Music in Church?
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K
Yes He fulfills that through us following the two greatest commands;
[h=1]Matthew 22:37-40[/h]37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and great commandment.39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
Who's house do you suppose David comes? if you said Judah you would be correct, now see here:
Hebrews 8:7-9 (NKJV)
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD.
Now, under the new covenant, show me where it says we can worship God with musical instruments, David and his house of Judah's covenant is over... show me in the new one anything commanded other than to "sing"
Hebrews 8:7-9 (NKJV)
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD.
Now, under the new covenant, show me where it says we can worship God with musical instruments, David and his house of Judah's covenant is over... show me in the new one anything commanded other than to "sing"
W
Scripture says if we have the Spirit of God dwelling in us , then ,we are a law unto ourselves. It being written in our hearts.There for by the Spirit of God dwelling in me, I declare it OK, to worship with all your heart soul and physical stength,to the Maker of heaven and earth, the creator of all things both stringed and unstung! Do you tap your feet when you get excited in singing to the lord?? Just wondering....that would be awful close to playing a drum and might need further inquiry by the inquisition.
K
Yes I know that scripture, but how was the old covenant found with fault.
It was not the Psalms, and prophetic books, it was because of the mosaic laws that could not forgive and save people through animal sacrifices. The Lord came to give His one time perfect sacrifice for remission of sins.
Romans 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Mans flesh was weak and the sacrifices could not give them remission of sins, so how do we now enter into heaven by receiving His blood to cover us and cleanse us from those unrighteousness;
[h=1]Hebrews 10:19-25[/h]19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
( The first part here consist of repentance and baptism. )
23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promisedis faithful. 24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
( This next part talks about confession, and it even says to stir up good works. )
Wow, we are told to stir up good works to be done. That makes me wonder about all of these who constantly argue and debate when works is mentioned. For we are told to stir up, and in others told to pursue works of righteousness.
Hold on, lets stop right here for a minute, man has always been under law from day one, we had what some call the patriarchal law, some claim this law was the law before the mosaic law, but think for a minute...
In the exodus before ever reaching Sinai Moses gave the people the command to keep the passover, was Moses forcing a situation of spiritual adultery? having the Jews commit spiritual adultery keeping two laws?, at what point were those Jews told not to keep the patriarchal law and to keep the law given at Sinai?, they weren't.
The Law Paul and our Lord referred to was the Law before Christ otherwise Moses caused the Jews to commit spiritual adultery keeping two laws.
Now lets look at what our Lord taught when Matthew had a feast on a day that the Jews fasted, Jesus gave three analogy's to deal with it the first the mourning of the children of the bridechamber:
Matthew 9:14-15 (KJV)
14 Then came to him the disciples of John, saying, Why do we and the Pharisees fast oft, but thy disciples fast not? 15 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast.
the second, the new patch on old cloth:
Matthew 9:16 (KJV)
16 No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse.
the third new wine in old wineskin:
Matthew 9:17 (KJV)
17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
These three examples are the Lord teaching while He is yet with us, there is no reason to mourn, once he is gone they then will be saddened and have reason to fast, the New Law that the Christ brings like a new patch cannot be used to patch the old law (patriarch/mosaic law they were one, no spiritual adultery introduced by Moses). If the Christ put the New Law in the Old Law, like Old wineskin would burst with new wine the Old Law could not contain it...
This is why a new High Priest was needed, and with a new High Priest, was of necessity a new law...
Now if we try to obey the Old law (old testament, patriarchal/Mosaic) , and the New law (new testament, Law of Christ) we have spiritual adultery, to play instrumental music during worship, or any other form of worship used under the old law (Patriarch/Mosaic) that was not brought forward by Christ and his Holy Spirit guided Apostles is spiritual adultery...
We are told to "sing", now produce the command in the new law that says we can play mechanical musical instruments.
In the exodus before ever reaching Sinai Moses gave the people the command to keep the passover, was Moses forcing a situation of spiritual adultery? having the Jews commit spiritual adultery keeping two laws?, at what point were those Jews told not to keep the patriarchal law and to keep the law given at Sinai?, they weren't.
The Law Paul and our Lord referred to was the Law before Christ otherwise Moses caused the Jews to commit spiritual adultery keeping two laws.
Now lets look at what our Lord taught when Matthew had a feast on a day that the Jews fasted, Jesus gave three analogy's to deal with it the first the mourning of the children of the bridechamber:
Matthew 9:14-15 (KJV)
14 Then came to him the disciples of John, saying, Why do we and the Pharisees fast oft, but thy disciples fast not? 15 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast.
the second, the new patch on old cloth:
Matthew 9:16 (KJV)
16 No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse.
the third new wine in old wineskin:
Matthew 9:17 (KJV)
17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
These three examples are the Lord teaching while He is yet with us, there is no reason to mourn, once he is gone they then will be saddened and have reason to fast, the New Law that the Christ brings like a new patch cannot be used to patch the old law (patriarch/mosaic law they were one, no spiritual adultery introduced by Moses). If the Christ put the New Law in the Old Law, like Old wineskin would burst with new wine the Old Law could not contain it...
This is why a new High Priest was needed, and with a new High Priest, was of necessity a new law...
Now if we try to obey the Old law (old testament, patriarchal/Mosaic) , and the New law (new testament, Law of Christ) we have spiritual adultery, to play instrumental music during worship, or any other form of worship used under the old law (Patriarch/Mosaic) that was not brought forward by Christ and his Holy Spirit guided Apostles is spiritual adultery...
We are told to "sing", now produce the command in the new law that says we can play mechanical musical instruments.
I rarely post in this forum and your petty attempt at attacking is more sad that laughable. I never asked you to believe as I do. I've never asked anyone to believe as I do. It does seem that you're here more for an argument than a discussion though. I made ONE post and you're still quoting it. Yet, you claim you stopped reading my posts months ago. Of course, most people have stopped reading my posts since I no longer frequent this site. If you want to spark an argument you may want to waste your time on someone else who is more active in the forums than I am.
I quoted new testament scripture, it is Christ that took us out from under the OT, it is Christ that put us under the NT, the only parts of the OT that we use for worship are what Christ took from the OT and placed into the NT...
Now show me where He did that with instrumental music without forcing spiritual adultery.
Now show me where He did that with instrumental music without forcing spiritual adultery.
S
There is no Biblical principle to back up the banning of instruments. You are looking at Scripture from the wrong side. The Old Covenant is obsolete, but not the entire Old Testement. Why not just look at the Word as a whole?
There are principles that show what is and isn't appropriate. Instruments are not viewed as inappropriate in any context, but always as a good thing. What is your Biblical principle for the banning of instruments?
It's not about lack of authorization, because such a phrase or thought is not Biblical. We have no lack for authority in Christ, and are given authority unto all things, as it say "all things are permissible". What you have to deal with is not authority, but Biblical principle. Does the Bible view this as sin, or as righteous?
No where does the Bible say music is a distraction, or selfish, or humanistic, or worldly, or anything negative at all,
but always refers to it in a positive manner, as glorifying to God.
There are principles that show what is and isn't appropriate. Instruments are not viewed as inappropriate in any context, but always as a good thing. What is your Biblical principle for the banning of instruments?
It's not about lack of authorization, because such a phrase or thought is not Biblical. We have no lack for authority in Christ, and are given authority unto all things, as it say "all things are permissible". What you have to deal with is not authority, but Biblical principle. Does the Bible view this as sin, or as righteous?
No where does the Bible say music is a distraction, or selfish, or humanistic, or worldly, or anything negative at all,
but always refers to it in a positive manner, as glorifying to God.
S
We are under a New Covenant, but are with the same testimony as the Old Testement saints. This is the same merciful, just, loving, gracious God of the OT. The Law stands firm, as it still condemns those who are not in Christ, and it is also still useful to the NT Church, as we have tried to explain to you before.
To say that instrumental music is spiritual adultery is ridiculous, and you know it. How could an expression of love for the One True God, done with sincere heart, possibly be spiritual adultery? Does a congregation who sings alongside a guitar now become legalistic works based Christians?
How can you not seperate works and mandates from expression of faith and love?
If you cannot express your love and faith for God without a specific command, then you have no love or faith to express. We do not serve Him in order to fulfill commands and authorizations, but fulfill all of it by serving.
To say that instrumental music is spiritual adultery is ridiculous, and you know it. How could an expression of love for the One True God, done with sincere heart, possibly be spiritual adultery? Does a congregation who sings alongside a guitar now become legalistic works based Christians?
How can you not seperate works and mandates from expression of faith and love?
If you cannot express your love and faith for God without a specific command, then you have no love or faith to express. We do not serve Him in order to fulfill commands and authorizations, but fulfill all of it by serving.
K
Produce one scripture that says we can't, just one that is all we have been asking for.
There is not one, unless you read more into what is not there, which is what you are constantly doing.
The one's you keep posting over and over again do not say they can't be used, this is your interpretation to make them say that. But is not what the scriptures actually say, and I did show how the Greek word in one of them means to tap, beat, strum, or pluck. Which the latter stands for a stringed instrument.
Now you are talking about the law as if I said we had to follow the old mosaic laws, I never said that.
What I said is the Psalms and prophetic books of the OT are not the laws, those are separate books from the Torah.
What we have is God's moral laws that is written in our hearts, that we are to follow and not a written set of ordinances that was in the mosaic laws.
Playing instruments in worship was not a mosaic law, so you trying to interject it into the laws is a mute point again.
Please stop trying to interject things in scripture where they do not belong, and trying to make more ordinances for believers to follow. We do not answer to ordinances, we answer to the Holy Spirit and the moral laws of God.
So when you cannot defend your POV, you resort to demanding others to defend it for you?
If you cannot show a thus sayeth the Lord, it should not be done, else you are a will worshiper, worshiping God per your will, not His.
Listen to what you say "unless you read more into", I am saying go by exactly what you read! it says "sing", I am asking you to show me where it says more... it is you adding to scripture.
I have not argued otherwise, I have not said once that "Psallo" does not mean to pluck the string of an instrument, in fact, Psallo could mean to pluck even a string of a tool such as a carpenters string, I said like "Baptizo" does not carry with it what the instrument one is baptized in so must be derived from its context, so also Psallo must too be defined by context, Paul in those verses makes the object Psallo'd, the heart.
the Law and the Prophets ARE that which was taken out of the way, not destroyed, but no longer under... to use the Mosaic Law and the Law of Christ, or to use the Patriarch Law (Prophets) and the Law of Christ, or to use the Law of Christ with anything other than the Law of Christ for "worship" to "worship" they way they were commanded in any other law other than the Law of Christ, is "Spiritual Adultery"...
Now all you have to do is show me under the Law of Christ where anyone under the Law of Christ, or anywhere where the Law of Christ commanded or had been shown to use, mechanical musical instruments... so as not to fill your own bellies or be a will worshiper.
If you cannot show a thus sayeth the Lord, it should not be done, else you are a will worshiper, worshiping God per your will, not His.
Listen to what you say "unless you read more into", I am saying go by exactly what you read! it says "sing", I am asking you to show me where it says more... it is you adding to scripture.
I have not argued otherwise, I have not said once that "Psallo" does not mean to pluck the string of an instrument, in fact, Psallo could mean to pluck even a string of a tool such as a carpenters string, I said like "Baptizo" does not carry with it what the instrument one is baptized in so must be derived from its context, so also Psallo must too be defined by context, Paul in those verses makes the object Psallo'd, the heart.
the Law and the Prophets ARE that which was taken out of the way, not destroyed, but no longer under... to use the Mosaic Law and the Law of Christ, or to use the Patriarch Law (Prophets) and the Law of Christ, or to use the Law of Christ with anything other than the Law of Christ for "worship" to "worship" they way they were commanded in any other law other than the Law of Christ, is "Spiritual Adultery"...
Now all you have to do is show me under the Law of Christ where anyone under the Law of Christ, or anywhere where the Law of Christ commanded or had been shown to use, mechanical musical instruments... so as not to fill your own bellies or be a will worshiper.
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K
I have not asked anybody to do anything for me on this subject.
What I said is produce one scripture that says instruments have been condemned.
You say produce one scripture that says, I the Lord tell you to.........
Well that can easily be reversed because you can not produce one that says, I the Lord tell you not to.............
Then you say you have not debated about psallo, but in a way you have because you only mention half the definition in response and then you say carpenter string. The actual Greek history was usage of a stringed instrument, which in the past and now could be a harp, guitar, violin, bass, chello, and such.
Wrong the law and the prophets was not taken out of the way, they are fulfilled and established from the Lord through us when we follow the two Greatest Commands; To love Him with all our heart, soul, and mind, and love are neighbor as ourselves.
It is the hand written ordinances of the mosaic law that was blotted out. ( Colossians 2:14 )
The morals of God's law is established in us because He wrote them in our heart and our mind.
You give the menu at a fast food restaurant and he/she taking your order more reverence than the word of God, do you when ordering a "Big Mack" at McDonald's go down the list of the "what you don't wants" or do you say I want a Big Mack, therefore automatically excluding all the "what you don't wants"... why do you expect more of God?
I said I have not argued that "Psallo" does not means to pluck the string of an instrument, I said it could be guitar, and it can be that of a carpenter string etc..., it is an instrument with a string that is plucked and has been used as such in the Greek
The Greek playwright, used the word of “plucking hair” (Persae, p. 1062). Euripides (480-460 B.C.?), another Greek writer, spoke of “twanging” the bowstring (Bacchae, p. 784). Psallo was used of “twitching” the carpenter’s line so as to leave a mark (Anthologia Palatine, 6.103))
I have not denied the fact that Psallo means to pluck or twang the string of an instrument, but what I have said is like the Greek word "Baptizo" does not define what instrument is used to "Baptize" and must be found in the context, so too is the Greek word "Psallo" used, it does not say what the instrument who's string is "twanged", but must be found in the context, Paul metaphorically used the "heart" as the instrument played. (now you will probably say the heart cannot be played, if so you must hold that as fact and say it cannot be written to either (Heb 8:10))
Animal sacrifice goes back almost to creation, so why do you not argue that animal sacrifice was "taken out of the way" or "nailed to the cross"? because animal sacrifice does not make you feel good...
It was the "Ordinance's" that were contrary to us that was taken away, if the Patriarch Laws (Prophets) were not contrary, why have the stones? it was the "Ordinance's, the Law AND the Prophets" that were taken out of the way, not destroyed, but no longer a covenant, we are now "under" a "new covenant"...
Now without drawing on commands from the "Old Covenant, the Law and Prophets", show in the "New Covenant, of which we are now under" where anything other than "sing" is commanded, or fall to committing spiritual adultery following two covenants.
I said I have not argued that "Psallo" does not means to pluck the string of an instrument, I said it could be guitar, and it can be that of a carpenter string etc..., it is an instrument with a string that is plucked and has been used as such in the Greek
The Greek playwright, used the word of “plucking hair” (Persae, p. 1062). Euripides (480-460 B.C.?), another Greek writer, spoke of “twanging” the bowstring (Bacchae, p. 784). Psallo was used of “twitching” the carpenter’s line so as to leave a mark (Anthologia Palatine, 6.103))
I have not denied the fact that Psallo means to pluck or twang the string of an instrument, but what I have said is like the Greek word "Baptizo" does not define what instrument is used to "Baptize" and must be found in the context, so too is the Greek word "Psallo" used, it does not say what the instrument who's string is "twanged", but must be found in the context, Paul metaphorically used the "heart" as the instrument played. (now you will probably say the heart cannot be played, if so you must hold that as fact and say it cannot be written to either (Heb 8:10))
Animal sacrifice goes back almost to creation, so why do you not argue that animal sacrifice was "taken out of the way" or "nailed to the cross"? because animal sacrifice does not make you feel good...
It was the "Ordinance's" that were contrary to us that was taken away, if the Patriarch Laws (Prophets) were not contrary, why have the stones? it was the "Ordinance's, the Law AND the Prophets" that were taken out of the way, not destroyed, but no longer a covenant, we are now "under" a "new covenant"...
Now without drawing on commands from the "Old Covenant, the Law and Prophets", show in the "New Covenant, of which we are now under" where anything other than "sing" is commanded, or fall to committing spiritual adultery following two covenants.
