Mormons / Latter Day Saints

[posthuman]

also, I believe I have showed, proved even, that Paul at the areopagus, and the poet, are saying that we are physical, as well as spiritual, children of God...

i believe Jesus unequivocally stated that some are children of the devil, not of God, regardless of their physical descendancy, but revealed in our hearts, minds and actions. (John 8:31-59)

that God created all of us is not in question (though the LDS deny it).

we are His creation; we gentiles are offered the grace to become His children by adoption, as Just-Me points out ^

 

[daniel606]

Posted by posthuman

that God created all of us is not in question (though the LDS deny it).

Just what do you think we are denying?

 

[just-me]

i believe Jesus unequivocally stated that some are children of the devil, not of God, regardless of their physical descendancy, but revealed in our hearts, minds and actions. (John 8:31-59)

that God created all of us is not in question (though the LDS deny it).

we are His creation; we gentiles are offered the grace to become His children by adoption, as Just-Me points out ^

Just what do you think we are denying?

Posthuman. Even though I put a like on your post, I haven't outright heard the LDS denies that God, i.e Jesus is the creator of all things. I know that the LDS doctrine looks at Jesus and God as separate but not in functionality. It's a matter of interpretation when including 1 Corinthians 15:28.

Daniel, maybe when we start talking about my questions that you so graciously asked if I had and then this seemingly vague use of semantics can be resolved. We all must be gentle and apt to edify each other as obedient children of God through Christ Jesus.

 

[Billyd]

Daniel and Dan, I'm still enjoying the discussion. Could you take a moment and give a short summary of where we stand on the subject of Spirit Children? Again, thanks for the civility. It's a rare thing when this subject is addressed.

 

[daniel606]

Posted by just-me
this post

Originally Posted by just-me

1. Who raised Jesus from the dead?
2. Does God have a physical body?
3. Does God have a wife?
4. Is Jesus the creator of all things?
5. What purpose does the Aaronic priesthood have in the new covenant with Christ?
6. Is there 2 things to observe about the law God gave to Moses.
.......................One being the temple law and ordinances,
.......................and the other is our responsible obligations to reciprocate in the love of God toward Him and others.

Lets look at: Does God have a physical body? Should be interesting.

Start with Genesis 32:30 where Jacob saw God face to face. And Genesis 33:11 where Moses saw God face to face.
According to the scriptures, at least God has a face, and I am led to believe that because he has a face, he probaby has a torso and legs and arms and hands and feet. Isn't there some scripture that says God is in our image and likeness, which goes a long way to help me believe he has a whole body, just like mine. I must say, however, that His body is an exalted, perfect, powerful, almost incomprehensible body, but a body nonetheless.

So what do you think?

 

[posthuman]

Posthuman. Even though I put a like on your post, I haven't outright heard the LDS denies that God, i.e Jesus is the creator of all things. I know that the LDS doctrine looks at Jesus and God as separate but not in functionality. It's a matter of interpretation when including 1 Corinthians 15:28.

here is a quote from the LDS Doctrine & Covenants, section 93, verse 29:

Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
(i'm quoting from this source: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/93.29?lang=eng#28)

a plain reading of this is that man is uncreated.

that's what i'm (in part) referring to saying that the LDS deny that God created all of us -- because their doctrine specifically states that man is eternally existent, on par with God, having no beginning. i'd be happy to hear a Mormon explain differently.

 

[dcontroversal]

Posthuman. Even though I put a like on your post, I haven't outright heard the LDS denies that God, i.e Jesus is the creator of all things. I know that the LDS doctrine looks at Jesus and God as separate but not in functionality. It's a matter of interpretation when including 1 Corinthians 15:28.

Daniel, maybe when we start talking about my questions that you so graciously asked if I had and then this seemingly vague use of semantics can be resolved. We all must be gentle and apt to edify each other as obedient children of God through Christ Jesus.

Well...According to the LDS I have talked with they put Jesus and Satan on the same level as created and brothers....<-----this is heretical and proves that the LDS Jesus is not the Jesus of the bible.......God did not go to Jesus and Satan and give them the option to come up with plans to redeem humanity as Jesus surrendered himself unto the will of the Heavenly Father whose WILL it was to make the way of redemption possible for humanity....

DISCLAIMER....KEY WORDS ARE BOLDED ABOVE

 

[daniel606]

Posted by Billyd

Daniel and Dan, I'm still enjoying the discussion. Could you take a moment and give a short summary of where we stand on the subject of Spirit Children? Again, thanks for the civility. It's a rare thing when this subject is addressed.

Well at this point, I have given some scriptures that I believe should open some eyes a little larger to the possibilty of things happening before the world was created. If you talk to most Nicean Christians, you will find that without thinking much, will say that before the world was made, only God and Jesus existed.

When I am finished with my presentation, most still do not believe all that I say, but at least they realize that there was a lot more going on than they had ever thought of before. For instance: There was a war fought in heaven before the earth was populated by Adam and Eve. Michael and his angels fought against Lucifer and his angels and Lucifer lost and he and his angels were thrust out of heaven on to this earth. These were spirit angels, created by God. How many there were, when were they created we don't have all the answers, but one thing we do know they existed before the world was created. (Read the war in heaven in Revelations 12)

Next, I quote Job 38:3-7 and we find that among the spirit beings in heaven was a group called "the sons of God". We know they were with God before the earth was created by the questions asked Job.

So there you have it. Lots going on before the world was created. Spirit angels both good and bad, and spirit sons of God, all present with God and Jesus before the world. I think the Mormon position of a spirit pre-mortal life in heaven is much more tenable than only God and Jesus existed before the world was made.

What do you think?

 

[just-me]

Lets look at: Does God have a physical body? Should be interesting.

Start with Genesis 32:30 where Jacob saw God face to face. And Genesis 33:11 where Moses saw God face to face.
According to the scriptures, at least God has a face, and I am led to believe that because he has a face, he probaby has a torso and legs and arms and hands and feet. Isn't there some scripture that says God is in our image and likeness, which goes a long way to help me believe he has a whole body, just like mine. I must say, however, that His body is an exalted, perfect, powerful, almost incomprehensible body, but a body nonetheless.

So what do you think?

In these scriptures you brought forth, "elohim" is the Hebrew word. It represents a plural according to the original Hebrew language. (אֱלֹהִים) The scripture in Genesis 32:30 is properly seeing God's favor toward Jacob in this struggle. The name "Yehovah/Jehovah is used in Genesis 18:1 which means "self existent." Hear The Lord Jehovah appears and speaks with Abraham before sending the other 2 angels to Sodom to rescue Lot. Note that these are 2 different names but one Lord God. Am I correct?

 

[just-me]

Lets look at: Does God have a physical body?
According to the scriptures, at least God has a face, and I am led to believe that because he has a face, he probaby has a torso and legs and arms and hands and feet. Isn't there some scripture that says God is in our image and likeness, which goes a long way to help me believe he has a whole body, just like mine. I must say, however, that His body is an exalted, perfect, powerful, almost incomprehensible body, but a body nonetheless.

Genesis 1:26 And God said , Let us (this is the plural Elohim again as in post 649) make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

 

[just-me]

Well...According to the LDS I have talked with they put Jesus and Satan on the same level as created and brothers....<-----this is heretical and proves that the LDS Jesus is not the Jesus of the bible.......God did not go to Jesus and Satan and give them the option to come up with plans to redeem humanity as Jesus surrendered himself unto the will of the Heavenly Father whose WILL it was to make the way of redemption possible for humanity....

DISCLAIMER....KEY WORDS ARE BOLDED ABOVE

I think we may be at the doorstep of rightly dividing as we talk about God having a physical body likened unto ours.
John 14:8-9 will show us a lot as was shown to Philip
see this
and this

 

[daniel606]

Posted by dcontoversal

Well...According to the LDS I have talked with they put Jesus and Satan on the same level as created and brothers....<-----this is heretical and proves that the LDS Jesus is not the Jesus of the bible.......God did not go to Jesus and Satan and give them the option to come up with plans to redeem humanity as Jesus surrendered himself unto the will of the Heavenly Father whose WILL it was to make the way of redemption possible for humanity....

DISCLAIMER....KEY WORDS ARE BOLDED ABOVE

I have been wondering when you would enter the discussion, you always have interesting things to say.

This is an interesting problem for Mormons. How could the most evil person in the universe possibly be the brother of the God of the OT.

You must realize that you are looking at this relationship only since the earth was populated. You are not looking at it from the beginning. Therefore it is mind-boggingly impossible to reach the Mormon conclusion.

However, if you knew what satan/Lucifer was in the pre-mortal life, you might start taking another look. Lucifer (who on earth is satan) was an important spirit. Scholars tell us that the name Lucifer has reference to "light bearer". I believe he was a very powerful, and influencial spirit that was very close to God and Jesus. A Christian website at
Preparing For Eternity - Online Books, Bible Articles, Inspiring Stories, Bible Study Tools... has an online book called the Story of Redemption. In the first chapter it talks about Lucifer before his fall, and it says, Lucifer in heaven before his fall was next in honor to God's dear son.

So all I am saying is, if you look at Lucifer and Jesus in the pre-mortal life and before Lucifer's fall, they possibly sat next to each other and both were very powerful, honorable and influencial.

Isaiah is in fact is shocked that Lucifer fell, when he said in Isaiah 14:12, How art thou fallen, from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning? This fall was shocking for all of heaven because Lucifer was such a stalwart "light bearer" for God.

Of course the fall did take place, he did not go softly, he caused a war in heaven and he and 1/3 of the angels in heaven were thrust out onto the earth (see Revelations 12). It just went downhill fast from there. But if you could see him sitting next to Jesus, when he was following God, you would have a smaller objection that they were brothers.

Lucifer began to think of himself as higher than even his Father God. There is no doubt God created him. He used his free will finally against God and suffered the consequenses of his actions. Jesus on the other hand used his free will to follow the Father and his will. He said thy will be done. He went on to be the God of the OT and the Savior of all mankind. His now arch-enemy, satan, is on earth and as Jesus preaches the truth, satan does everything in his power to thwart the work of salvation.

So keep following Jesus and you will not have to even encounter satan and you will be rewarded in the Kingdom of God.

 

[Kerry]

Well at this point, I have given some scriptures that I believe should open some eyes a little larger to the possibilty of things happening before the world was created. If you talk to most Nicean Christians, you will find that without thinking much, will say that before the world was made, only God and Jesus existed.

When I am finished with my presentation, most still do not believe all that I say, but at least they realize that there was a lot more going on than they had ever thought of before. For instance: There was a war fought in heaven before the earth was populated by Adam and Eve. Michael and his angels fought against Lucifer and his angels and Lucifer lost and he and his angels were thrust out of heaven on to this earth. These were spirit angels, created by God. How many there were, when were they created we don't have all the answers, but one thing we do know they existed before the world was created. (Read the war in heaven in Revelations 12)

Next, I quote Job 38:3-7 and we find that among the spirit beings in heaven was a group called "the sons of God". We know they were with God before the earth was created by the questions asked Job.

So there you have it. Lots going on before the world was created. Spirit angels both good and bad, and spirit sons of God, all present with God and Jesus before the world. I think the Mormon position of a spirit pre-mortal life in heaven is much more tenable than only God and Jesus existed before the world was made.

What do you think?

The Lord God formed Adam out of the ground and breathed in his nostrils the breath of life. It was not from any preexisting beings. Part of the reason that Satan rebelled against God is the fact that man would rule over him. Paul say no ye not that we shall judge angels? There was stuff going here before the creation of man, but that world was destroyed and those being's became demons and they will be judge and sent to the fire in the great white throne judgement. Why do you think that the man who had a thousand demons, when they saw Jesus, they said Have you come to judge us before our time, let us go into those pigs and Jesus allowed them such.

 

[just-me]

So all I am saying is, if you look at Lucifer and Jesus in the pre-mortal life and before Lucifer's fall, they possibly sat next to each other and both were very powerful, honorable and influencial.

I did research on the attributes of Lucifer in comparison to Christ Jesus. The attributes are the same as the stones in the breastplate of the High Priest. God created Lucifer with only 9 and Christ has 12.

 

[posthuman]

(out of context)

.. it is mind-boggingly impossible to reach the Mormon conclusion.

ah, now here's something that the saints won't argue over!

 

[Billyd]

Well at this point, I have given some scriptures that I believe should open some eyes a little larger to the possibilty of things happening before the world was created. If you talk to most Nicean Christians, you will find that without thinking much, will say that before the world was made, only God and Jesus existed.

When I am finished with my presentation, most still do not believe all that I say, but at least they realize that there was a lot more going on than they had ever thought of before. For instance: There was a war fought in heaven before the earth was populated by Adam and Eve. Michael and his angels fought against Lucifer and his angels and Lucifer lost and he and his angels were thrust out of heaven on to this earth. These were spirit angels, created by God. How many there were, when were they created we don't have all the answers, but one thing we do know they existed before the world was created. (Read the war in heaven in Revelations 12)

Next, I quote Job 38:3-7 and we find that among the spirit beings in heaven was a group called "the sons of God". We know they were with God before the earth was created by the questions asked Job.

So there you have it. Lots going on before the world was created. Spirit angels both good and bad, and spirit sons of God, all present with God and Jesus before the world. I think the Mormon position of a spirit pre-mortal life in heaven is much more tenable than only God and Jesus existed before the world was made.

What do you think?

First we have Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." I would say that from the fact that he created the heavens, and nothing is stated about how or in what sequence He created them, your premise is possible.

Then we have John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him was not any thing made that was made." Again, nothing is stated order or sequence, your premise is possible.

"Sons of God" is addressed five times in the Old Testament. When or why God created is not. It appears from Job that they were present at the creation of the morning stars. Again your premise is possible.

I assume that you are calling these "Sons of God" Spirit Children. If so I can accept that. I can not find anywhere that indicates that Satan or Angels are anything other than creations of God. They can not be addressed as children of God. I don't feel that they can be called "Spirit Children".

I believe that you have addressed this, but it would be great for you to answer summarize why are Spirit Children important to the Mormon Religion.

Thanks.

 

[posthuman]

So all I am saying is, if you look at Lucifer and Jesus in the pre-mortal life and before Lucifer's fall, they possibly sat next to each other and both were very powerful, honorable and influencial.

here is where we start to differ.
you're talking about Jesus as though He is like Satan, a creature.
but what i believe is that He is the Word, the Word that is with God and is God from the beginning.
Satan at a time was with God but Satan has never been God.

Jesus is not and never has been an angel. he is before all things (Colossians 1:1, Micah 5:2).
as He became flesh and lived among us, he could also become as an angel and reveal Himself - who else did Gideon or Joshua see? - but that is manifestation, not existence.

Satan is an anointed cherub, and was created. (Ezekiel 28:13-15)

the cherubim are beside the throne, but Christ sits upon it.

 

[posthuman]

So keep following Jesus and you will not have to even encounter satan and you will be rewarded in the Kingdom of God.

i agree with part of that
except that if i follow Jesus, i am bound to encounter Satan for sure!!

 

[posthuman]

(Colossians 1:1, Micah 5:2)

whoops! Colossians 1:17

 

[dcontroversal]

I have been wondering when you would enter the discussion, you always have interesting things to say.

This is an interesting problem for Mormons. How could the most evil person in the universe possibly be the brother of the God of the OT.

You must realize that you are looking at this relationship only since the earth was populated. You are not looking at it from the beginning. Therefore it is mind-boggingly impossible to reach the Mormon conclusion.

However, if you knew what satan/Lucifer was in the pre-mortal life, you might start taking another look. Lucifer (who on earth is satan) was an important spirit. Scholars tell us that the name Lucifer has reference to "light bearer". I believe he was a very powerful, and influencial spirit that was very close to God and Jesus. A Christian website at
Preparing For Eternity - Online Books, Bible Articles, Inspiring Stories, Bible Study Tools... has an online book called the Story of Redemption. In the first chapter it talks about Lucifer before his fall, and it says, Lucifer in heaven before his fall was next in honor to God's dear son.

So all I am saying is, if you look at Lucifer and Jesus in the pre-mortal life and before Lucifer's fall, they possibly sat next to each other and both were very powerful, honorable and influencial.

Isaiah is in fact is shocked that Lucifer fell, when he said in Isaiah 14:12, How art thou fallen, from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning? This fall was shocking for all of heaven because Lucifer was such a stalwart "light bearer" for God.

Of course the fall did take place, he did not go softly, he caused a war in heaven and he and 1/3 of the angels in heaven were thrust out onto the earth (see Revelations 12). It just went downhill fast from there. But if you could see him sitting next to Jesus, when he was following God, you would have a smaller objection that they were brothers.

Lucifer began to think of himself as higher than even his Father God. There is no doubt God created him. He used his free will finally against God and suffered the consequenses of his actions. Jesus on the other hand used his free will to follow the Father and his will. He said thy will be done. He went on to be the God of the OT and the Savior of all mankind. His now arch-enemy, satan, is on earth and as Jesus preaches the truth, satan does everything in his power to thwart the work of salvation.

So keep following Jesus and you will not have to even encounter satan and you will be rewarded in the Kingdom of God.

No offence, but two problems with your theory...

1. Lucifer was CREATED BY JESUS and FELL BY SIN
2. JESUS is the creator GOD and ALL THINGS were CREATED by HIM and FOR HIM.....AND HE HAS NEVER SINNED!

So...no matter how you weave it...I ain't buying it..............!