Name It and Claim It

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wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
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1. Can you find any promises guaranteeing they won't or can't have a sick or disease free life?
2. Does that mean no one else is able or allowed to find and teach such to believers?
3. Jesus said, "According to your faith be it done unto you." Is that a non-instruction?
4. Wasn't it wonderful of God to show Paul how to get delivered from the devil's work in his flesh? God did not tell Paul he had to keep the thorn in his flesh, but how to get rid of it. You don't ask God to get rid of the devil for you, you command the devil to leave in Jesus' name, and it will go. We can't do it because we are too weak, but God's power is used in our weakness and inability to fight against an enemy we cannot see or touch.
It is the same thing with salvation as it was for Paul with the demon. God's grace is sufficient for us to get saved as it was for Paul to get delivered from the devil's messanger.
We are too weak, and simply unable to save ourselves, so God, in His grace and mercies, has provided a way for us to receive salvation. The same was available for Paul. God's grace was sufficient to deliver Paul from the devil's pawn, if he took authority over it, through the name of Jesus.
That is a promise of God to His children.
5. If it was a man made doctrine, I wouldn't believe it, but I got these truths straight from the bible.
If your faith was that there is no hell that awaits the unbelievers, then is it a bad thing to destroy a lie?
I understand why most don't listen to the things I write. It's because, in your eyes and many others, I am a evil person teaching heresies, lie, and doctrines of the devil. I don't listen to all of you, for that same reason.
You, on the other hand, are more innocent because of your ignorance of scripture. But because you listen to other vilify me, you have turned me off, so to speak.
6. You just don't understand what is written. If you did, and if you weren't biased against what is written in the bible, the same as that which you say you believe, you would agree with at least some of the things I have written, because everything I have written is straight from scripture.
Again, you put time and era restraints on scripture, and in so doing, strip them of all power to affect your life today, and of all truth.
If they haven't been fulfilled by Jesus' death and resurrection, then they are still in effect today.
Thou shalt not murder, has not been fulfilled in Jesus' death on the cross. So if we murder someone, our act is seen as sin, and the law of sowing and reaping will go into effect. Even against a child of God.
The point is, though the law was written thousands of years ago, we are called to fulfill it in our lives. God doesn't change. What was evil in the days of Moses, is still evil today.
And so it is with the promises concerning WOF. They didn't cease to be true just because they were spoken to the Jews almost 2000 years ago. The laws of faith apply to us today as it did to Abraham thousands of years ago.
But without faith, to all them that don't believe or have refused the knowledge of God's word, yeah, they get sick and die of the same. In God's world, ignorance is not bliss, nor does it save you from the devil or his work. You know, the thing Jesus came to destroy.
Well, to
To 1.: I dont Need to Search. Your have to Show me, that this was taught in the bible.
To 2. : of course you can Teach this. But it not Sounds with that what bible teaches. Its man wisedome.
To3.: its out of context and has nothing to do with the promises of a sick and deseases free life.
To 4.: Nowhere is written, that he got free from it.
To 5.:Even JW claimes to have a biblical Doctrine.
To 5+ 6.: you attack my Person, because I dont believe your Doctrine. This is typical.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
3,533
618
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Can you give two examples of this living faith or works of faith you have done, that was pleasing to God?
Matthew 25
44 “Then those people will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty? When did we see you without a place to stay? Or when did we see you without clothes or sick or in prison? When did we see any of this and not help you?’

45 “The king will answer, ‘The truth is, anything you refused to do for any of my people here, you refused to do for me.’
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
2,971
145
63



Romans 10 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
10 Brothers and sisters, what I want most is for all the people of Israel to be saved. That is my prayer to God. 2 I can say this about them: They really try hard to follow God, but they don’t know the right way. 3 They did not know the way that God makes people right with him. And they tried to make themselves right in their own way. So they did not accept God’s way of making people right. 4 Christ ended the law so that everyone who believes in him is made right with God.

5 Moses writes about being made right by following the law. He says, “The person who obeys these laws is the one who will have life through them.”[a] 6 But this is what the Scriptures say about being made right through faith: “Don’t say to yourself, ‘Who will go up into heaven?’” (This means “Who will go up to heaven to get Christ and bring him down to earth?”) 7 “And don’t say, ‘Who will go down into the world below?’” (This means “Who will go down to get Christ and bring him up from death?”)

8 This is what the Scripture says: “God’s teaching is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart.” It is the teaching of faith that we tell people. 9 If you openly say, “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from death, you will be saved. 10 Yes, we believe in Jesus deep in our hearts, and so we are made right with God. And we openly say that we believe in him, and so we are saved.

11 Yes, the Scriptures say, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be disappointed.”[c] 12 It says this because there is no difference between those who are Jews and those who are not. The same Lord is the Lord of all people. And he richly blesses everyone who looks to him for help. 13 Yes, “everyone who trusts in the Lord[d] will be saved.”[e]

14 But before people can pray to the Lord for help, they must believe in him. And before they can believe in the Lord, they must hear about him. And for anyone to hear about the Lord, someone must tell them. 15 And before anyone can go and tell them, they must be sent. As the Scriptures say, “How wonderful it is to see someone coming to tell good news!”[f]

16 But not all the people accepted that good news. Isaiah said, “Lord, who believed what we told them?”[g] 17 So faith comes from hearing the Good News. And people hear the Good News when someone tells them about Christ.

18 But I ask, “Did those people not hear the Good News?” Yes, they heard—as the Scriptures say,

“Their voices went out all around the world.
Their words went everywhere in the world.”

19 Again I ask, “Did the people of Israel not understand?” Yes, they did understand. First, Moses says this for God:

“I will use those who are not really a nation to make you jealous.
I will use a nation that does not understand to make you angry.”

20 Then Isaiah is bold enough to say this for God:

“The people who were not looking for me—
they are the ones who found me.
I made myself known to those who did not ask for me.”

21 But about the people of Israel God says,

“All day long I stood ready to accept those people,
but they are stubborn and refuse to obey me.”
We all know what the context of those verses in Romans was about, but it still doesn't take away from the fact that it teaches HOW WOF works.
What Paul used for salvation, has to work the same for healing and deliverance, because it requires the same word of faith as that which is used for people's salvation.
So I'm not taking anything out of context. I'm simply using the Paul's teaching of how to receive salvation and applying it to other situations and circumstances.
It's not what the text is about, but how it works for one to get saved.
And example of taking something out of context would be;

Mar 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. [So long as it is the will of God.]

Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
[So long as it is the will of God.]


Mat 21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
Mat 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
[So long as it is the will of God.]

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. [So long as it is the will of God.]

That, my friend, is taking something out of context and perverting it, by twisting the meaning. It also removes one's ability to have ANY faith in God or His promises.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
3,533
618
113
Go to the nearest hospital, then, and heal everyone. Better yet, go to every hospital in the world and heal everyone. What? You won't? I'm not surprised.
Matthew 6:9-18 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
9 So this is how you should pray:

‘Our Father in heaven,
we pray that your name will always be kept holy.
10 We pray that your kingdom will come—
that what you want will be done here on earth, the same as in heaven.
11 Give us the food we need for today.
12 Forgive our sins,
just as we have forgiven those who did wrong to us.
13 Don’t let us be tempted,
but save us from the Evil One.’[a]

14 Yes, if you forgive others for the wrongs they do to you, then your Father in heaven will also forgive your wrongs. 15 But if you don’t forgive others, then your Father in heaven will not forgive the wrongs you do.

Jesus Teaches About Fasting
16 “When you fast, don’t make yourselves look sad like the hypocrites. They put a look of suffering on their faces so that people will see they are fasting. The truth is, that’s all the reward they will get. 17 So when you fast, wash your face and make yourself look nice. 18 Then no one will know you are fasting, except your Father, who is with you even in private. He can see what is done in private, and he will reward you.

The text is misapplied, does not relate to healing.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
3,533
618
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We all know what the context of those verses in Romans was about, but it still doesn't take away from the fact that it teaches HOW WOF works.
What Paul used for salvation, has to work the same for healing and deliverance, because it requires the same word of faith as that which is used for people's salvation.
So I'm not taking anything out of context. I'm simply using the Paul's teaching of how to receive salvation and applying it to other situations and circumstances.
It's not what the text is about, but how it works for one to get saved.
And example of taking something out of context would be;

Mar 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. [So long as it is the will of God.]

Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
[So long as it is the will of God.]


Mat 21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
Mat 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
[So long as it is the will of God.]

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. [So long as it is the will of God.]

That, my friend, is taking something out of context and perverting it, by twisting the meaning. It also removes one's ability to have ANY faith in God or His promises.

By your poor logic, if one is not healed then they are not saved? The text is not about healing in context.

 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
2,971
145
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To 5+ 6.: you attack my Person, because I dont believe your Doctrine. This is typical.
I did not attack you sir, you just took what I see as fact, personally.
I gave you scripture, put it as simple as I could and still you say it's not scriptural or that I took it out of context.
When studying God's word, you will have to start putting 1+1 together, to get to some of God's deeper truths.
That's all I was getting at.
Jesus' parable would be a good example.
If you just took Jesus' parable as a story, then you are just looking at the surface.
When you start replacing some of the symbols in the parables with real life situations, then you are looking at it a little deeper.
But there is yet another level to which we can dig, to find bigger nuggets, aside from looking at the meaning of each word.
Many add other verses to make what they call, the whole council of God, to help better explain their position on a matter or doctrine.
I didn't go that far but simply used what is written, with a little common sense thinking, and came to a very clear solution.
I'm having a hard time grappling with the fact that so few are able to see something so simple.
You are by far, not the only one who can't see what I'm saying. Many of the intellectual teachers have the same problem.
And the reason why you and the others can't see these simple truths is because it is hidden from you.
It is like looking right at something and not being able to see it.
That has happened to me more than once.
My wife would send me to look for something in the frig, and it would be right in front of me, but because I would looking for some other container, I would completely overlooked it.
She would even laugh while standing beside me saying, "how can you not see that", then reach in and grab the item right in front of me.
 

MadHermit

Junior Member
May 8, 2018
388
144
43
A favorite Name It and Claim It text: "Take delight in the Lord, and He will give you the desires of your heart...But be still before the Lord and wait patiently for Him (Psakn 48:4, 7)."
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
3,533
618
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The Word-faith Controversy: Understanding the Health and Wealth Gospel
Front Cover
Robert M. Bowman
I did not attack you sir, you just took what I see as fact, personally.
I gave you scripture, put it as simple as I could and still you say it's not scriptural or that I took it out of context.
When studying God's word, you will have to start putting 1+1 together, to get to some of God's deeper truths.
That's all I was getting at.
Jesus' parable would be a good example.
If you just took Jesus' parable as a story, then you are just looking at the surface.
When you start replacing some of the symbols in the parables with real life situations, then you are looking at it a little deeper.
But there is yet another level to which we can dig, to find bigger nuggets, aside from looking at the meaning of each word.
Many add other verses to make what they call, the whole council of God, to help better explain their position on a matter or doctrine.
I didn't go that far but simply used what is written, with a little common sense thinking, and came to a very clear solution.
I'm having a hard time grappling with the fact that so few are able to see something so simple.
You are by far, not the only one who can't see what I'm saying. Many of the intellectual teachers have the same problem.
And the reason why you and the others can't see these simple truths is because it is hidden from you.
It is like looking right at something and not being able to see it.
That has happened to me more than once.
My wife would send me to look for something in the frig, and it would be right in front of me, but because I would looking for some other container, I would completely overlooked it.
She would even laugh while standing beside me saying, "how can you not see that", then reach in and grab the item right in front of me.
David Hume wrote a thesis on 1 + 1 = 2 why are you using Man's logic???

We need to remember, that with this type of communication that we do not have all the cues of communication we normally have.

Odds are we don't see word of faith truths because of their teachers use poor interpretation skills, poor application of texts, poor Hermeneutics , read Christian Science theology into the text and so on.

No humans' interpretation today is infallible.
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
2,895
670
113
This is not rocket science sir. This is very simple, and it takes just a little common sense, if you would use it.
I just showed you where I got it from. It doesn't matter if it was taught by the apostles or not, it's right there in red and white.
It's not like faith, where you have to overlook the obvious in the natural.
Think. What would God's will be in heaven for His people?
Would He want you sick, to teach you a lesson, or to show you that He favors some over you and your loved ones, by healing them and not you?
Remember, God is no respecter of persons. He doesn't favor one over the other, so there has to be a logical reason why He does heal some and not others. And what do you think that might be?
Jesus is the one who told us that God's will for His people on earth is the same as it is for His people in heaven.
If His will for those in heaven is to be sick, then that is what His will is for us on earth. If it is not, then it is not for us on earth.
His will isn't different for us here, than it is for them who are in heaven.
Thy will be done on earth AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.
It's not hard to see if you just think about it a little.
I did not attack you sir, you just took what I see as fact, personally.
I gave you scripture, put it as simple as I could and still you say it's not scriptural or that I took it out of context.
When studying God's word, you will have to start putting 1+1 together, to get to some of God's deeper truths.
That's all I was getting at.
Jesus' parable would be a good example.
If you just took Jesus' parable as a story, then you are just looking at the surface.
When you start replacing some of the symbols in the parables with real life situations, then you are looking at it a little deeper.
But there is yet another level to which we can dig, to find bigger nuggets, aside from looking at the meaning of each word.
Many add other verses to make what they call, the whole council of God, to help better explain their position on a matter or doctrine.
I didn't go that far but simply used what is written, with a little common sense thinking, and came to a very clear solution.
I'm having a hard time grappling with the fact that so few are able to see something so simple.
You are by far, not the only one who can't see what I'm saying. Many of the intellectual teachers have the same problem.
And the reason why you and the others can't see these simple truths is because it is hidden from you.
It is like looking right at something and not being able to see it.
That has happened to me more than once.
My wife would send me to look for something in the frig, and it would be right in front of me, but because I would looking for some other container, I would completely overlooked it.
She would even laugh while standing beside me saying, "how can you not see that", then reach in and grab the item right in front of me.
I do understand what you are saying. But i just cant find this teaching in the bible.
And as I that before, even Cults like JW taking the bible for to defend their Doctrine. to Quote the bible is no Proof that the Doctrine is biblical.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,392
2,548
113
In some weird way, I actually enjoyed your post.
If you would give me the opportunity, I would be happy to show you, through scripture, what was given to me.
I ask because it's a lot of scripture to go through before I get to the trinity.
I didn't change anything about the triune God we serve, as you suppose. I only added the body part, which is not taught by anyone.
And even though you have already label me as a heretic, no change from before, which is completely understandable, as far as where you're coming from, and the fact that you won't consider what I'm writing might have the slightest hint of truth to it, I will write it anyway, just to show you what was given to me, and how it was presented, as best I can.

Don't bother posting Scriptures for me. Then I would feel obligated to refute every single one of them, using context and hermeneutics, as well as the original languages.

Since you do not even understand the bare basics, like the difference between "being" and "person," which I would hazard a guess that most people in this forum understand. (Although, neither is as good as Greek!)

Your post was pure heresy. Because there are NOT three "beings," not ever!! "Being," or ousia references to the ontology of God. There is only ONE God. However, there are THREE persons, or hypostasis, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and only Jesus has a body! (What garbage you spew out!)

Christian doctrine in every branch and denomination, since the early church is again:

One being with three persons!
One ousia with three hypostasis!

What you have said is the definition of heresy. Totally not biblical, totally uninspired, wrong, nonsense, ahistorical and NOT led by the Holy Spirit.

It also shows me how incredibly limited and wrong your theology is, which follows that your Word Faith is also based on heresy! Meaning, the most basic level of theology is to know who God is! By your statement above, you have proved you have NO knowledge of who God is, something I have repeated stated is the basic error of the entire Word Faith heresy.

Word Faith dogma posits that we are "little gods" and therefore, like God, we can command things into existence, by believing in ourselves, and that our relationship with God or our faith is perfect. Over and over you, in this post and others, have said that we are "missing out" on commanding God, (how theologically wrong can you get!?) and how we do not have your version of who God is, which limits us in our ability to have our demands (prayers!) answered. And yet, the entire Word Faith understanding of God, of Jesus, is that his goal is to make us gods on this earth, which we are not, never will be, and is based on an out of context reference in the OT, quoted in the NT, that has been twisted and pulled of context!

Until you do some actual research, reading and learn correct doctrine, you are just continuing to flog lies at worst, or utter ignorance at best!

As for your personal revelation of this nonsense? I will stick to inspired Scripture; a Scriptural and historical understanding of who God is; plus an understanding of theology; Christian history, as well understanding after studying it extensively, that lies are basis of the heretical doctrines of the Word Faith nightmare.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
3,533
618
113
Don't bother posting Scriptures for me. Then I would feel obligated to refute every single one of them, using context and hermeneutics, as well as the original languages.

Since you do not even understand the bare basics, like the difference between "being" and "person," which I would hazard a guess that most people in this forum understand. (Although, neither is as good as Greek!)

Your post was pure heresy. Because there are NOT three "beings," not ever!! "Being," or ousia references to the ontology of God. There is only ONE God. However, there are THREE persons, or hypostasis, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and only Jesus has a body! (What garbage you spew out!)

Christian doctrine in every branch and denomination, since the early church is again:

One being with three persons!
One ousia with three hypostasis!

What you have said is the definition of heresy. Totally not biblical, totally uninspired, wrong, nonsense, ahistorical and NOT led by the Holy Spirit.

It also shows me how incredibly limited and wrong your theology is, which follows that your Word Faith is also based on heresy! Meaning, the most basic level of theology is to know who God is! By your statement above, you have proved you have NO knowledge of who God is, something I have repeated stated is the basic error of the entire Word Faith heresy.

Word Faith dogma posits that we are "little gods" and therefore, like God, we can command things into existence, by believing in ourselves, and that our relationship with God or our faith is perfect. Over and over you, in this post and others, have said that we are "missing out" on commanding God, (how theologically wrong can you get!?) and how we do not have your version of who God is, which limits us in our ability to have our demands (prayers!) answered. And yet, the entire Word Faith understanding of God, of Jesus, is that his goal is to make us gods on this earth, which we are not, never will be, and is based on an out of context reference in the OT, quoted in the NT, that has been twisted and pulled of context!

Until you do some actual research, reading and learn correct doctrine, you are just continuing to flog lies at worst, or utter ignorance at best!

As for your personal revelation of this nonsense? I will stick to inspired Scripture; a Scriptural and historical understanding of who God is; plus an understanding of theology; Christian history, as well understanding after studying it extensively, that lies are basis of the heretical doctrines of the Word Faith nightmare.
Is he teaching Tri-Theism?
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
3,533
618
113
Psalm 48 Good News Translation (GNT)
Zion, the City of God[a]
48 The Lord is great and is to be highly praised
in the city of our God, on his sacred hill.
2 Zion, the mountain of God, is high and beautiful;
the city of the great king brings joy to all the world.
3 God has shown that there is safety with him
inside the fortresses of the city.
4 The kings gathered together
and came to attack Mount Zion.
5 But when they saw it, they were amazed;
they were afraid and ran away.
6 There they were seized with fear and anguish,
like a woman about to bear a child,
7 like ships tossing in a furious storm.
8 We have heard what God has done,
and now we have seen it
in the city of our God, the Lord Almighty;
he will keep the city safe forever.
9 Inside your Temple, O God,
we think of your constant love.
10 You are praised by people everywhere,
and your fame extends over all the earth.
You rule with justice;
11 let the people of Zion be glad!
You give right judgments;
let there be joy in the cities of Judah!
12 People of God, walk around Zion and count the towers;
13 take notice of the walls and examine the fortresses,
so that you may tell the next generation:
14 “This God is our God forever and ever;
he will lead us for all time to come.”
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
2,971
145
63
You are aware that Word of Faith Theology was created by a Man who attended a Christian Science College?
And, that He read Mary Baker Eddy's Theology into the Bible then into his own books.

I am a former Christian Scientists, and I know it when I see it. In fact, Word of Faith books are very popular among Christian Scientists, and not one has come to Jesus through those books.

"Alice Hubbard, Elbert's second wife, was an integral part of the Roycroft Campus and muse for Elbert's writings. She was a graduate of Emerson College in Boston, MA. It was known then as "Emerson College of Oratory". She graduated in circa 1892. Emerson Collge which was oriented in New Thought, a non-traditional religious discipline that was influenced by transcendentalist philosophy and held as a central tenet that personal understanding of the world was continually evolving. "https://roycroftcampuscorporation.t...n/2009/02/alice-hubbards-emerson-college.html

D.R. McConnell, A Different Gospel: A Historical and Biblical Analysis of the Modern Faith Movement

"This book began as McConnell’s master’s thesis when he was a student at Oral Roberts University. He is a Charismatic pastor, so this is an insider’s look at something he finds disturbing. ....

Kenyon attended the Emerson School of Oratory in 1892. There, he was under the influence of Charles Emerson, a Christian Scientist; R.W. Trine, a Gnostic who wrote one of the major books on New Thought; and M.J. Savage, a Unitarian whose church Kenyon attended."https://thewordonthewordoffaithinfoblog.com/2009/02/24/ex-word-of-faith-preacher-tells-“the-truth-about-the-word-of-faith”/



https://www.google.com/search?q=Kenyon+word+of+faith+theology+"christian+science"&tbm=bks&ei=gN92XIjhIsaUtQXJ6ZjgBg&start=10&sa=N&ved=0ahUKEwiIof7ezdzgAhVGSq0KHck0BmwQ8NMDCHI&biw=1156&bih=470&dpr=1.65
Honestly, it doesn't matter to me who started what or whether or not that faith stuff works.
All I care about is what is written, am I interpreting it correctly, and is it a truth of God.
Outside that and I don't care.
I'm not about to base my faith in other people's experiences or lack thereof.
As for me, I KNOW the word of God is truth, and if God reveals the truth to me, then I know I can stand on said word with my life.
You all do it with your salvation, we need to do the same with all the other promises, regardless of how outlandish it mind sound, God is faith who promised.
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
2,971
145
63
Is he teaching Tri-Theism?
https://thewordonthewordoffaithinfoblog.com/author/thewordonthewordoffaithradio/

"
New Thought was a movement that began after the death of Phineas P. Quimby (1802-66) when a number of his students came together to preserve his teaching. Quimby had developed an alternative system of healing through parapsychology after beginning a career as a mesmerist. Quimby taught that bodily sickness was caused when the mind believed false notions about health, and could be healed by correcting these beliefs in the mind. The movement that sprang from his protégé emphasised, not only health and healing, but also abundance, prosperity, wealth and happiness. The basic presuppositions of New Thought’s system of divine healing are, firstly, God is all reality and in God is no sickness; secondly, man is a part of God and therefore man’s sickness is not a reality; thirdly, healing occurs automatically when men believe the truth about reality.

Quimby labelled his system the ‘science’ of Christ. From Quimby came M. B. Eddy who developed Christian Science as a movement separately from New Thought and founded the Church of Christ, Scientist. From Quimby also came a new generation of faith-healers in the Divine Healing movement, such as E. W. Kenyon, John G. Lake and William M. Branham, who carried the emphasis of Quimby and New Thought into their own Pentecostal healing ministries. "http://talkingpentecostalism.blogspot.com/2008/05/origin-of-prosperity-doctrine-part-v.html
What do you think of John MacArther saying, "the bible isn't God's word but that mystical spiritual word you get is"?
Is He off too or not?
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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The Word-faith Controversy: Understanding the Health and Wealth Gospel
Front Cover
Robert M. Bowman


David Hume wrote a thesis on 1 + 1 = 2 why are you using Man's logic???

We need to remember, that with this type of communication that we do not have all the cues of communication we normally have.

Odds are we don't see word of faith truths because of their teachers use poor interpretation skills, poor application of texts, poor Hermeneutics , read Christian Science theology into the text and so on.

No humans' interpretation today is infallible.
I must admit my communication skills are lacking somewhat, but I'm working on it.
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
2,971
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I do understand what you are saying. But i just cant find this teaching in the bible.
And as I that before, even Cults like JW taking the bible for to defend their Doctrine. to Quote the bible is no Proof that the Doctrine is biblical.
Okay, you sound honest enough to tell it like you see it.
As for me, I can't change what I believe, because I still see what is written the same way.
And that's because no one has been able to prove otherwise.
So we will just have to agree that we can't agree on what we see and understand concerning WOF.
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
2,971
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One being with three persons!
Yes, that sounds about right.
Honestly, I don't see what the big fuss is all about.
All this over the words "being" and "person"?
Okay, so I agree with what you said. One being with three persons.
Sounds good to me.
It's still saying the same thing I was trying to convey.
 
K

KnowMe

Guest
Prove it from scripture

He said he had no place to lay his head
Walked every where he went except when he fulfilled prophecy on the ass
Was a man of sorrows
And I personally believe he was sickly and base

NO where do the scripture state he was wealthy and or healthy
you forgot the boat rides across the lake.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,392
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If you would stop placing time limits on these promises, you might start reaping the benefits from them.
What does Heb 10:23 have to do with WOF, you ask?

Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering;(for he is faithful that promised)

If you would stop placing time limits on these promises, you might start reaping the benefits from them.

After you pray, more likely than not, nothing will happen, and then you enter into the interim or testing period.
The time of testing of your faith.
This is the time you have to deal with the god of this world, and fight the good fight of faith, by holding fast to your profession/confession of faith WITHOUT ANY WAVERING WHATSOEVER, by calling things which be not as though they were, based on the promises of God.
Is it a sin to believe you are healed after you asked God for the healing, expecting it to manifest, even though your body screams otherwise?
Name it claim it has its roots in believing and expecting God to give you your request for healing even though your flesh says your still sick. If you reject what you feel and believe and accept what is written, if you continue, then you will know the truth, and the truth of the word of Gdo will MAKE you free/healed.
This is where you hold fast to your confession that God healed you, even though you see no improvement.
This is where you look to God's word for assurance, that He will do according to His word/promise.

Well, since you couldn’t exegete a verse to save your life, I will, instead. What you have done above is eisegesis. (Eis from the Greek – into!) You have read into the verse what you want it to say, rather than looking about what it actually says. Exegesis, pulls out what the verse is saying (Ex – out of)

Someone already posted all of Hebrews 10, to show how out of context your entire post is. But, I am just going to show specifically how that works, since poor "Know" knows nothing about how to correctly read a verse in context and also in terms of the passage, chapter and book.

Your verse 23 is this:
“Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.” NIV

What are the surrounding verses about? About how Jesus inaugurated the new covenant with his blood. We are to be assured IN HIM. IN CHRIST!

Nothing to do with what you said, “This is where you hold fast to your confession that God healed you, even though you see no improvement.” Where is healing even mentioned in this chapter, even in the book of Hebrews!!?? You are reading your own nonsense into the verse, that simply is not there!

So, how to do the basics of hermeneutics, or bible interpretation! You can use this successfully on every single verse in the Bible. It is not based on some kind of crazy personal revelation, based on contradicting the Bible, good doctrine, and the history of the church.

1. You post the verse with the surrounding verses, to see what it is saying:

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.”Hebrews 10:19-25 NIV

Notice the way NIV translates this, which is right. “Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.” 10:23. It is not our faithfulness, but rather, the one who promised, (He who promised) that is the faithful one. Even your version says it is about HIM, not us. As for holding on to our profession, it is our profession of HOPE, not faith. This verse has nothing to do with faith, but rather the hope we have in Christ, who paid the price on Calvary.

2. What is the chapter about?

a) It is about Christ’s once for all sacrifice for our sins.
“And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.” Hebrews 10:10

b) It is about how Jesus came to begin the New Covenant on the cross, with his blood.
“It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.” 10:4;

“But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,” 10:12;


“The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.” 10:15-16


c) It is about that the earthly priesthood cannot make anyone holy, only Jesus Christ can do that.
“Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.” 10:11

d) And it is clear that by his sacrifice, we are being made perfect forever.
“For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.”10:14

Notice the words being made holy!” This is the passive voice. It is about how GOD is perfecting us. Not us perfecting ourselves so we can be like God. Not about us! We will never be perfect in this lifetime. Jesus was the only person who was/is/and will be perfect.

Not, like you say, “believing and expecting God to give you your request for healing even though your flesh says your still sick”. That is just a lie from the devil. It is a lie from a person. We are not to lie about our physical or mental state. Only the devil himself could have come up with lying as the root to healing!! To say nothing of the fact, that I thought you were supposed to be explaining Hebrews 10:23, which has nothing to do with lying to make sure God heals you! How perverse!

It is most certainly NOT about “If you reject what you feel and believe and accept what is written, if you continue, then you will know the truth, and the truth of the word of Gdo will MAKE you free/healed.” You posted this above. It has NOTHING to do with the verse you quoted!

e) Finally, it is about that through Jesus we can draw near to God, with a sincere heart, clean of guilt.
“and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.” 10:21-22

e) From there, the writer of Hebrews deals with persevering in our faith. Our faith in us? In our confession? No! Our faith in the work Jesus did on our behalf, to bring us salvation. Our need to persevere in our faith in who HE IS! Not faith in our own faith. Our faith in HIS salvation.
“But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.” 10:39.

So, does this chapter have anything to do with healing? NO! It is a part of sermon to the Hebrews, and how to understand Jesus sacrifice on the cross and how it saved us, and how that started the New Covenant. And how we are saved by that sacrifice. (If we believe, of course!)

3. The book of Hebrews – what is it about? Our last look at Bible interpretation.

This book is an address to the Hebrew people, on how the Jewish background, the rituals and sacrifices, which contain the entire foreshadowing of the work of Jesus on the cross.

a) William L. Lane, in his Word Biblical Commentary (#37)notes that this chapter also introduces the themes for the rest of the letter to the Hebrews, such as faith, hope (expressed as perseverance) and love. Further, Lane points out that in fact, verse 23 of chapter 10 is the second appeal in Hebrews for a stance of unwavering fidelity in the eschatological hope. And finally, that in the term “hope” in Hebrews is ALWAYS refers to the objective content of hope, (rather than the act of hoping) consisting of present and future salvation. (p.280; 288-89)

b) You simply cannot take a word, that is always used in the same way, in this book and somehow turn it into name it and claim it, believing and getting. This entire passage is about justification, and glorification. How we are saved, and how we will be saved. That is what the book of Hebrews is about!

c) Further, Peter T. O’Brian, in the Pillar NT Commentary, point out that “without wavering” describes the manner that we hold fast, (unwavering) rather than portraying the firmness of the confession itself. Nothing to do with confessing something, and God being obligated to grant it. (p. 368-69)


CONCLUSION:
God’s faithfulness is what this entire verse, 10:23, is about. Not the Word Faith claims that it is always God’s will to heal, based on the thinnest use of Isaiah possible. God’s faithfulness in fulfilling his promises, like the inauguration of the new covenant (8:6) assure the reader of Scripture that God will keep this promise!
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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Again, another copy and paste of something I already wrote, coming from a pamphlet called The Disease of the Health and Wealth Gospel by Gordon D. Fee. Gordon Fee is one of the top Bible and Greek scholars in the world. He is also Pentecostal, believes in healing and the gifts of the Spirit. But he does NOT believe in the distorted exegesis of the Bible, and how Health and Wealth teachers have twisted the Bible, as evident from so many posts in this thread.

As far as wealth, Gordon Fee doesn't have a kind word to say about it. It is totally a false doctrine. Having met numerous people who were fleeced by these evil men who preach unconditional wealth, it is not Biblical. I will not deal with it here, although if anyone wants to talk about it, in terms of what the Bible says, please feel free to post Bible verses on it. I do not believe in this false prosperity gospel and I would be willing to post the Scriptures that explain why. (I am NOT saying that God doesn't bless us, but again, it is not part of the atonement or the Bible!)

Regarding healing, Fee titles this chapter "The 'Gospel' of Perfect Health." First, he notes that physical and mental healing of human life is part of the redemptive activity of God. He believes in prayer for the sick, as I do! Christians are subject to decay and death in this present age, and healing is God's gracious activity in the body healed and is a sign of the future already at work in this present age.

If healing is supported by both the Bible and theology and praying in faith for the gracious healing of the sick, then where is the problem? What is the "disease" nature of the "gospel" of total health for Christians?

There are basically some biblical and theological distortions which insist:

1. that God wills perfect health and complete healing for every believer

2. that God has obligated Himself to heal every sickness for those who have faith (unless the sickness is a result of breaking God's "health" laws.)

Integral to this theology is the insistence that faith can "claim" such healing from God, and that any failure to be healed is not the fault of God, but of the one who has not had enough faith. Very often "claiming" healing means to "confess" it as done, even though the symptoms persists.

So the answer to why people are not healed, who have faith, has to lie NOT in the actual words of the Bible or God himself, but in the way the Bible is being interpreted. As with many half-truths, the "gospel" of perfect health sees to base itself on Scripture. However, the evangelists’ interpretation is faulty for the following reasons:

1. some poor, or flat-out wrong interpretations of key texts
2. some selective use of texts,
3. a failure to have a wholistic biblical view of things, and especially a failure to understand the essential theological framework of the New Testament writers.

As a result, they tend to repeat the Corinthian error and are unable to hear Paul's answers in 1 and 2 Corinthians as over and against themselves, although these evangelists are unwitting descendants of the false apostles of 2 Cor. 10-13!

"So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness. ”Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong." 2 Cor. 12:7-10


Basic hermeneutics demands the following things:

The aim of all biblical interpretation is the "plain meaning" of the text. This is the "original meaning", that the author plainly intended and that the original readers plainly understood. The Bible is indeed a book for all seasons, because it speaks directly out of our past to our present situation, it does so because it first spoke to them in their situation.

Therefore, the first task of interpretation is NOT to find out what it says to us, but what it originally said to them. God's Word to us is not a new word, never before discovered; rather it must be the very same word he originally spoke back there and then. This is the only legitimate Word to be heard in Scripture.

All this must be insisted upon, because the basic Biblical failure of the "perfect health" evangelists is the interpretation of their primary texts. They simply fail to do adequate exegesis which has to do with determining the meaning of the text in original context.

The arguments for perfect health as God's will for all believers are based on three sets of texts

a. Paul's statement that "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law" Gal 3:14, coupled with Deuteronomy 28:21-22 where disease is one of the curses for disobedience of the law.

"The Lord will make the pestilence stick to you until he has consumed you off the land that you are entering to take possession of it. 22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease and with fever, inflammation and fiery heat, and with drought and with blight and with mildew. They shall pursue you until you perish." Deut. 28:21-22

It is argued from these texts that sickness is a part of the curse of the law, from which Christ redeemed us from.

b. Isa. 53 and the citation of Isa. 53:4 in Matt 8:17 and Isa. 53:5 in 1 Peter 2:24. It is argued from these texts, especially from the change to the past tense in 1 Peter that healing is in the atonement in the same way as forgiveness.

c. A whole host of texts that remind us that God honours faith eg. Matt 9:29, Mark 11:23-24, John 14:12; Hebrews 11:6; James 1:6-8

The first set of texts, (a above) can be quickly set aside. This is a typical example of a totally faulty "concordance" interpretation, which finds English "catch" words in various texts and then tries to make them all refer to the same thing. There is not even the remotest possibility that Paul was referring to the curses of Deuteronomy 28 when he spoke of "curse of the law." And "redemption" in Galatians has to do with one thing only - how does one have right standing with God - through faith (= trust in God's gracious acceptance and forgiveness for sinners), or by works of the law (=acceptance by obedience to prescribed rules)? Thus the Holy Spirit could scarcely have inspired a meaning of the text that is totally foreign to the point Paul is making in the context in Galatians.

It is also questionable whether one can rightly argue that the Bible teaches that healing is provided for in the atonement. Historic Pentecostalism does not see healing provided for in the atonement the same way as salvation. Healing is "provided for" because the "atonement brought release from the consequences of sin;" nevertheless, since "we have not yet received the redemption of our bodies" suffering and death are still our lot until the resurrection.

(Continued, next post of mine!)