He occupies the place of pre-eminence in the church.
He is the beginning. We understand this to mean the beginning of the new creation (see Rev. 3:14), the source of spiritual life. This is further explained by the use of the expression the firstborn from the dead. Here again we must be careful to emphasize that this does not mean that the Lord Jesus was the first to rise from the dead. There were cases of resurrection in the OT as well as in the NT. But the Lord Jesus was the first to rise from the dead to die no more, He was the first to rise with a glorified body, and He rose as the Head of a new creation. His resurrection is unique, and is the pledge that all who trust in Him will also rise. It proclaims Him as supreme in the spiritual creation.
Alfred Mace put it well:
Christ cannot be second anywhere. He is "firstborn of every creature," because He has created everything (Col. 1:15, 16). He is also firstborn from the dead in connection with a redeemed and heavenly family. Thus creation and redemption hand the honors of supremacy to Him because of Who He is and of what He has done; "that in all things He might have the pre-eminence." He is first everywhere.
The Lord Jesus has thus a double pre-eminence—first in creation, and then in the church. God has decreed that in all things HE may have the preeminence. What an answer this is to those who, in Paul's day (and our own), would seek to rob Christ of His deity, and to make of Him only a created being, however exalted!
As we read that in all things He may have the preeminence, it is only proper that we should ask ourselves, "Does He have the preeminence in my life?"
1:19 Darby translates verse 19 as follows: "For in Him all the fullness of the Godhead was pleased to dwell." The King James tradition could make it sound as if at some point in time the Father (notice italics for words not in the Greek) was pleased to make all fullness dwell in the Son. The real meaning is that the fullness of the Godhead always dwelt in Christ.
Gnostic heretics taught that Christ was a kind of "halfway house" to God, a necessary link in the chain. But there were other, better links on ahead. "Go on from Him," they urged, "and you will reach the fullness." "No," Paul answers, "Christ is Himself the complete fullness!"
All fullness dwells in Christ. The word for dwell here means to dwell permanently, and not simply to visit temporarily.
1:20 Verse 19 is connected with verse 20 as follows: "For it pleased the Father by Him (Christ) to reconcile all things to Himself... having made peace through the blood of His cross." In other words, it was not only the Godhead's good pleasure that all fullness should dwell in Christ (v. 19), but also that Christ should reconcile all things to Himself.

Believer's Bible Commentary: A Thorough, Yet Easy-to-Read Bible Commentary That Turns Complicated Theology Into Practical Understanding.
 
Jun 4, 2014
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Granted I cannot see your heart, but if you do not believe in the Deity of Jesus Christ, receiving HIM as GOD in the flesh and as LORD, which means Master. You are then guilty of Blaspheming the work of Holy Spirit, for it is HE who is trying to apply that information about Jesus Christ to your heart personally. GOD says that sin will never be forgiven.
Not true. Jesus said all manner of sin will be forget. Blasphemy is saying that He WONT forgive any manner of sin.
 
Jun 4, 2014
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You don't get it, do you. Mormonism is a Psuedo-Christian Cult, that teaches a different Father, a different Jesus Christ, and a different Holy Spirit, than the Holy Trinity of the BIBLE. Not only that, but they teach a whole different gospel, than the Bible teaches. They only imitate Christianity and use our terminology while meaning something different by almost every term, and really are not Christians at all. Please read the information on this Site: Terminology Differences (Main)


2 Corinthians 11:13-15 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And no wonder! For Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] So it is no great thing if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their destiny will be according to their works.
You don't get it. I don't care what Mormonism is! I only love the man, not the "Mormon". A false teacher is ANYONE who separates the people and not gather them. If you had your way, every man who calls himself a "Mormon" will burn in hell! That is major separation and false teaching. God is Spirit. If I demonstrate love then love will be returned unto me.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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You don't get it. I don't care what Mormonism is! I only love the man, not the "Mormon". A false teacher is ANYONE who separates the people and not gather them. If you had your way, every man who calls himself a "Mormon" will burn in hell! That is major separation and false teaching. God is Spirit. If I demonstrate love then love will be returned unto me.
So do I, but I want to see them in HEAVEN TOO, and they will not make it when they have not received JESUS CHRIST of the Bible, Who is God in the Flesh. Believing in FALSE CHRIST will never get them to heaven. You are only concerned if they are your buddies, here and now. I am concerned if they will be in Heaven with me and the REST of TRUE BELIEVERS.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Not true. Jesus said all manner of sin will be forget. Blasphemy is saying that He WONT forgive any manner of sin.
You have GOT TO LEARN to get your theology from the BIBLE.

Mark 3:28-29 (NIV)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."

1 John 2:4 (NKJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Revelation 21:8 (NKJV)

[SUP]8 [/SUP] But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
 
Aug 11, 2014
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Posted by VCO #345

OF COURSE I believe in the Literal 6 days of creation
OK, here is the dilemma: God created all men and women on the 6th day of creation. That means billions of men and women were created on day 6.

Only 2 of those billions were actually put on the earth on day 6, Adam and Eve. Where was God holding all the rest?

Only 2 of those billions who were actually put on the earth on day 6 had bodies of flesh and bone. What form were all the billions still waiting to come to earth in. Flesh and bone? Spirit? Combination?

Tomorrow, Aug.28, 2014 there will be thousands of infants born all over the world. What have they been doing since they were created by God on day 6 over 6000 years ago?
 
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Jun 4, 2014
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You have GOT TO LEARN to get your theology from the BIBLE.

Mark 3:28-29 (NIV)
[SUP]28[/SUP] I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."

1 John 2:4 (NKJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Revelation 21:8 (NKJV)

[SUP]8 [/SUP] But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
You simply need to stop building on the works of other men. I'm not mainstream, I represent the truth.


Again we are in the lake now! We and all that us not of God is on fire.
 
Aug 11, 2014
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Posted by VCO #344

"As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become."
If one side of this equation is true, the other side will be true also. Right?

Well the first side of the equation says, As man is, God once was. As I remember from the scriptures, Jesus was made fully human (man) and dwelt in this human form for 33 years. In fact his preferred name was "son of MAN". So Jesus, (who was the God of the OT, so we can call him God) God was once a man, just as much a man as we are.

Again if the first side it true, then the second side must be true. Well the second side says, As God is, man may become. Now if you really think about that, it is the very reason that Jesus was resurrected with his glorious, perfect body of flesh and bone. He made it possible for all men also to be resurrected with a glorious, perfect body of flesh and bone, just like him. And since we can have God indwelling in us just like God indwells in Jesus, we can be just like Jesus. Man may become just like Jesus/God. It really isn't that difficult.

The scriptures are full of statements that Jesus is the heir of all that God has. The scriptures also say that we are joint heirs with Jesus in all that God has. So if we have a glorious body like Jesus and we have all that he has and if we overcome the world and sit with him in his throne, what are we? Has man not become like God?

Lorenzo Snow was right out of the scriptures with that thought. It is brilliant, it is true, the scriptures and Jesus bear record.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,984
4,604
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OK, here is the dilemma: God created all men and women on the 6th day of creation. That means billions of men and women were created on day 6.

Only 2 of those billions were actually put on the earth on day 6, Adam and Eve. Where was God holding all the rest?

Only 2 of those billions who were actually put on the earth on day 6 had bodies of flesh and bone. What form were all the billions still waiting to come to earth in. Flesh and bone? Spirit? Combination?

Tomorrow, Aug.28, 2014 there will be thousands of infants born all over the world. What have they been doing since they were created by God on day 6 over 6000 years ago?
Who told you that lie, Joseph Smith?

HE CREATED ONLY TWO, ONE MAN AND LATER THAT EVENING HE CREATED ADAM A MATE from one of his ribs. NATURAL PROCREATION is where the rest of us ALL CAME FROM. ONLY ADAM AND EVE EXISTED when they were kicked out of the GARDEN OF EDEN. LOOK IT UP. Get your theology from the BIBLE not Joseph Smith.
 
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VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,984
4,604
113
You simply need to stop building on the works of other men. I'm not mainstream, I represent the truth.


Again we are in the lake now! We and all that us not of God is on fire.
No, you represent, YET another Psuedo-Christian Cult. Repent, and COME to the real Jesus Christ. You are listening to the doctrines of demons. I tell you that TRUTH, because I love you and want you in HEAVEN when He calls HIS BRIDE to go to the Wedding of the LAMB in Heaven.

The spirit you listen to is contradicting the BIBLE all over the place.
How is it you think it is the FATHER, when contradictions of what HE HAS SAID IN HIS WORD ARE LIES?
 
Jun 4, 2014
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No, you represent, YET another Psuedo-Christian Cult. Repent, and COME to the real Jesus Christ. You are listening to the doctrines of demons. I tell you that TRUTH, because I love you and want you in HEAVEN when He calls HIS BRIDE to go to the Wedding of the LAMB in Heaven.

The spirit you listen to is contradicting the BIBLE all over the place.
How is it you think it is the FATHER, when contradictions of what HE HAS SAID IN HIS WORD ARE LIES?
How so? Of what law did I break in forgiving the Mormon? You need to see your own sin before you worry so about another's shortcomings.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,984
4,604
113
If one side of this equation is true, the other side will be true also. Right?

Well the first side of the equation says, As man is, God once was. As I remember from the scriptures, Jesus was made fully human (man) and dwelt in this human form for 33 years. In fact his preferred name was "son of MAN". So Jesus, (who was the God of the OT, so we can call him God) God was once a man, just as much a man as we are.

Again if the first side it true, then the second side must be true. Well the second side says, As God is, man may become. Now if you really think about that, it is the very reason that Jesus was resurrected with his glorious, perfect body of flesh and bone. He made it possible for all men also to be resurrected with a glorious, perfect body of flesh and bone, just like him. And since we can have God indwelling in us just like God indwells in Jesus, we can be just like Jesus. Man may become just like Jesus/God. It really isn't that difficult.

The scriptures are full of statements that Jesus is the heir of all that God has. The scriptures also say that we are joint heirs with Jesus in all that God has. So if we have a glorious body like Jesus and we have all that he has and if we overcome the world and sit with him in his throne, what are we? Has man not become like God?

Lorenzo Snow was right out of the scriptures with that thought. It is brilliant, it is true, the scriptures and Jesus bear record.
QUOTE IT ACCURATLY, IF YOU ARE GOING TO QUOTE IT or you are Lying, which is a sin. I DID NOT SAY THAT, that is a quote from LDS TEACHING, that is is NOT FROM THE BIBLE. "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become." BOTH SIDES OF THAT STATEMENT ARE A LIE FROM SATAN. It is part of LIE he deceived EVE with.


Genesis 3:5 (GW)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] “God knows that when you eat it your eyes will be opened. You'll be like God, knowing good and evil.”
John 8:44 (GW)
[SUP]44 [/SUP] You come from your father, the devil, and you desire to do what your father wants you to do. The devil was a murderer from the beginning. He has never been truthful. He doesn't know what the truth is. Whenever he tells a lie, he's doing what comes naturally to him. He's a liar and the father of lies.

Genesis 3:13 (GW)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Then the LORD God asked the woman, “What have you done?” The snake deceived me, and I ate,” the woman answered.

Yes Adam and Eve were totally innocent, BUT then like GOD they learned the difference between good and EVIL, NOT BY BECOMING A GOD, BUT by becoming SINNERS.

Again, Get your theology from the BIBLE, and NOT from Joseph Smith.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,984
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How so? Of what law did I break in forgiving the Mormon? You need to see your own sin before you worry so about another's shortcomings.
YOUR Contradictions about the Deity of Christ.
 
F

Fishbait

Guest
You don't get it. I don't care what Mormonism is! I only love the man, not the "Mormon". A false teacher is ANYONE who separates the people and not gather them. If you had your way, every man who calls himself a "Mormon" will burn in hell! That is major separation and false teaching. God is Spirit. If I demonstrate love then love will be returned unto me.
If you love "the man" who is a Mormon you should save him from his beliefs. Otherwise you stood by and let him die without being saved while not even trying to save him. That's not 'love'. The task ahead for you is a hard one. If you "love the man" then do everything you can to save his soul.

Before trying to save a Mormons soul you first have to know what they believe and what you're up against. Here's what Mormons believe:

The Mormon religion (Mormonism), whose followers are known as Mormons and Latter Day Saints (LDS), was founded less than two hundred years ago by a man named Joseph Smith. He claimed to have received a personal visit from God the Father and Jesus Christ who told him that all churches and their creeds were an abomination. Joseph Smith then set out to begin a brand-new religion that claims to be the “only true church on earth.” The problem with Mormonism is that it contradicts, modifies, and expands on the Bible. Christians have no reason to believe that the Bible is not true and adequate. To truly believe in and trust God means to believe in His Word, and all Scripture is inspired by God, which means it comes from Him (2 Timothy 3:16).

Mormons believe that there are in fact four sources of divinely inspired words, not just one: 1) The Bible “as far as it is translated correctly.” Which verses are considered incorrectly translated is not always made clear. 2) The Book of Mormon, which was “translated” by Smith and published in 1830. Smith claimed it is the “most correct book” on earth and that a person can get closer to God by following its precepts “than by any other book.” 3) The Doctrine and Covenants, containing a collection of modern revelations regarding the “Church of Jesus Christ as it has been restored.” 4) The Pearl of the Great Price, which is considered by Mormons to “clarify” doctrines and teachings that were lost from the Bible and adds its own information about the earth's creation. Read more: What is Mormonism? What do Mormons believe?

I wish you luck and pray for the Lords help.
 
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