Mysticism & righteousness

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miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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#81
It is always possible to pick a theological battle across almost every doctrine you like.

Sounds like you guys want a war. Why is that?
Because the SPIRIT is THE WITNESS who testifies with our spirit that we are the children of GOD...and if HIS CHILDREN...well then heirs to the PROMISE which is ours in CHRIST JESUS

And we KNOW this that ALL GOD'S PROMISES are AMEN to those who are in CHRIST JESUS who walk not after the flesh, but after the deeds and dictates of THE SPIRIT which HE has caused to live in us.

See Romans 8
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
588
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#82
Do you mean this or I do not agree with this because...
I have no opinion on circumcision and its implications etc.

It is true if Abraham has disobeyed God, that is sin and the relationship would have been broken.
So you statement is wrong, even at its simplest level. Sounds like you want to be the authority here.
Nothing really works like that and not with God.
You don't?
You should as it signified an EIGHTH DAY...A NEW CREATION...marked and covenanted to GOD.
Therefore it is VERY SIGNIFICANT.

Well...not the fleshly one...but what it SPIRITUALLY MEANT...
For HIS WORDS are SPIRIT and EVER AND ALWAYS WERE SPIRIT.
 
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TonyJay

Guest
#83
This its completely incorrect.
Romans 2:17-29 completely debunks the myth of physical circumcision saving anyone.
Romans 3 in totality completely debunks any possibility of salvation by works or through the law.
vs 20 is an excellent summary of what the law can do and what it cannot do.
And Romans chapter 4 in its totality explains why Abraham was justified by faith and why circumcision is nothing.
vs 9-12 specifically deals with what circumcision was, and what it was not.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#84
The term "mystically" scripturally means = spiritual. The "application" of that term in some people's minds is where things go AWOL.

Here is a scripture that talks about "mystically" which the Greek word means "spiritually".

Revelation 11:8 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

[FONT="Galatia Sil" !important]πνευματικῶς[/FONT] [FONT="Gentium" !important]pneumatikōs[/FONT] adv - Spiritually.

Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary, The - The Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary – Pi-Rho.

In truth all true Christians are mystics because we are born again spiritually in our inner man created in Christ in righteousness and holiness. This is a complete mystery to the natural mind of man.


The natural mind of man cannot understand spiritual things, so to them - being mystic has really been changed to be a bad term and unfortunately it is used in that context too - as a derogatory term to "label" people and thus marginalize their beliefs in Christ only for salvation which is by grace through faith in Christ's finished work.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#85
This its completely incorrect.
Romans 2:17-29 completely debunks the myth of physical circumcision saving anyone.
Romans 3 in totality completely debunks any possibility of salvation by works or through the law.
vs 20 is an excellent summary of what the law can do and what it cannot do.
To deny that salvation came into being because Abraham obeyed the command of physical circumcision is simply a denial of reality.
 
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TonyJay

Guest
#86
Do you mean this or I do not agree with this because...
I have no opinion on circumcision and its implications etc.

It is true if Abraham has disobeyed God, that is sin and the relationship would have been broken.
So you statement is wrong, even at its simplest level. Sounds like you want to be the authority here.
Nothing really works like that and not with God.
Yes!
But not on my own authority - just read the passages indicated - it is simple English.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#87
mysticism definition -belief that union with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or the spiritual apprehension of knowledge inaccessible to the intellect, may be attained through contemplation and self-surrender.

John 17

20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

why is mysticism thought to be heresy when it sounds to be exactly what Jesus was teaching.
 
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TonyJay

Guest
#88
To deny that salvation came into being because Abraham obeyed the command of physical circumcision is simply a denial of reality.
Are you prepared to read the passages I highlighted?
Apparently Paul is denying reality according to you.
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
#89
HIS intention is that we rest in THE TRUTH of HIS SON and do not "go out" from HIM.
There is a difference between those who REMAIN IN HIM and those who "go out"...and that difference will be clearly made manifest when "darkness comes"....

Then will it be made evident those who knew their GOD and those who simply did lip service to HIS NAME...
I agree the created thread is just a personal lip service saying a dispute of people when it's his dispute. If he was so convicted he would of said my dispute. i don't think anybody should boldly use a statement as (these are the words of God) useless its separate from a personal statement it's better not to use that statement and just post without it. There's nothing wrong with having your own words before or after bible verses but to make a bold statement at the end it's like saying the OP words are equal to scripture words. Sugar coat it all you want but who does that make such bold statement like that.
 
Jul 4, 2015
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#90
Again HeRoseFromTheDead you are teaching Salvation by Works.

You are totally wrong on this point HeRoseFromTheDead.

Ephesians 2:8,9
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; [SUP]9 [/SUP]not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

We receive Salvation by the Grace of God and its not as a results of works like you teach.

Again you teach the false doctrines of the Catholic Church.

Abraham was Justified by his Faith, not by any works he had done. Circumcision was done as a sign he walked with God. Just like us today being Baptized. Baptism is a sign we walk with God.

Circumcision and Baptism does not save a person!

Will you ever accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior and walk with Him? Or will you continue to teach the lies of your church?
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#91
A dispute has arisen among people who appear to be the same in faith but are not.

The mystic

An encounter with God changes your heart. You are given a new heart born into his Kingdom and
can never leave. No matter what you do you are safe.
The ethic is the encounter, and then subsequent encounters which change you, not of your will
but some strange force which is not interlectual, or chosen, or definable.

Righteousness

God is righteous, holy, just, loving, the source of all.
We as sinners who repent of our sins, trust on Christ for the forgiveness of sins, are empowered
through following and love in our hearts to walk righteously. It is a hard battle to transformation
but we come out holy, righteous, redeemed people.
This is the world of choice and will, of repentance and confession, getting yourself right with God.

Biblical detail is best laid out be Ezekiel

But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die.

None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live.

Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
Ezek 18:21-23

But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live?

None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered.

Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.
Ezek 18:24

The road is simple. Repent and walk in righteousness to gain life with Christ.
Walk in sin and face judgement.

It is through faith in the forgiveness offered in the Cross that we gain forgiveness so we can
walk in righteousness, consciously, choosing ourselves, not imputed, or adopted, holy living.

There are those who say if you taste of God, you are eternal and will never face judgement.

This is heresy and mysticism and a different faith.

The heretics use hyper-legalism to say all the prophets were lost, the Jews were lost and only after
the cross is the kingdom real. They are forever bounded in invented sin, which they can never
be free from so without imputed righteousness they are dead. Problem is in heaven these same
sins will occur, which is impossible for them to be sins.

So I call you as Jesus did, repent of your sins as God has defined and walk in righteousness,
there is no other way to salvation.

Mysticism can take christian language, but it shows itself when the real differences are talked
about, like repentance, holiness, purity, integrity, honesty, truth. They regard themselves
constant sinners daily, hourly, by the minute. Invented sins, thoughts, intentions, hopes,
fears, passing fancies. Rather than temptations or passing feelings, these are sins.

And they make us to be evil, legalists, rule makers, self justifiers, hyprocrites who live in sin
but ignore it. They alone are truly born again with the mystical new perfect heart dwelling
in a sinful body. Their aspiration is to dwell in their new mystical being and leave the rest
behind.

There are similar tensions in christian life, with emotional impulses, setting order and appropriatness
in ones own heart, but it is accepting our bodies as holy vessels and being the redeemed righteous
bride of Christ, fully acceptable as His loving holy people is what we are today, in the here and now.

This is the word of the Lord.
You words are confusing and how you define terms are not the commonly accepted use.

For example your definition of mystic could describe what it means to be born again. The definition of righteous is what It means to be lead by the Holy Spirit.


There is a heresy called mysticism that has people who claim to be Christian to be casting spell to gain things like new cars, etc.

However your definitions are so vague and point to hidden accusations to members of this site, I do not find it edifying.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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#92
Mysticism is not spirituality

Spirituality is about focusing on people and love, good works and meeting the needs around you.
Mysticism focuses of the supernatural and desires to spend all the time in a place other than here.

The mystics will always want to equate the two, but Jesus was clear. Our focus is on the here and now, living as people of God, not wanting fortune tails of how the future will turn out from a "prophet" in a church.

But for many this is now the new church, the new experience, the new high. Other spiritual authorities are more important than Gods word.

But at least the mystics accept the label. Small steps of progress, one step at a time.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#93
mysticism definition -belief that union with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or the spiritual apprehension of knowledge inaccessible to the intellect, may be attained through contemplation and self-surrender.

why is mysticism thought to be heresy when it sounds to be exactly what Jesus was teaching.
Because mystic-type doctrines hold that salvation is achieved simply by knowing something (an idea, some knowledge, one's true spiritual identity, etc.), and obedience to commandments is not at all necessary (actually, counterproductive in some instances.).

Scripture is clear that salvation is through knowing GOD, which comes about through doing his word (commandments).
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#94
From PeterJens"
This is much similarity in mystical thought and christian thought.

The key difference is judgement, and what sin actually is. A mystical union does not make you
righteous or saved. You are saved because you have become a righteous follower of Christ.
Past sins forgiven and you do not sin. Sin here is blatant breaking of relationships, damage
done, people and God hurt. This is not airy fairy I got a little annoyed, or I borrowed a pen,
or I was rude to someone. This is intentional evil, fantisied hatred, murder, theft. It is about
love in the heart seeing need and meeting it. It is about becoming a light in the darkness,
reaching out to the lonely, the weak, the poor, the destitute and not caring for success or
the world.

These are the heart beat of the church for thousands of years. It is what we died for, it is
the light that wakes us in the morning and to which we go to bed at night. It is our lifeblood
that we take to our graves and to the gates of heaven. It is how heaven touches earth"

I don't think anyone here has objections to those words above.

The rest I guess you are pointing out teachings from mystics in the pulpit?
 
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Ariel82

Guest
#95
Mysticism is not spirituality

Spirituality is about focusing on people and love, good works and meeting the needs around you.
Mysticism focuses of the supernatural and desires to spend all the time in a place other than here.

The mystics will always want to equate the two, but Jesus was clear. Our focus is on the here and now, living as people of God, not wanting fortune tails of how the future will turn out from a "prophet" in a church.

But for many this is now the new church, the new experience, the new high. Other spiritual authorities are more important than Gods word.

But at least the mystics accept the label. Small steps of progress, one step at a time.
I see but you have to be more specific because your first post could easily define spirituality as much as mysticism...just go back and read it and you will see what I am referring to.

Mystics do point to the "spiritual realm" and ignore the people around them in need.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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#96
You words are confusing and how you define terms are not the commonly accepted use.
For example your definition of mystic could describe what it means to be born again. The definition of righteous is what It means to be lead by the Holy Spirit.
There is a heresy called mysticism that has people who claim to be Christian to be casting spell to gain things like new cars, etc.
However your definitions are so vague and point to hidden accusations to members of this site, I do not find it edifying.
Ariel - The focus I am using is introducing the word mysticism into the discussion. I was unaware of the group you describe. And yes versions of being born again are mystical. But I think that is the problem. Jesus introduced the term as well as the seed and the sower so nothing is that clear. How can a born again believer, if they have a new heart, loose it again?

It is a conceptual divide that people have closed with a if I say ask God for a new heart, you ask and now you have it eternally. It is like buying goods in a shop. Once it becomes turning your current heart into a new heart, it is no so solid and is reversable, not so mystical, though still a spiritual work of God.

Now depending on your emphasis you can come up with different conclusions. I lean towards transformation, hyper-grace the mystical. Each model has its consequences. I am pointing towards a whole.

And you maybe surprised, most have no problem with better clarity, they know then who are their friends etc.
All new groups go through this phase.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#97
You words are confusing and how you define terms are not the commonly accepted use.

For example your definition of mystic could describe what it means to be born again. The definition of righteous is what It means to be lead by the Holy Spirit.


There is a heresy called mysticism that has people who claim to be Christian to be casting spell to gain things like new cars, etc.

However your definitions are so vague and point to hidden accusations to members of this site, I do not find it edifying.
i agree that its wrong to channel "spirits" cast spells to gain material wealth. i also believe anyone with common sense can see this.

its wrong to judge someone or worse, call them a heretic just because they call them self a mystic or their seeking a deeper, "mystic" experience.

are we really going to claim that when the Apostles witnessed first hand the things Jesus did, that it was not a mystical experience?
 
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Ariel82

Guest
#98
The heart can still die in people with heart transplants.

Is that what you are getting at?
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
588
113
#99
You words are confusing and how you define terms are not the commonly accepted use.

For example your definition of mystic could describe what it means to be born again. The definition of righteous is what It means to be lead by the Holy Spirit.


There is a heresy called mysticism that has people who claim to be Christian to be casting spell to gain things like new cars, etc.

However your definitions are so vague and point to hidden accusations to members of this site, I do not find it edifying.


And there in lies the problem...the truth that there is a spiritual realm and men can delve into a spiritual realm without even knowing THE TRUTH of GOD and therefore not able to discern the TRUTH/SPIRIT/VOICE of GOD from the spirits of that wrong and murderous and lying "father"...

Casting spells to gain false treasure in this world!!!
As if this is even a work of GOD to begin with!
 
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Ariel82

Guest
i agree that its wrong to channel "spirits" cast spells to gain material wealth. i also believe anyone with common sense can see this.

its wrong to judge someone or worse, call them a heretic just because they call them self a mystic or their seeking a deeper, "mystic" experience.

are you really going to claim that when the Apostles witnessed first hand the things Jesus did, that it was not a mystical experience?
Like I told Peter I dont like the word mystic, I would call it spiritual.

Mystic makes me think,of magic which is when,humans try and control the spiritual realm for their own gain.