The Greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” He called a little child and had him stand among them. And he said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. “And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. “Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.Matthew 18:1-9
No Eternal Security = No Salvation?
- Thread starter PennEd
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I did unswer your question so many time
The fact that Paul warn not not fall back mean there is posibility to fall back
You say Paul warn to Christian but not real believer?
Not real believer is not believer.
Remember you make analogy
unsave is like people under water
Save is people that out of the water
Paul warn not fall back to the water.
Logically speaking, Paul talk to people that out of the water
People under water not fall back to the water.
How people under water fall back to the water.
The fact that Paul warn not not fall back mean there is posibility to fall back
You say Paul warn to Christian but not real believer?
Not real believer is not believer.
Remember you make analogy
unsave is like people under water
Save is people that out of the water
Paul warn not fall back to the water.
Logically speaking, Paul talk to people that out of the water
People under water not fall back to the water.
How people under water fall back to the water.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
E
Ok, Good day.
You never answered how God, who has perfected ME forever according to the author of hebrews. And then say I can lose it. Meaning I am not really perfected forever. Which means the author lied. And is a fraud.
God day to you also.. Thanks for proving you have no desire to discuss anything.
You never answered how God, who has perfected ME forever according to the author of hebrews. And then say I can lose it. Meaning I am not really perfected forever. Which means the author lied. And is a fraud.
God day to you also.. Thanks for proving you have no desire to discuss anything.
In Hebrews 10:26, To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin - (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God - (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).
Hebrews 10:26 (AMPC) - For if we go on deliberately and willingly sinning after once acquiring the knowledge of the Truth (descriptive of unbelievers, not believers), there is no longer any sacrifice left to atone for [our] sins [no further offering to which to look forward].
Hebrews 10:26 (AMPC) - For if we go on deliberately and willingly sinning after once acquiring the knowledge of the Truth (descriptive of unbelievers, not believers), there is no longer any sacrifice left to atone for [our] sins [no further offering to which to look forward].
Is salvation a prize or a gift? (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8) In 1 Corinthians 9:24, Paul mentions - Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. That doesn't sound like the gift of eternal life to me. That sounds like an Olympic race where all run, but only one receives the gold medal. Would this mean that everyone else is disqualified from the race? Silver medal, bronze medal, no medal but finished the race, all disqualified from the race? 
-
1
- Show all
Is salvation a prize or a gift? (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8) In 1 Corinthians 9:24, Paul mentions - Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. That doesn't sound like the gift of eternal life to me. That sounds like an Olympic race where all run, but only one receives the gold medal. Would this mean that everyone else is disqualified from the race? Silver medal, bronze medal, no medal but finished the race, all disqualified from the race?
You need to do more than believe and wear God's name, you must also obey. If someone gave me a ticket to enter Disney land free of charge, I still must redeem it. If I go there without the ticket they will not let me through the gate- even if I say I had my ticket but i lost it. The bible shows the cobtrast- both "Well done good and faithful servant." and "Throw that lazy servant outside where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Salvation is for those who try with all their might to do what's right- to those will be granted forgiveness for the times that they failed. So yes it is a gift, but it is only given to the elite. Not everyone who is called to be a christian will receive it, the few who are chosen to receive it are those who run the race in such a way as to win, because on,y one out of many receives it. We have our ticket, but we must not lose it till the end. Salvation is not definite until you remain faithful till the very end. Saul, first King of Israel had the Holy Spirit, but because of his disobedience to God, God took His Spirit from him. It is not enough to get it and have it, you must keep it in order to enter the pearly gates.
John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. You were saying?
Moses did not make it into the promised land. (Mounters 20:1-12) Does that mean Moses was not saved? In Jude 1:5, we read that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. It's true that many will not be saved and only few will be saved by comparison, yet Jesus made it clear that only believers will be saved (John 3:15,16,18). Those who trust in works for salvation are not believers (Romans 3:22-28; 4:5-6; 1 Corinthians 1:18-21).
Must or else, huh? Obedience is not forced or legalistic for genuine believers. So according to your argument, how much obedience does it take? Where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you were "obedient enough" so now the Lord will be able to save you? Is that salvation through faith or salvation by works?
If someone offers me a free gift I still must receive it. Salvation is a free gift but we must receive it through faith. We do not work for a free gift, otherwise it's not a free gift. (Ephesians 2:8,9)
We have access by faith into grace.. (Romans 5:2) And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.. (Romans 11:6) You cannot seem to grasp that. You also must not confuse descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture. Who does the good and faithful servant represent? - believers. Who does the wicked, lazy servant represent? - unbelievers.
The parable does not identify the wicked, lazy servant as a Christian. "Buried his money in the ground, wicked, slothful, unprofitable servant who is cast into out darkness" is NOT descriptive of a Christian. You and I had this conversation before in a different thread and you asked and answered the questions - "Were the israélites God's people? Yes. Were all of His people saved? No." I said BINGO! The Israelites were referred to by God as "My servant whom I have chosen" (Isaiah 43:10) even though not all of the Israelites were saved.
So who defines "tried with all their might to do what's right" and "the elite?" Christ saves us through faith based on the merit of His finished work of redemption alone (Romans 3:24-28) and not based on the merits of our performance/works. It's obvious what you are trusting in for salvation.
So only those who win the gold medal in an Olympic race will not be disqualified for the prize YET everyone else will be disqualified from the race? -- according to your logic. So if salvation is a prize that we must work hard for and earn and not a gift according to your implied logic, how do you explain the varying degrees of rewards for believers at the judgment seat of Christ? -- who will receive rewards and suffer loss of reward in various degrees, yet will still be saved. (1 Corinthians 3:13-15)
Like a set of car keys?
Remaining faithful till the very end is descriptive of genuine believers. In Romans 8:30, we read - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty.
In the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit came upon such people as Joshua, David and even Saul. The Holy Spirit came upon these individuals for specific tasks. Once the task was completed, the Spirit presumably departed from that person. In the New Testament, the Holy Spirit only indwells believers and that indwelling is permanent (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30). In contrast to this work in the New Testament, the indwelling in the Old Testament was selective and temporary.
What bondage you must be under to bear the weight of eternity on the merits of your performance and have no assurance!
You were saying?Moses did not make it into the promised land. (Mounters 20:1-12) Does that mean Moses was not saved? In Jude 1:5, we read that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. It's true that many will not be saved and only few will be saved by comparison, yet Jesus made it clear that only believers will be saved (John 3:15,16,18). Those who trust in works for salvation are not believers (Romans 3:22-28; 4:5-6; 1 Corinthians 1:18-21).
Must or else, huh? Obedience is not forced or legalistic for genuine believers. So according to your argument, how much obedience does it take? Where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you were "obedient enough" so now the Lord will be able to save you? Is that salvation through faith or salvation by works?
If someone offers me a free gift I still must receive it. Salvation is a free gift but we must receive it through faith. We do not work for a free gift, otherwise it's not a free gift. (Ephesians 2:8,9)
We have access by faith into grace.. (Romans 5:2) And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.. (Romans 11:6) You cannot seem to grasp that. You also must not confuse descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture. Who does the good and faithful servant represent? - believers. Who does the wicked, lazy servant represent? - unbelievers.
The parable does not identify the wicked, lazy servant as a Christian. "Buried his money in the ground, wicked, slothful, unprofitable servant who is cast into out darkness" is NOT descriptive of a Christian. You and I had this conversation before in a different thread and you asked and answered the questions - "Were the israélites God's people? Yes. Were all of His people saved? No." I said BINGO! The Israelites were referred to by God as "My servant whom I have chosen" (Isaiah 43:10) even though not all of the Israelites were saved.
So who defines "tried with all their might to do what's right" and "the elite?" Christ saves us through faith based on the merit of His finished work of redemption alone (Romans 3:24-28) and not based on the merits of our performance/works. It's obvious what you are trusting in for salvation.
So only those who win the gold medal in an Olympic race will not be disqualified for the prize YET everyone else will be disqualified from the race? -- according to your logic. So if salvation is a prize that we must work hard for and earn and not a gift according to your implied logic, how do you explain the varying degrees of rewards for believers at the judgment seat of Christ? -- who will receive rewards and suffer loss of reward in various degrees, yet will still be saved. (1 Corinthians 3:13-15)
Like a set of car keys?
Remaining faithful till the very end is descriptive of genuine believers. In Romans 8:30, we read - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty.
In the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit came upon such people as Joshua, David and even Saul. The Holy Spirit came upon these individuals for specific tasks. Once the task was completed, the Spirit presumably departed from that person. In the New Testament, the Holy Spirit only indwells believers and that indwelling is permanent (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30). In contrast to this work in the New Testament, the indwelling in the Old Testament was selective and temporary.
What bondage you must be under to bear the weight of eternity on the merits of your performance and have no assurance!
-
1
- Show all
U
It is indeed terrible bondage and this so called Christian "dogma" that is being pushed by many popular self-styled internet and street preachers, indoctrinating unsuspecting people into this complete antithesis of the Gospel is plain tragic, but I think Paul had more stern words for these preachers but I will refrain.
SMH.....
SMH.....
-
3
- Show all
1COR. 9:27.
But, I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means,
when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.-rejected-reprobate-unfit.
HEB. 3:6.
But Christ as a Son over His own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing
of the hope firm unto the end.
1JOHN 2:2-3-4-5-6.
And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His Commandments.
He that saith, I know Him, and keeps not His Commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
But whoso keeps His Word, in him verily is The Love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in Him.
11PETER 2:20-21-22.
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ,
they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
For it had been better for them not to have known=recognized-ascertained' the way of Righteousness,
than, after they have known it, to turn from The Holy Commandment delivered unto them.
But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again;
and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
JOHN 8:51.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep My saying, he shall never see death.
ACTS 10:35.
But in every nation he that fears Him, and works righteousness, is accepted with Him.
ROMANS 11:22.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness,
if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
HEB. 10:35.
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
JOHN 14:15.
If you Love Me, keep My Commandments.
21.
He that has My Commandments, and keeps them, he it is that Loves Me: and he that Loves me
shall be Loved of My Father, and I will love him, and will manifest Myself to him.
15:10.
If you keep My Commandments, you shall abide in My Love; even as I have kept My Father's Commandments,
and abide in His Love.
1JOHN 2:24.
Let that therefore abide in you, which you have heard from the beginning. If that which you have heard
from the beginning shall remain in you, you also shall continue in The Son, and in The Father.
But, I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means,
when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.-rejected-reprobate-unfit.
HEB. 3:6.
But Christ as a Son over His own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing
of the hope firm unto the end.
1JOHN 2:2-3-4-5-6.
And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His Commandments.
He that saith, I know Him, and keeps not His Commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
But whoso keeps His Word, in him verily is The Love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in Him.
11PETER 2:20-21-22.
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ,
they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
For it had been better for them not to have known=recognized-ascertained' the way of Righteousness,
than, after they have known it, to turn from The Holy Commandment delivered unto them.
But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again;
and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
JOHN 8:51.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep My saying, he shall never see death.
ACTS 10:35.
But in every nation he that fears Him, and works righteousness, is accepted with Him.
ROMANS 11:22.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness,
if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
HEB. 10:35.
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
JOHN 14:15.
If you Love Me, keep My Commandments.
21.
He that has My Commandments, and keeps them, he it is that Loves Me: and he that Loves me
shall be Loved of My Father, and I will love him, and will manifest Myself to him.
15:10.
If you keep My Commandments, you shall abide in My Love; even as I have kept My Father's Commandments,
and abide in His Love.
1JOHN 2:24.
Let that therefore abide in you, which you have heard from the beginning. If that which you have heard
from the beginning shall remain in you, you also shall continue in The Son, and in The Father.
E
I do not know if you think a person should be to proud of who they think they are. Or too ignorant to understand how seperated from God people really are.
One thing I do know. If you think you can really really try hard and because of this God will forgive you. You are trusting your own work, your power and your will to get you to heaven. And refusing to understand WHY jesus went to the cross in the first place.
One thing I do know. If you think you can really really try hard and because of this God will forgive you. You are trusting your own work, your power and your will to get you to heaven. And refusing to understand WHY jesus went to the cross in the first place.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
The truth is that the deceiver has been deceiving from the beginning until now.
How would we know who were the ones that were deceived?
We know that Eve was deceived when she believed the deceiver and disobeyed God's command.
Who are the deceivers and who were deceived?
...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Matthew 24:10-14, 24
...For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15
...And those that were deceived believed in the deceivers mentioned above and disobeyed God's commands because they were made to believe that they would not surely die, IOW, "always saved". But scriptures warn us not to be deceived;
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.
Ephesians 5:6-7
...Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ” “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”..
Genesis 3:1-19
How would we know who were the ones that were deceived?
We know that Eve was deceived when she believed the deceiver and disobeyed God's command.
Who are the deceivers and who were deceived?
...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Matthew 24:10-14, 24
...For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15
...And those that were deceived believed in the deceivers mentioned above and disobeyed God's commands because they were made to believe that they would not surely die, IOW, "always saved". But scriptures warn us not to be deceived;
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.
Ephesians 5:6-7
...Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ” “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”..
Genesis 3:1-19
Of course you can't "lose" your salvation. It's not like a car key! Salvation is the complex word that describes the choosing by God the Father to adoption as a son, the gift of God the Holy Spirit to guide us, and the blood of Christ to appease God for the sins of His people. Ephesians. ..entire 1at chapter is affirming the Immutability of God and His sovereignty in salvation. Gift of God, remember, not a "reward" for a work of man. God the Father does NOT un-adopt His kids.
The greatest lesson in scripture is the return or the prodigal son, not only welcomed by the Father but given a celebration to express the joy of the return. The son was always a son, ...always. The relationship never changed. Born a son.
If man can choose salvation then he must be able to un-choose it. Otherwise what happened to his so-called "free" will? This is totally the arminian view of salvation.
The greatest lesson in scripture is the return or the prodigal son, not only welcomed by the Father but given a celebration to express the joy of the return. The son was always a son, ...always. The relationship never changed. Born a son.
If man can choose salvation then he must be able to un-choose it. Otherwise what happened to his so-called "free" will? This is totally the arminian view of salvation.
U
Thank You, UnderGrace for your clarification of a 'change' of 'mind and heart',..
WOW!!! I just read my response....now I know why you were concerned, it is not totally not what I was trying to write.Too funny
-
2
- Show all
