NEW PRETRIB RAPTURE EVIDENCE!!!

[heartofdavid]

Hello iamsoandso,



I have been studying end-time events for quite some time, and I live in the book of Revelation. It is because I have and do look closely at these things as the reason why I am confident about what I am claiming. If I did not look closely at these things, then I would have no right to make any claims regarding them and in fact would not be proclaiming anything. I do not contend for these truths for my own glory, but because I am zealous for the truth and accuracy of God's word.



Here is why the wrath of God, the Day of Lord, is going to take place and who it is going to take place against:

"See, the day of the Lord is coming—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it."

"See, the day of the Lord is coming -a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger--to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it.


The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light.
The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light.
I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins.
I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty and will humble the pride of the ruthless.
I will make man scarcer than pure gold, rarer than the gold of Ophir.

Therefore I will make the heavens tremble; and the earth will shake from its place at the wrath of the Lord Almighty, in the day of His burning anger. - Isa.13:9-13

"The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the works of their hands. They did not stop worshiping demons and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone, and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk. 1Furthermore, they did not repent of their murder, sorcery, sexual immorality, and theft. - Rev.9:20-21

And the following is what the result of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments is going to be:

"I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth,” “When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,” declares the Lord. “I will sweep away both man and beast; I will sweep away the birds in the sky and the fish in the sea—and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble.” “When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,”



That would be true if the worship of the beast, his image and receiving his mark was the only reason that God is pouring out his wrath. But as you can see from the scriptures that I provided above, His wrath will be against the haughty, the proud, the arrogant, the works of their hands, that they would not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone, wood, murder, sorcery, sexual immorality, and theft, etc., etc.



I think that you need to go back and read that, because I did not say, nor have I ever taught that the resurrection of the church takes place at the end of the seven years. It in fact takes place prior to the beginning of the seven years. After that, the antichrist is revealed where he establishes that seven year agreement with Israel. There is also a resurrection of the great tribulation saints after the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, as revealed in Rev.20:4-6. This group is not the church, but will be those who receive Christ after the church has been gathered known as the great tribulation saints.

You are confusing 1 Thes.4:13-18 with Rev.20:4-6, the former being the gathering of the church and the latter one being the resurrection of the great tribulation saints. Both of these belong to the first resurrection.

Could be,but not likely.
In fact rev 14 shifts specifically to the jew.

The 7 year GT is in fact jacobs trouble,not christian trouble .
Rev 20 is simply saying what John saw,and those beheaded are from the innumerable number way back at the beginning of the GT.
They are already in heaven.

To further bolster that,you leave out that they the martyrs have already been to the bema seat,recieved the martyrs reward.
Those foolish virgins are the innumerable number,as are those martyrs in rev 20.
It is the same group.

It even says of the martyrs early on to stay under the altar UNTIL YOUR NUMBER IS COMPLETED.
THEN we see them no longer under the altar.
Because that number is completed by the AC.
IT even says all on the earth take the mark.
There is no resurrection at the end of the GT.
They are resurrected early on and seen in heaven as the innumerable number,not resurrected at the end of the gt.

All the stragglers and the dead not raised in 1thes 4 rapture are raised at the GWT JUDGEMENT.
That is the sheep /goat, wheat/tare judgement at the end of the mil.
Or the end of the world jesus referred to in mat 24 where the sea gave up her dead.

 

[3Scoreand10]

And the above was what I was responding to. Those Gentiles, the great tribulation saints, will not all be killed. Many will be killed, but there will also be those who endure until Christ returns to the earth to end that age. These will also enter into the millennial period with Israel. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to have the sheep and goat judgment, because according to you, there would be no sheep to judge. Nor would there be any nations to beat there swords into plowshares and the spears into pruning hooks. Also, in the parable of the wheat and the weeds, there would be no wheat for angels to gather if they all died during that time period.

Israel and the surviving great tribulation saints (Gentiles), will enter into the millennial period in their mortal bodies and will repopulate the earth during that time.[/COLOR]

Israel will reproduce. Just because Israel accepts Jesus as king does not mean all Jews will be saved at His coming. Those born during the millennial will not automatically be saved. Just as today, some will be saved and some will not. Thus the sheep and the goats.
Israel will enter the millennial with weapons or war. They will beat their there swords into plowshares.

If Saints were to enter the millennial in their mortal bodies, than Jesus' promise in John 14:1-5 is a lie.
He did not say He would come for some of the Saints, but ALL the Saints.

 

[3Scoreand10]

There is a very serious flaw in some of your thinking concerning the gathering of the Saints.
In John 14:1-5, Jesus promised to come for all saints. He put no qualification as to leaving some behind for any reason.
Either He comes for all, giving all a glorified body, or He lied.
The only way you can deny this is to twist the Word to fit your belief. An that would be calling Jesus a liar.

 

[dcontroversal]

Israel will reproduce. Just because Israel accepts Jesus as king does not mean all Jews will be saved at His coming. Those born during the millennial will not automatically be saved. Just as today, some will be saved and some will not. Thus the sheep and the goats.
Israel will enter the millennial with weapons or war. They will beat their there swords into plowshares.

If Saints were to enter the millennial in their mortal bodies, than Jesus' promise in John 14:1-5 is a lie.
He did not say He would come for some of the Saints, but ALL the Saints.

The child will die accursed at 100 if I remember right......

 

[3Scoreand10]

Israel will reproduce. Just because Israel accepts Jesus as king does not mean all Jews will be saved at His coming. Those born during the millennial will not automatically be saved. Just as today, some will be saved and some will not. Thus the sheep and the goats.
Israel will enter the millennial with weapons or war. They will beat their there swords into plowshares.

If Saints were to enter the millennial in their mortal bodies, than Jesus' promise in John 14:1-5 is a lie.
He did not say He would come for some of the Saints, but ALL the Saints.

Another point I wanted to make.
According to Rev. 6, the man of sin has power over only a fourth of the earth to kill.
Therefore, there may be many Gentiles who do not take the mark and enter the Millennial in their mortal bodies.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Israel will reproduce. Just because Israel accepts Jesus as king does not mean all Jews will be saved at His coming. Those born during the millennial will not automatically be saved. Just as today, some will be saved and some will not. Thus the sheep and the goats.
Israel will enter the millennial with weapons or war. They will beat their there swords into plowshares.

If Saints were to enter the millennial in their mortal bodies, than Jesus' promise in John 14:1-5 is a lie.
He did not say He would come for some of the Saints, but ALL the Saints.

Morning!

The problem is that you're confusing the church with the great tribulation saints.

Jesus said, "I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it," which is still in the process of being built. Once the church is completed, the Lord gather us taking us back to the Father's house according to his promise in John 14:1-3.

After the church has been gathered, the world will enter into the time of God's wrath, the day of the Lord. During this time there will be those who will receive Christ, but are not the church. This is also supported by the fact that you never see the word "church" mentioned again after the end Rev.3. Chapters 1 thru 3 use only the word church, while from Rev.4 onward only the word "saints" is used.

This group who become saints during this time are introduced in Rev.7:9-17 as those in white robes which no man can count. These are the great tribulation saints. Many of the great tribulation saints will be killed, but some will endure though the time of God's wrath until Christ returns to the earth to end the age. It is these, along with Israel, who will enter into the millennial period in their mortal bodies and will repopulate the earth. The church will also be here, but in their immortal and glorified bodies which they will have received when they were gathered and will rule with Christ during that thousand years.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Another point I wanted to make.
According to Rev. 6, the man of sin has power over only a fourth of the earth to kill.
Therefore, there may be many Gentiles who do not take the mark and enter the Millennial in their mortal bodies.

Morning!

Just fyi, the man of sin is not the one who has power over a fourth of the earth. Death who is riding the pale green horse is given power over a fourth of the earth. The man of sin is the first seal represented by the rider on the white horse. He is a counterfeit of the rider on the white horse in Rev.19:11-21, who is the Lord Jesus.

 

[dcontroversal]

I and fairly confident that 3SCORE is not confusing "the church" with tribulation saints....as a mater of fact the word SAINTS is only applied to MEMBERS of NEW TESTAMENT churches ALL through the N.T. and then ALL of a sudden in REVELATION it is disassociated.....yeah....not buying it.....

 

[Bladerunner]

SO WHAT....I do not believe nor push replacement theology....so what is your point.....do you and your pal blabebummer deny that the Gentiles are being grafted in? Do you deny that in Christ there is NEITHER JEW NOR GENTILE but a new CREATION......IF you do...both of you need to get right and embrace the truth.....

You do not believe in replacement theology yet you do believe that Israel and the Church are all one now! Right!

 

[dcontroversal]

You do not believe in replacement theology yet you do believe that Israel and the Church are all one now! Right!

Go read what I have posted in other replacement threads.....I quoted a scripture that PAUL under inspiration wrote....in CHRIST there is NEITHER JEW nor GENTILE as the two have been grafted in under the same banner of belief....that does not change the fact that I have ALWAYS believed and pointed to ALL the scriptures that TEACHES that ISRAEL has NUMEORUS prophecies that yet deal with a FUTURE context.....ISAIAH is full of them and JESUS as the SON of DAVID will sit ON the THRONE in the world CAPITOL JERUSALEM and rule with a rod of IRON for 1000 years......

I have NEVER said the CHURCH is taking the place of ISRAEL, but rightfully conclude that GENTILES are being GRAFTED into the tree and BOTH are under the banner of faith....

Instead of accusing me like the workers for in my works thread how about simply ASK.......I am sick to death of people jumping to conclusions because I SIMPLY QUOTE a few verses WHICH are in the bible.....

 

[Bladerunner]

Morning!

Just fyi, the man of sin is not the one who has power over a fourth of the earth. Death who is riding the pale green horse is given power over a fourth of the earth. The man of sin is the first seal represented by the rider on the white horse. He is a counterfeit of the rider on the white horse in Rev.19:11-21, who is the Lord Jesus.

I don't think they will ever listen until it is too late......I know you had a purpose of leaving out Hell as the 2nd rider of that Pale Horse...Is getting crowded up there. lol... The death of the Body and the soul is sent to Hell. Complete separation from GOD. Hope you have a blessed weekend.

Blade

 

[iamsoandso]

Not that I mean any disrespect in this nor that I mean to butt in but just from curiosity I wonder how any of you also see this. In Daniel 10:14 it is told that this was what shall befall "thy people" in the latter days.

Now Israel is carried away into captivity by Assyria and Judah into captivity in Babylon and the reason they are carried into punishment is listed in Daniel and other books. So now their punishment is it over when they leave Babylon after the 70 years or does it continue through the duration of the 70 weeks in Daniel 9:24?


Then the issue of the gentiles and the beast and it's punishment does it flow along with the things spoken about in the punishment of those referred to as "thy people"? Why I ask is that if that length of time extends past the time determined as punishment for what they had done in the past(things they did to be sent to Babylon) then it is not only speaking of the punishment of what they had done but the things they would later do and the punishment of the beast for the things they do to them while being punished. It would all depend on if the end of their punishment and the beast are at the same time I suppose.

 

[heartofdavid]

There is a very serious flaw in some of your thinking concerning the gathering of the Saints.
In John 14:1-5, Jesus promised to come for all saints. He put no qualification as to leaving some behind for any reason.
Either He comes for all, giving all a glorified body, or He lied.
The only way you can deny this is to twist the Word to fit your belief. An that would be calling Jesus a liar.

Most everything from God is conditional.

If you read a few verses down it says;
[FONT=&quot]15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

See all the conditions?

All that and then there is the fact that what you posted was to the 12 only.
Yes not all are promised what he has for his bride. His 5 wise virgins.[/FONT]

 

[heartofdavid]

Take a fresh look at these verses;

Rev 7;9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Now we know from 1 thes 4 that the dead rise FIRST.

That means these innumerable one HAD TO ARRIVE AFTER THE RAPTURE.
What a heavy revvie. LOL

How does postrib or mid trib reconcile this.
It appears they can not

 

[3Scoreand10]

Morning!

The problem is that you're confusing the church with the great tribulation saints.

Jesus said, "I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it," which is still in the process of being built. Once the church is completed, the Lord gather us taking us back to the Father's house according to his promise in John 14:1-3.

After the church has been gathered, the world will enter into the time of God's wrath, the day of the Lord. During this time there will be those who will receive Christ, but are not the church. This is also supported by the fact that you never see the word "church" mentioned again after the end Rev.3. Chapters 1 thru 3 use only the word church, while from Rev.4 onward only the word "saints" is used.

This group who become saints during this time are introduced in Rev.7:9-17 as those in white robes which no man can count. These are the great tribulation saints. Many of the great tribulation saints will be killed, but some will endure though the time of God's wrath until Christ returns to the earth to end the age. It is these, along with Israel, who will enter into the millennial period in their mortal bodies and will repopulate the earth. The church will also be here, but in their immortal and glorified bodies which they will have received when they were gathered and will rule with Christ during that thousand years.

There is absolutely no verse in God's Word that proves that the "tribulation Saints" enter the millennial in the flesh.
There is absolutely no verse in God's Word that proves that John 14:1-5 in not promised to all Saints.
You produce that verse and I will believe it.
You have only given your opinion.
You recently posted a thread about RoadKill's prophecy and called here a false prophet if her prophecy did not come true.
Will you accept that name, FALSE PROPHET, when things do not come to pass as you have so stated in such great detail?

I am not the one confused. I am not the one who has stated personal opinion as fact. I am not the one who changes the meaning of words to prove my dogma. I am not the one who twist and changing the meaning of God's Word to prove my dogma.

I will pray for those that you have deceived with your false teaching, and I will pray that God will hinder you and your false teaching until you put your pride aside and learn the truth.

 

[Nehemiah6]

There is absolutely no verse in God's Word that proves that the "tribulation Saints" enter the millennial in the flesh.

Since these martyrs are clearly resurrected, they will have human bodies and will not be disembodied spirits. So why do you continue to resist simply truths? "Resurrection" means that the body which was dead is supernaturally made alive. Study the resurrection of Lazarus. Do you still want to see a verse or have you not studied Revelation 20?

 

[3Scoreand10]

Since these martyrs are clearly resurrected, they will have human bodies and will not be disembodied spirits. So why do you continue to resist simply truths? "Resurrection" means that the body which was dead is supernaturally made alive. Study the resurrection of Lazarus. Do you still want to see a verse or have you not studied Revelation 20?

I left this site for almost two years because it is dominated by false teachers.
Pre-trib "rapture of the church", works for salvation, salvation can be lost, ETC
It has only gotten worse.
I refuse to have my name associated with a site that allows this perverted teaching to continue.

 

[Bladerunner]

Go read what I have posted in other replacement threads.....I quoted a scripture that PAUL under inspiration wrote....in CHRIST there is NEITHER JEW nor GENTILE as the two have been grafted in under the same banner of belief....that does not change the fact that I have ALWAYS believed and pointed to ALL the scriptures that TEACHES that ISRAEL has NUMEORUS prophecies that yet deal with a FUTURE context.....ISAIAH is full of them and JESUS as the SON of DAVID will sit ON the THRONE in the world CAPITOL JERUSALEM and rule with a rod of IRON for 1000 years......

I have NEVER said the CHURCH is taking the place of ISRAEL, but rightfully conclude that GENTILES are being GRAFTED into the tree and BOTH are under the banner of faith....

Instead of accusing me like the workers for in my works thread how about simply ASK.......I am sick to death of people jumping to conclusions because I SIMPLY QUOTE a few verses WHICH are in the bible.....

Well now weare getting down to the meat and potatos. In the Body of Christ (the CHurch) there is neither Jew nor Gentile. That I agree with. But that is as far as it goes....If any Jew decides to believe in the Gospel of Christ (1 cor 15:1-4) they are saved as any Gentile would be.

Non-believers call them Messianic Jews and the True Christian calls them Brothers and Sisters.

Yes, we are grafted into that tree while Israel is blinded. The Bible tells us Israel will again in the future be re-grafted onto that same tree.

As far as the covenants go, I argued at one time that even though the Church has an inheritance of those covenants through the mere grafting onto that Tree, it is of no use to them. The Church is removed from the earth to heaven as the Body of Christ (Saints) prior to the re-grafting of Israel and thus will have no need of any benefits from any of the Covenants given to Israel by God.

Those elect who are left behind, even though they have this inheritance will find it hard to capitalize on it during this time period because of the world upheaval.

For unbelievers, staying alive will be of paramount importance.

Jacob's troubles was/is specifically designed to place the People of Israel, (up against the WALL) in order to bring them back to GOD.

Yes, there will be unbelievers that will become believers (elect left behind) during this time and will become martyrs.

God tells us that a remnant of Israel will be saved (at the AoD) in the mountains on earth. They are not taken to heaven, which would save them from the scourge surrounding Jerusalem. Instead, God abides by His NEW Covenant to them and places HIM in their hearts and removes all sin or future sin.

So now we have at least three players during the 70th week of Daniel (Jacob's troubles). The Church from the Age of Grace is not one of them.

Summary: The Church (Body of Christ) contains both Gospel believing Jews and Gentiles. A full 2/3 of Israel will die during this time because of their failure to believe that Jesus Christ is their Savior. The remnant or those who now believe in Jesus Christ will be in Jerusalem during the millennium as rulers of Israel. The Church (Body of Christ) will be Saints who God has made into Kings and Priests. I will assume they will be in both places Heaven and Earth during this period of time.

When One starts speaking about the Church and Israel (as a nation) as being the same during the 70th week of Daniel, then Replacement theology comes to minds.

 

[dcontroversal]

Well now weare getting down to the meat and potatos. In the Body of Christ (the CHurch) there is neither Jew nor Gentile. That I agree with. But that is as far as it goes....If any Jew decides to believe in the Gospel of Christ (1 cor 15:1-4) they are saved as any Gentile would be.

Non-believers call them Messianic Jews and the True Christian calls them Brothers and Sisters.

Yes, we are grafted into that tree while Israel is blinded. The Bible tells us Israel will again in the future be re-grafted onto that same tree.

As far as the covenants go, I argued at one time that even though the Church has an inheritance of those covenants through the mere grafting onto that Tree, it is of no use to them. The Church is removed from the earth to heaven as the Body of Christ (Saints) prior to the re-grafting of Israel and thus will have no need of any benefits from any of the Covenants given to Israel by God.

Those elect who are left behind, even though they have this inheritance will find it hard to capitalize on it during this time period because of the world upheaval.

For unbelievers, staying alive will be of paramount importance.

Jacob's troubles was/is specifically designed to place the People of Israel, (up against the WALL) in order to bring them back to GOD.

Yes, there will be unbelievers that will become believers (elect left behind) during this time and will become martyrs.

God tells us that a remnant of Israel will be saved (at the AoD) in the mountains on earth. They are not taken to heaven, which would save them from the scourge surrounding Jerusalem. Instead, God abides by His NEW Covenant to them and places HIM in their hearts and removes all sin or future sin.

So now we have at least three players during the 70th week of Daniel (Jacob's troubles). The Church from the Age of Grace is not one of them.

Summary: The Church (Body of Christ) contains both Gospel believing Jews and Gentiles. A full 2/3 of Israel will die during this time because of their failure to believe that Jesus Christ is their Savior. The remnant or those who now believe in Jesus Christ will be in Jerusalem during the millennium as rulers of Israel. The Church (Body of Christ) will be Saints who God has made into Kings and Priests. I will assume they will be in both places Heaven and Earth during this period of time.

When One starts speaking about the Church and Israel (as a nation) as being the same during the 70th week of Daniel, then Replacement theology comes to minds.

Well it does say that the remnant will collectively look upon him whom they pierced and weep for him as one weeps for the loss of a firstborn son....They will collectively believe as a nation.......the remnant that is.....!

 

[Ahwatukee]

I left this site for almost two years because it is dominated by false teachers.
Pre-trib "rapture of the church", works for salvation, salvation can be lost, ETC
It has only gotten worse.
I refuse to have my name associated with a site that allows this perverted teaching to continue.

The gathering of the church prior to the outpouring of God's wrath, is God's promise to us, not a false teaching. Paul refers to it as the "Blessed Hope" and after giving a detailed account of that event he says for us to comfort each other with this hope. If the church were to go through God's wrath and be gathered when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, it would be no blessed hope, nor could we comfort one another with those words. For regarding this time Jesus said that if those days had not been shorten, not one would be left alive.

As far as your mention "works for salvation" I would agree with you in that, scripture is clear in that we are saved by grace through faith and not by our own selves. It is the gift of God, not by works.


Regarding eternal security, faith is required from beginning to end. I could cite a number of scriptures, but I'm sure that it would fall on deaf ears. But I'll leave you with this one:


"Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel

Faith is required from beginning to end, which is our connection to God's grace.