Nimrod

[GodIsSalvation]

You've got a bunch of people that have defied God by building a city and a tower which was expressly the opposite of what God commanded them to do and that was not settle in one permanent place and yet you can believe the leadership behind these people was pleasing to God. I've got some swamp land in Death Valley I want to sell you.

Who was the leadership behind those people? Bible doesn't say it was Nimrod. Seems to indicate the people were working together and were of one mind. Could be a good indication Nimrod was not even alive at that point, or was elsewise very young and had not yet become a king as the verses about the territory he ruled along with Asshur would indicate they reigned sometime when the spreading out happened. Also to note God intervened on Tower of Babel and his judgment was not to annihilate the people, but simply to confound the languages.

Edit: Lol as for your swamp, you might have to find another customer, I don't have that much money

 

[GodIsSalvation]

Missed the Edit time, but for context I'll post the Genesis 11 Tower of Babel incident. Underlined pertinent words to corroborate the point of it being a joint-effort of the people and italicized the points of the Lord's just judgment to corroborate the points in post #241.

Genesis 11:1-9

1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

 

[Is]

Who was the leadership behind those people? Bible doesn't say it was Nimrod. Seems to indicate the people were working together and were of one mind. Could be a good indication Nimrod was not even alive at that point, or was elsewise very young and had not yet become a king as the verses about the territory he ruled along with Asshur would indicate they reigned sometime when the spreading out happened. Also to note God intervened on Tower of Babel and his judgment was not to annihilate the people, but simply to confound the languages.

Edit: Lol as for your swamp, you might have to find another customer, I don't have that much money

Genesis 11:2 places them "in the land of Shinar" and Genesis 10:10 says the beginning of Nimrod's kingdom was "in the land of Shinar."

 

[GodIsSalvation]

Genesis 11:2 places them "in the land of Shinar" and Genesis 10:10 says the beginning of Nimrod's kingdom was "in the land of Shinar."

Indeed, but that doesn't mean he was even alive when Tower of Babel happened. His kingdom containing other cities would seem to indicate he lived or reigned sometime after the scattering.

 

[Is]

Indeed, but that doesn't mean he was even alive when Tower of Babel happened. His kingdom containing other cities would seem to indicate he lived or reigned sometime after the scattering.

I don't see how you deduce that since 11:2 comes after 10:10.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

I don't see how you deduce that since 11:2 comes after 10:10.

Genesis 10 is just the Table of Nations detailing the immediate genealogies of Shem, Ham, and Japheth and beginnings of the races of man and covers several centuries as indicated by comparing Shem's offspring, particularly the sons of Arphaxad, to their ages in Genesis 11 which puts on emphasis on the line of Arphaxad up to Abraham.

Within Genesis 10 says Nimrod ruled over several cities, along with Asshur going out to build several cities. Genesis 11 Tower of Babel incident says the people were one people and moved into Shinar, and lived in one place and part of their motivation to build the Tower was so they would not be scattered. So the other cities could not have existed until after they were scattered. It's kinda simple really.

 

[Is]

Genesis 10 is just the Table of Nations detailing the immediate genealogies of Shem, Ham, and Japheth and beginnings of the races of man and covers several centuries as indicated by comparing Shem's offspring, particularly the sons of Arphaxad, to their ages in Genesis 11 which puts on emphasis on the line of Arphaxad up to Abraham.

Within Genesis 10 says Nimrod ruled over several cities, along with Asshur going out to build several cities. Genesis 11 Tower of Babel incident says the people were one people and moved into Shinar, and lived in one place and part of their motivation to build the Tower was so they would not be scattered. So the other cities could not have existed until after they were scattered. It's kinda simple really.

The tabel of nations gives no significant info EXCEPT for Nimrod's kingdom being in Shinar chap.10 and then the info about the rebellious people of Shinar comes on its heels in chap.11.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

The tabel of nations gives no significant info EXCEPT for Nimrod's kingdom being in Shinar chap.10 and then the info about the rebellious people of Shinar comes on its heels in chap.11.

I think it gives some significant information. For instance detailing the existence of other cities, and also the detail of Asshur going forth to build other cities. While it may seem like an insignificant detail on the surface of it, this would be a strong indication that Nimrod was either not alive or did not begin his reign until after the Tower of Babel as in Genesis 11 the people were still united and in one place and acting and making decision as a group rather than under the leadership of one man.

 

[Is]

I think it gives some significant information. For instance detailing the existence of other cities, and also the detail of Asshur going forth to build other cities. While it may seem like an insignificant detail on the surface of it, this would be a strong indication that Nimrod was either not alive or did not begin his reign until after the Tower of Babel as in Genesis 11 the people were still united and in one place and acting and making decision as a group rather than under the leadership of one man.

Asshur is the passive participle of a verb, which in its Chaldee sense, signifies "to make strong" and consequently, signifies "being strengthened," or "made strong." The passage should be read:

"And the beginning of his (Nimrod's) kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh." (v.10)

A beginninig naturally implies something to succeed, and here we find it (v.11):

"Out of that land he went forth, being made strong, or when he had been made strong (Ashur), and builded Nineveh,"

(Hyslop's Two Babylon's pg.24)

You're trying to make a proper name out of Asshur and the Chaldee signifies it means "to make strong."

 

[GodIsSalvation]

Asshur is the passive participle of a verb, which in its Chaldee sense, signifies "to make strong" and consequently, signifies "being strengthened," or "made strong." The passage should be read:

"And the beginning of his (Nimrod's) kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh." (v.10)

A beginninig naturally implies something to succeed, and here we find it (v.11):

"Out of that land he went forth, being made strong, or when he had been made strong (Ashur), and builded Nineveh,"

(Hyslop's Two Babylon's pg.24)

You're trying to make a proper name out of Asshur and the Chaldee signifies it means "to make strong."

Lol more proof Hyslop does not understand the Bible very well, or that he did and for some reason tries to twist it to make his own heretical mythology. Asshur is one of the sons of Shem and the father of the Assyrian race, and founded major Assyrian cities. It's pretty simple if you just stick to Bible-only lol, but we've been over this one before quite a few times also lol.

 

[Is]

Lol more proof Hyslop does not understand the Bible very well, or that he did and for some reason tries to twist it to make his own heretical mythology. Asshur is one of the sons of Shem and the father of the Assyrian race, and founded major Assyrian cities. It's pretty simple if you just stick to Bible-only lol, but we've been over this one before quite a few times also lol.

Geez, what happened? You've been clicking like on my posts whether or not you like them. I guess intelligence trumps stupid every time. Sohwee

 

[GodIsSalvation]

Geez, what happened? You've been clicking like on my posts whether or not you like them. I guess intelligence trumps stupid every time. Sohwee

Your posts that I like are the ones that pertain moreso to the Bible, and because I like you lady IS.

 

[Tintin]

I think it gives some significant information. For instance detailing the existence of other cities, and also the detail of Asshur going forth to build other cities. While it may seem like an insignificant detail on the surface of it, this would be a strong indication that Nimrod was either not alive or did not begin his reign until after the Tower of Babel as in Genesis 11 the people were still united and in one place and acting and making decision as a group rather than under the leadership of one man.

I think Nimrod would've been alive at the time of Peleg. I mean that's 100 or so years from when the Flood ended (and possibly not much longer than that). Ham would've easily had Cush and Cush had Nimrod by then. Nimrod may have even been an adult by then, but it's unlikely he was a ruler until after the Tower of Babel dispersion. Like you said, like the Bible says, 'the people were of one mind, united by a common goal'. That doesn't sound like there was anyone ruling over them at the time.

 

[Tintin]

Asshur is the passive participle of a verb, which in its Chaldee sense, signifies "to make strong" and consequently, signifies "being strengthened," or "made strong." The passage should be read:

"And the beginning of his (Nimrod's) kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh." (v.10)

A beginninig naturally implies something to succeed, and here we find it (v.11):

"Out of that land he went forth, being made strong, or when he had been made strong (Ashur), and builded Nineveh,"

(Hyslop's Two Babylon's pg.24)

You're trying to make a proper name out of Asshur and the Chaldee signifies it means "to make strong."

Oh, good gravy, Is! We'll have to pry that copy of He's Sloppy's book from your hands. It's not good scholarship.

 

[Tintin]

The tabel of nations gives no significant info EXCEPT for Nimrod's kingdom being in Shinar chap.10 and then the info about the rebellious people of Shinar comes on its heels in chap.11.

But Is, the events of Genesis 11 (save for excerpts of the geneaology that lead to Abram) all occur before the events of Genesis 10. Genesis 10 deals with Noah's descendants (by way of his sons) and how they dispersed after the Tower of Babel incident. Then Genesis 11 shows us what led to that dispersal in the first place. The chronology isn't linear and that's the way it happens sometimes in ancient Hebrew writings.

Think about this passage in Genesis 7. Do you notice anything strange?

[SUP]11 [/SUP]In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened. [SUP]12 [/SUP]The rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights. [SUP]13 [/SUP]On the very same day Noah with his sons, Shem and Ham and Japheth, and Noah’s wife and the three wives of his sons entered the ark, [SUP]14 [/SUP]they and every wild animal of every kind, and all domestic animals of every kind, and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every bird of every kind—every bird, every winged creature. [SUP]15 [/SUP]They went into the ark with Noah, two and two of all flesh in which there was the breath of life. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And those that entered, male and female of all flesh, went in as God had commanded him; and the Lord shut him in.[SUP] 17 [/SUP]The flood continued forty days on the earth; and the waters increased, and bore up the ark, and it rose high above the earth.

Noah and his family and all of the animals are already on the Ark and the Flood has been raging for 40 day and 40 nights. And yet, in the midst of all that, the narrator returns to Noah and the others all getting onto the Ark (which we've already been told about earlier this chapter) before continuing with the Flood account. Does this mean they entered the Ark two times? One time before the Flood, and another time during the Flood? No, of course not. But that's just another demonstration of the uniqueness of ancient Hebrew writings. They're not always linear.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

I think Nimrod would've been alive at the time of Peleg. I mean that's 100 or so years from when the Flood ended (and possibly not much longer than that). Ham would've easily had Cush and Cush had Nimrod by then. Nimrod may have even been an adult by then, but it's unlikely he was a ruler until after the Tower of Babel dispersion. Like you said, like the Bible says, 'the people were of one mind, united by a common goal'. That doesn't sound like there was anyone ruling over them at the time.

Yea this is a prevalent point indeed on the time frame and I do see some merit indeed in it given Peleg's name and more importantly it being expressed in the Bible. Though given their presumed extended ages by comparison of the Generation of Arphaxad like you have alluded to earlier in another post that means for them possibly being like 100-200 years old at the time is like them being your and my ages relatively. It also doesn't mean Nimrod was a mighty hunter yet or Asshur was literally building Assyria in nearly every way you can mean it lol.

Lady IS all right. Lol I don't fault Lady Is, lol I do get it though is tiresome the unbiblical sources especially Hyslop whose not even a primary source, but basically garbled the myths of the even more ancient greeks and Bible into his own mythology with his own anti-Catholic twists and legends of his time. That's why Semiramis figures into it as she was a perhaps mythological queen in western histories, a few of them actually. I suppose like how the modern creationist movement stuff is real interested in the Generations from Adam to Noah pre-flood stuff there is some big interest also in the Noah-Abraham times. Immediate Post-Flood to Abraham is after all like a thousand some years and the Genesis of basically all history/time and the current earth and the races and nations and cultures. Lol and yet due to its old age hardly a trace of much of it left and in the Bible it's all described in a few short pages. Lol Nimrod himself is only 3 short lines in Genesis 10 even talk about him lol.

Lady IS brings some good points though for instance this is after all in Shinar/Babylon at its founding. Babylon/Shinar is obviously not looked favorably upon later on in the story. Though at the same time this don't necessarily mean Nimrod was evil or did anything the pplz ascribe to him outside the Bible. Even other characters within the Bible both Israelite/Jewish and Gentile kings, some believed in God or God at least did good things for them. Even from big time enemy races/nations of the Jews like Naaman a Syrian, obviously right there one of the probable far later progeny of Asshur, being healed by God of leprosy, praise Jesus also is mentioned and confirmed in NT too by Jesus. Even Nineveh from the commoners to their king, even the animals, in Book of Jonah repent and spared by God, praise Jesus. Lol and even beloved Jonah angry, and I suppose I don't blame him, but it was good God calm his anger too.

Also the assumed/presumption Nimrod was alive or had all sorts of various mythological plotlines to do in regards to the Tower of Babel. However none of that is even fully known though as it's not fully specificed when Tower of Babel happened. We can deduce some clues about it, that it was obviously somewhat a few generations before Abraham, and sometime shortly before or during Nimrod and Asshur to Peleg and their generations in general were on the scene. It's what keeps I suppose the Balance of Ambiguity on Nimrod's character as a Hero, Villain, Or Indifferent King. Makes for an interesting topic I guess, somewhat different then the dulling grace vs hyper grace vs trinity vs Sabbath vs catholics debates. Also a reason I like all ya'll posts and like ya'll beyond the like button, praise Jesus may ya'll be loved.

 

[Is]

But Is, the events of Genesis 11 (save for excerpts of the geneaology that lead to Abram) all occur before the events of Genesis 10. Genesis 10 deals with Noah's descendants (by way of his sons) and how they dispersed after the Tower of Babel incident. Then Genesis 11 shows us what led to that dispersal in the first place. The chronology isn't linear and that's the way it happens sometimes in ancient Hebrew writings.

Think about this passage in Genesis 7. Do you notice anything strange?

[SUP]11 [/SUP]In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened. [SUP]12 [/SUP]The rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights. [SUP]13 [/SUP]On the very same day Noah with his sons, Shem and Ham and Japheth, and Noah’s wife and the three wives of his sons entered the ark, [SUP]14 [/SUP]they and every wild animal of every kind, and all domestic animals of every kind, and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every bird of every kind—every bird, every winged creature. [SUP]15 [/SUP]They went into the ark with Noah, two and two of all flesh in which there was the breath of life. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And those that entered, male and female of all flesh, went in as God had commanded him; and the Lord shut him in.[SUP] 17 [/SUP]The flood continued forty days on the earth; and the waters increased, and bore up the ark, and it rose high above the earth.

Noah and his family and all of the animals are already on the Ark and the Flood has been raging for 40 day and 40 nights. And yet, in the midst of all that, the narrator returns to Noah and the others all getting onto the Ark (which we've already been told about earlier this chapter) before continuing with the Flood account. Does this mean they entered the Ark two times? One time before the Flood, and another time during the Flood? No, of course not. But that's just another demonstration of the uniqueness of ancient Hebrew writings. They're not always linear.

Say what! all the word continue means is something that happens without interruption. It's clear they got on the ark and the rain fell without interruption for forty days and forty nights.

 

[Is]

Yea this is a prevalent point indeed on the time frame and I do see some merit indeed in it given Peleg's name and more importantly it being expressed in the Bible. Though given their presumed extended ages by comparison of the Generation of Arphaxad like you have alluded to earlier in another post that means for them possibly being like 100-200 years old at the time is like them being your and my ages relatively. It also doesn't mean Nimrod was a mighty hunter yet or Asshur was literally building Assyria in nearly every way you can mean it lol.

Lady IS all right. Lol I don't fault Lady Is, lol I do get it though is tiresome the unbiblical sources especially Hyslop whose not even a primary source, but basically garbled the myths of the even more ancient greeks and Bible into his own mythology with his own anti-Catholic twists and legends of his time. That's why Semiramis figures into it as she was a perhaps mythological queen in western histories, a few of them actually. I suppose like how the modern creationist movement stuff is real interested in the Generations from Adam to Noah pre-flood stuff there is some big interest also in the Noah-Abraham times. Immediate Post-Flood to Abraham is after all like a thousand some years and the Genesis of basically all history/time and the current earth and the races and nations and cultures. Lol and yet due to its old age hardly a trace of much of it left and in the Bible it's all described in a few short pages. Lol Nimrod himself is only 3 short lines in Genesis 10 even talk about him lol.

Lady IS brings some good points though for instance this is after all in Shinar/Babylon at its founding. Babylon/Shinar is obviously not looked favorably upon later on in the story. Though at the same time this don't necessarily mean Nimrod was evil or did anything the pplz ascribe to him outside the Bible. Even other characters within the Bible both Israelite/Jewish and Gentile kings, some believed in God or God at least did good things for them. Even from big time enemy races/nations of the Jews like Naaman a Syrian, obviously right there one of the probable far later progeny of Asshur, being healed by God of leprosy, praise Jesus also is mentioned and confirmed in NT too by Jesus. Even Nineveh from the commoners to their king, even the animals, in Book of Jonah repent and spared by God, praise Jesus. Lol and even beloved Jonah angry, and I suppose I don't blame him, but it was good God calm his anger too.

Also the assumed/presumption Nimrod was alive or had all sorts of various mythological plotlines to do in regards to the Tower of Babel. However none of that is even fully known though as it's not fully specificed when Tower of Babel happened. We can deduce some clues about it, that it was obviously somewhat a few generations before Abraham, and sometime shortly before or during Nimrod and Asshur to Peleg and their generations in general were on the scene. It's what keeps I suppose the Balance of Ambiguity on Nimrod's character as a Hero, Villain, Or Indifferent King. Makes for an interesting topic I guess, somewhat different then the dulling grace vs hyper grace vs trinity vs Sabbath vs catholics debates. Also a reason I like all ya'll posts and like ya'll beyond the like button, praise Jesus may ya'll be loved.

Seems to me it would have made a lot more sense if the Asshur of Genesis 10:11 is the son of Shem that Moses would have shown the cities he built after his name in (v.22) just as he did for Nimrod in (v.10) instead of jumping over and throwing Asshur into the section of the Sons of Ham. (v.20) says it is the "sons of Ham."

 

[Is]

Can anyone explain why, if Nimrod was a son of Ham is he listed in (v.8) after grandchildren instead of in (v.1) with Cush, Mizraim, Phut and Canaan as a son?

 

[GodIsSalvation]

Seems to me it would have made a lot more sense if the Asshur of Genesis 10:11 is the son of Shem that Moses would have shown the cities he built after his name in (v.22) just as he did for Nimrod in (v.10) instead of jumping over and throwing Asshur into the section of the Sons of Ham. (v.20) says it is the "sons of Ham."

Seems to me to still make sense as it is. The opening part of Chapter 10 is describing the first few generations of Japheth and Ham, the principal Gentile races, then a small portion about the basic formation of the first cities and nations, and then resumes with a general overview of Gentile-Shem's offspring which flows into the next chapter very well. Makes me think perhaps to Tintin's point of perhaps Tower of Babel occurring around time of Peleg, note that the chapter 10 end with the races spawning from Joktan. Thus ending the Table of Gentile nations at its last racial divergence with Peleg as the last forerunner to Abraham, Isaac, and Israel. Then in Genesis 11 resumes the racial focuses more on Peleg's progeny as they lead up to Abraham which then flows seamlessly into Chapter 12 about Abraham. Guess it's that Continuity point.

A good example I think be comparing Genesis 10's written structure within the Genesis narrative to Genesis 5 and how it flows with Genesis 4 & 6. Events in those chapters running somewhat concurrently with Chapter 5 merely being the pre-Flood Table of nations specifically on Seth's male line up to Noah, with a few events that are in truth only a few short lines that have mystified thinkers for centuries such as Enoch's taking, Noah's unnamed wife, when the fallen angel and nephilim stuff occurred, even whether or not Noah's carnal dad Lamech of House Seth was a somewhat good guy as indicated by his blessing of Noah or a bad guy that perished in the Flood by his comparatively shorter age than his predecessors. For that matter even how old were Shem, Ham, and Japheth when the Flood happened and who was the oldest brother lol.