NDEs and ADCs: Their Apologetic Value for the Christian Faith

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MadHermit

Junior Member
May 8, 2018
388
143
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#81
garee: "Yes up until the last revelation given to John before he sealed up with seven seals the possibility of any new revelation. God was still bringing new prophecy today we have the perfect. By which we try the spirits casting out any new attempt to add or take away from the now perfect. It did previous at one time confirm this or that at that time period or another. That order of confirmation ended ."
Y
our reply is jibberish! In any case, neither 1 Corinthians 13:12 nor Revelation 22:18-19 have anything to due with the end of divine relevation to God's people and you can find no academic commentary on 1 Corinthians or Revelation that says otherwise. Indeed, the NT cannot claim that its canon closes the era of new revelation. Why not? Because the NT didn';t even exist as a consensus collection of books until the end of the 2nd century!

Garee: "NDEs and NDEs that open the spirit world as a personal source of faith to the idea of just believe have a experience, They open another gospel, another christ other than our one mediator. God continues to send a strong delusion."

First, God does not "send a strong delusion." God speaks Truth.
Second, NDEs have precedent in ample biblical examples of communication from the dead which you have not squarely addressed.
Third, NDEs fulfill God's promise of abundant latter-day visions and you have offered nothing to refute that glorious fact.
Fourth, atheists and agnostics have been gloriously sved through NDEs.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
27,475
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#82
God does not "send a strong delusion."

2 Thessalonians 2:10-11

They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
14,730
1,379
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#83
garee: "Yes up until the last revelation given to John before he sealed up with seven seals the possibility of any new revelation. God was still bringing new prophecy today we have the perfect. By which we try the spirits casting out any new attempt to add or take away from the now perfect. It did previous at one time confirm this or that at that time period or another. That order of confirmation ended ."
Y
our reply is jibberish! In any case, neither 1 Corinthians 13:12 nor Revelation 22:18-19 have anything to due with the end of divine relevation to God's people and you can find no academic commentary on 1 Corinthians or Revelation that says otherwise. Indeed, the NT cannot claim that its canon closes the era of new revelation. Why not? Because the NT didn';t even exist as a consensus collection of books until the end of the 2nd century!

Garee: "NDEs and NDEs that open the spirit world as a personal source of faith to the idea of just believe have a experience, They open another gospel, another christ other than our one mediator. God continues to send a strong delusion."

First, God does not "send a strong delusion." God speaks Truth.
Second, NDEs have precedent in ample biblical examples of communication from the dead which you have not squarely addressed.
Third, NDEs fulfill God's promise of abundant latter-day visions and you have offered nothing to refute that glorious fact.
Fourth, atheists and agnostics have been gloriously sved through NDEs.
Nostradamus's promise of abundant latter-day visions?

What you offered does not even make biblical sense.The idea that some consensus collection of books ended as the last revelation. The 2nd century is passed. So now when we do have the perfect?

One third of world history passed before the consensus of the five books were made public. It did not change the truth within because of the silent period between hearing and moving men to write. it does not become true because someone read it .It was truth long before..

Sounds like Catholisicim . Who insist we must seek after there fathers because they make claims of fame of living in the era when God performed his will and assembled His cannon 66 books .

Yes God does send truth and when men try to develop their own as this fleshly oral tradition as a illusion coming from a lying angel he sends a strong delusions so you can continue to believe the lie. In other word he will keep sending the same truth that you did not believe the first time. over and over .He will not change His mind an approve of another source of faith I respect to the unseen. .

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:2 Thessalonians 2;9-10-11

I am sorry but there can only be one source of faith .Personally I will stick with Christ who demonstrated not to go above that which is written its a written guarantee he will not send a strong delusion over and over..... beleive it the first time .

Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, Colossians 2: 18

The question in Luke 18 is when he does come on the last day will he find the faith? In respect to that which comes from hearing God through his word? Or a worn out discarded religious book that cannot create illusion in one ones mind fleshly mind and therfore experience the new god .

Need more that he offers? What"s lacking today?
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
3,082
2,675
113
#84
you can also highlight text in anyone's post, and an button appears that says "reply" next to the highlighted text. if you click it, it automatically formats a quote of exactly what you have highlighted in the reply box.
Don't mean to sound like Simon the sorcerer, but where and how did you learn these tricks?

Acts 8 (paraphrased)
8:18 And when Simon saw that... he offered them money,
8:19 Saying, Give me also this power!
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
27,475
8,298
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#85
Don't mean to sound like Simon the sorcerer, but where and how did you learn these tricks?

Acts 8 (paraphrased)
8:18 And when Simon saw that... he offered them money,
8:19 Saying, Give me also this power!

all trial and ((much)) error
 

MadHermit

Junior Member
May 8, 2018
388
143
43
#86
garee: "Nostradamus's promise of abundant latter-day visions?"
garee, you should not cite Nostradamus's predictions because he used occult methods. God's Word predicts increasing visions as characteristic of "the last days (Acts 2:17)" and you have no basis for rejecting NDE visions as a fulfillment of that prediction.

garee: "What you offered does not even make biblical sense. The idea that some consensus collection of books ended as the last revelation."
The Catholic Church Fathers decided that canonical revelation should be limited to the age of the living apostles. In fact, there is no reason to limit God's revelation to the period prior to their deaths. Instead, the same Holy Spirit that was available to them is now available to us: "I have much more to say to you, but you can't handle it now. However, when the Spirit of Truth comes, He will guide you into all truth (John 16:12-13)." Jesus' promise applies to the entire church age and therefore to us.

garee: "The 2nd century is passed. So now when we do have the perfect?"
Your statement is based on a misunderstanding of 1 Corinthians 13:10: "When the perfect ['to teleion"] comes, the imperfect will disappear." In his respected Commentary on 1 Corinthians, Hans Conzelmann expresses the scholarly consensus on 13:10: "to teleion"
"the perfect," points to the parousia (= the 2nd Coming--p. 226)." In other words, "the perfect" will only come when we see Christ "face to face (13:12)."

garee and posthuman wrongly try to apply 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10 to modern NDEs and ADCs: "They perish because they refuse to love the truth, and so be saved. Therefore, God sends them strong delusion, so that they will believe a lie."
Their interpretation and application of this text can be refuted on 3 grounds:
(1) God is morally perfect and cannot lie or deceive: "God is not a man that He would lie (Numbers 23:19)." But God can abandon sinners to demonic delusions. This case is analogous to the petition in the Lord's Prayer: "Lead us not into temptation (or testing)." This petition might falsely be construed to mean that God tests or tempts believers. But James refutes this notion: "No one who is tested should say, "God is tempting me (James 1:13)." Instead, God might abandon us to testing and temptation by evil forces.

(2) Acts 2:18 envisages a unique increase in visionary experiences "in the latter days." NDEs and ADCs help fulfill that prophecy.

(3) NDEs and ADCs are often instruments of glorious conversions and profound encouragement to grieving Christian loved ones. So a
a blanket condemnation of such experiences is an offense to God's gracious acts of mercy. Many skeptics take an interest in the Gospel precisely because of NDEs and ADCs--and these skeptics would otherwise have no interest in God's Word! stay tuned for timely testimonies documenting this claim.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
27,475
8,298
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#87
Many skeptics take an interest in the Gospel precisely because of NDEs and ADCs--and these skeptics would otherwise have no interest in God's Word
Then saide Iesus vnto him,
Except ye see signes and wonders, ye will not beleeue.
(John 4:48)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
27,475
8,298
113
#88
posthuman wrongly try to apply 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10 to modern NDEs and ADCs: "They perish because they refuse to love the truth, and so be saved. Therefore, God sends them strong delusion, so that they will believe a lie."

no, post corrects you when you say "God does not send a strong delusion" by reminding you of the word of God,

God does not "send a strong delusion."

because 2 Thessalonians 2:11 happens to say exactly the opposite of what you said, and post hates lies.

The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
(2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
14,730
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#89
garee, you should not cite Nostradamus's predictions because he used occult methods. God's Word predicts increasing visions as characteristic of "the last days (Acts 2:17)" and you have no basis for rejecting NDE visions as a fulfillment of that prediction.
Hi Madhermit thanks for the reply,

Nostradamus used his fleshly mind as a way of puffing up his imagination as any man could. When a person uses their imagination as a source of faith its open season.... just imagine. Jesus passed that test exposing the lie of those who seek after what is called "will worship", which is experiences that the father of lies was bringing into Jesus's weakened mind, "visions of rapture" and "all the glory of all the kingdoms" that some call today NDE's or ADC's the new age old age. Jesus again and again declared the one manner of faith by which we can know Him as it is written .It as it is written made the NDE fade away . I would think like time to wake up from the illusion.

The illusion generation .

Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,Colossians 2:18

The thoughts of man are inspired by will of the man .

Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.Colossians 2:18

garee: "What you offered does not even make biblical sense. The idea that some consensus collection of books ended as the last revelation."

The Catholic Church Fathers decided that canonical revelation should be limited to the age of the living apostles. In fact, there is no reason to limit God's revelation to the period prior to their deaths. Instead, the same Holy Spirit that was available to them is now available to us: "I have much more to say to you, but you can't handle it now. However, when the Spirit of Truth comes, He will guide you into all truth (John 16:12-13)." Jesus' promise applies to the entire church age and therefore to us.
To begin with the idea that canonical revelation should be limited to the age of the living apostles is not of God but is of men .Apostle in the truest form of the word are still living being sent with the gospel .

That's not biblical sense. That's Catholic sense or a law of the fathers take away the authority of God's word by claiming false doctrine as oral traditions of men . If men are not inspired of their own self to bring the prophecy of God . Then what makes the Catholics think they could claim some sort of Cannon master as the hall of fame as another Devine authority which they clearly do according to the law of their fathers?

Biblical sense is that we do not know Christ, the anointing Holy Spirit of God after any man seen .Even Jesus resisted being called good master in respect to his flesh the things seen .He said only God is good giving all glory to our unseen father in heaven .

When the last word was inspired to John in the bok of revlation . the cannon was closed and sealed with 7 seals. God moving men to assembly it came later .just as the first 1/3 of world history had passed before Moses was moved to supply our source of faith as it is written

garee: "The 2nd century is passed. So now when we do have the perfect?"
Your statement is based on a misunderstanding of 1 Corinthians 13:10: "When the perfect ['to teleion"] comes, the imperfect will disappear." In his respected Commentary on 1 Corinthians, Hans Conzelmann expresses the scholarly consensus on 13:10: "to teleion"
"the perfect," points to the parousia (= the 2nd Coming--p. 226)." In other words, "the perfect" will only come when we see Christ "face to face (13:12)."
God is not a man as us .He has no form. Face to face is knowledge to knowledge, or glory to glory .

face to face: is compared to knowing in part partial face) to knowing perfectly

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

2 Corinthians 4:6For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

face to face: is glory to glory. That glory wil not be seen while we are still in our flesh no one could see the face as the glory of God and live in these bodies of death . His glory shines on life. Not NDE's

2 Corinthians 3:18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
14,730
1,379
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#90
no, post corrects you when you say "God does not send a strong delusion" by reminding you of the word of God,




because 2 Thessalonians 2:11 happens to say exactly the opposite of what you said, and post hates lies.

The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
(2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)
Looks like Madhermit has been sent a strong delusion every time he says God does not send. Lets hope it becomes weaker so he can believe the truth .Its what sets us free of the delusions we face.
 

MadHermit

Junior Member
May 8, 2018
388
143
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#91
ATHEIST HOWARD SRORM'S THRILLING CONVERSION THROUGH AN NDE
I have carefully refuted both posthuman and garee, but, as Jesus' puts it, they "don't have ears to hear." So perhaps the best way to refute their absurd dismissal of NDEs as "strong delusions" is to post Howard Storm's awesome testimony of how he was gloriously saved through his NDE. Howard had previously been a university art history professor who took delight in ridiculing Christian students. Howard Storm's testimony is the most powerful testimony I have ever heard. He has given it several times on the internet. Here is one of the shorter versions. It will thrill your soul:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...2E6D15E1B57D8F1E28962E6D15E1B57D8F1&FORM=VIRE

Howard wrote a book on his experience and the aftermath called "My Descent into Death," which offers a much more extensive account of his Q and A session with Jesus and the angels. After his conversion, he attends a non-Charismatic church and is immediately "slain in the Spirit!" His wife and the church members think he has had a heart attack, but in fact he has been overwhelmed by a vision of the angels joining the congregation in worship. For the presence of angels in church worship, see 1 Corinthians 11:10' cp. Revelation 1-3). Soon God calls Howard into full-time ministry.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
14,730
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#92
ATHEIST HOWARD SRORM'S THRILLING CONVERSION THROUGH AN NDE
I have carefully refuted both posthuman and garee, but, as Jesus' puts it, they "don't have ears to hear." So perhaps the best way to refute their absurd dismissal of NDEs as "strong delusions" is to post Howard Storm's awesome testimony of how he was gloriously saved through his NDE. Howard had previously been a university art history professor who took delight in ridiculing Christian students. Howard Storm's testimony is the most powerful testimony I have ever heard. He has given it several times on the internet. Here is one of the shorter versions. It will thrill your soul:

I am not into thrilling my fleshly mind or what you call soul . Thats for thrill seekers

I think both posthuman and garee have ears to hear to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches,. . Three strikes and Jesus struck out the king of visionaries, the master deceiver ….. as it is written strike one, again and again .....back to the bottomless dugout and take your ADC's with you.(lol) .

Jesus at the beginning of his ministry was send out into the wilderness as a scapegoat in his weakened position not eating for 40 days. This when the master of NDE which in reality is lying spirit as fallen angel brought in a lying illusion of that not seen by the faith of God.... it did not appeal the fleshly mind of Jesus he did not puff himself up in false pride.. Lo is Christ . Elvis is back in town .

Its the new age, old age gospel of experience... name it, and claim it.... saying it loud and saying it proud. Makes me wonder as informed in Luke 18 when he comes on the last day will he find faith that comes from the scriptures ?. Or Zombies walking around looking to experience eating living flesh . Its what Hollywood does best sell truth for the price of a illusion .

He grew strong in his Spirit and declared the will of the father ….I will not puff up my fleshly mind and use my imagination as a source of dead faith.

God will not change His mind and approve of a source of faith that the skies the limit. He will send a strong delusion over and over shown by the fact he will not change his mind.

Colossians 2:18Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,[/QUOTE]
 

MadHermit

Junior Member
May 8, 2018
388
143
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#93
garee: "I am not into thrilling my fleshly mind or what you call soul . Thats for thrill seekers"
In other words, you lack the intellectual integrity to even consider the evidence. You have watched none of the videos or read and responded to my posted case histories. Indeed, like Paul, Howard Storm was gloriously converted and called to be a pastor through his NDE. Jesus said, "By their fruits you shall known th

garee: "Jesus struck out the king of visionaries, the master deceiver "
On the contrary, here are just 3 Scriptures that demonstrate how you are perverting God's Word:
(1) Jesus Himself uses His own visions to justify His ministry (Luke 10:18-19).
(3) Paul was converted and called to be the apostle to the Gentiles through a vision (Acts 9:1-8; Galatians 1:12-13).
(3) Peter teaches that latter-day visions signify the end-times (Acts 2:17). NDEs and ADCs are faith-inspiring visions!

garee: "Jesus at the beginning of his ministry was send out into the wilderness as a scapegoat in his weakened position not eating for 40 days. This when the master of NDE which in reality is lying spirit as fallen angel brought in a lying illusion of that not seen by the faith of God.... "
Reread the Scriptures in question: there is no mention of an NDE or ADC in the story of Jesus' temptations in the wilderness!

garee: "Its the new age, old age gospel of experience."
Paul's Gospel IS the "Gospel of experience." Read 1 Corinthians 2:4-5; 4:19-20l Galatians 3:3, 5"
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
14,730
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#94
garee: "I am not into thrilling my fleshly mind or what you call soul . Thats for thrill seekers"
In other words, you lack the intellectual integrity to even consider the evidence. You have watched none of the videos or read and responded to my posted case histories. Indeed, like Paul, Howard Storm was gloriously converted and called to be a pastor through his NDE. Jesus said, "By their fruits you shall known th

garee: "Jesus struck out the king of visionaries, the master deceiver "
On the contrary, here are just 3 Scriptures that demonstrate how you are perverting God's Word:
(1) Jesus Himself uses His own visions to justify His ministry (Luke 10:18-19).
(3) Paul was converted and called to be the apostle to the Gentiles through a vision (Acts 9:1-8; Galatians 1:12-13).
(3) Peter teaches that latter-day visions signify the end-times (Acts 2:17). NDEs and ADCs are faith-inspiring visions!

garee: "Jesus at the beginning of his ministry was send out into the wilderness as a scapegoat in his weakened position not eating for 40 days. This when the master of NDE which in reality is lying spirit as fallen angel brought in a lying illusion of that not seen by the faith of God.... "
Reread the Scriptures in question: there is no mention of an NDE or ADC in the story of Jesus' temptations in the wilderness!

garee: "Its the new age, old age gospel of experience."
Paul's Gospel IS the "Gospel of experience." Read 1 Corinthians 2:4-5; 4:19-20l Galatians 3:3, 5"
The 3 Scripture references that you offered supports the work of the Holy Spirit of God bringing a vision into ones mind. . One of the manners he did bring new prophecy before the last words were inspired. We now have the perfect.

Why would we look to lying falling angels as lying wonders for inspiration??????
 

MadHermit

Junior Member
May 8, 2018
388
143
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#95
MUSLIM CONVERSIONS THROUGH VISIONS AND NDES:

God is now saving thousands of Muslims through visions of Jesus. One of them shared his testimony in my church. For an absolutely thrilling testimony of a Lebanese jihadi Muslim conversion through a vision, watch Kamal Saleem's testimony:


I will follow this up with another Muslim conversion, this one of Ahmed, an Ethiopian Muslim dying of AIDS who has a visionary NDE encounter with Jesus.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
14,730
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#96
MUSLIM CONVERSIONS THROUGH VISIONS AND NDES:

God is now saving thousands of Muslims through visions of Jesus. One of them shared his testimony in my church. For an absolutely thrilling testimony of a Lebanese jihadi Muslim conversion through a vision, watch Kamal Saleem's testimony:


I will follow this up with another Muslim conversion, this one of Ahmed, an Ethiopian Muslim dying of AIDS who has a visionary NDE encounter with Jesus.
I prefer the testimony of Christ in Mathew 4 .He declared to us the one source of Christian faith, as it is written. Three times (as it is written) to establish his goal of warning us of those who use as a false source of faith... their own fleshly imagination .

There is no evidence of anyone in the scriptures believing God without hearing His voice Just the fact that God is no longer adding any new revelations as interpretation from God for two thousand years .I would think would be enough to put the visions of Satan as his lying wonders in a proper perspective. Its simply another case of someone desiring as "sign gift" to use to puff oneself up, self edification. (another kind of gospel another mediator other than the word of God)

Makes good Hollywood drama

Colossians 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind
 

MadHermit

Junior Member
May 8, 2018
388
143
43
#98
garee: "He declared to us the one source of Christian faith, as it is written. Three times (as it is written) to establish his goal of warning us of those who use as a false source of faith... their own fleshly imagination ."

So you consider Paul's conversion vision on the Damascus road an example of "their own fleshly imagination?"
garee: "There is no evidence of anyone in the scriptures believing God without hearing His voice"

Duh, both atheist Howard Storm and Muslim jihadist Kamal Saleen heard God' s voice!

garee: "Just the fact that God is no longer adding any new revelations as interpretation from God for two thousand years .I would think would be enough to put the visions of Satan as his lying wonders in a proper perspective."

First, what is "the new revelation" in the YouTube testimonies of atheist Howard Storm and Muslim jihadi Kamal Saleem? None. As usual, you are pontificating from ignorance and lack the basic integrity to watch the testimonies and see what is at issue.
Second, by treating as Satanic any spiritual experience that doesn't fit your anti-intellectual agenda, you come close to fitting the profile of what Jesus meant by the sin of blaspheming against the Holy Spirit.
 

MadHermit

Junior Member
May 8, 2018
388
143
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#99
It's interesting that Fundamentalists like garee and posthuman can't rejoice when atheists and Muslims get gloriously saved through NDEs and visions because they'd rather see their untenable biblical interpretations survive refutation than see the cause of the Gospel advanced. So they can't even bring themselves to watch the testimonies that destroy their positions!

Thus, they are like the curious sinner in the tree who wanted to watch the spectacle of George Whitefield's awesome preaching to the masses during the Great Awakening. He had to hold his fingers over his ears to avoid getting convicted of his need to repent. But flies buzzed around his face, so that he was forced to swat them away. Alas, when he did so, he heard Whitefield's preaching and was convicted and gloriously saved. garee and posthuman are up the tree of a rigid myopic thought Ghetto. But so far they have endured the discomfort of the YouTube "truth flies" and thus succeeded in shutting out the Holy Spirit's witness to the Truth!
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
27,475
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Fundamentalists like garee and posthuman
Hey wow thanks!

Feels good to be called a Fundamentalist. :)

Since you contrast yourself, it follows that you are a theological liberal?

Makes sense. i will pray for those you 'pastored' ;)