No soul sleep

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glf1

Active member
Jun 10, 2018
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#1
In Heb 11; We're told of those who have gone before us that we're faithful.
Then in Heb 12:1, we're told, "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us."
They can't be witnesses if they're asleep!
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#2
In Heb 11; We're told of those who have gone before us that we're faithful.
Then in Heb 12:1, we're told, "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us."
They can't be witnesses if they're asleep!
Are you suggesting that we reject the witness of people simply because they have died? :eek:

All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. Hebrews 11:13

And what of the number of witnesses we know who yet walk this world?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#3
They can't be witnesses if they're asleep!
Exactly. I already pointed this out in another thread. If there were witnesses at a crime scene or in a courtroom who were napping, they would not be witnesses.
 

glf1

Active member
Jun 10, 2018
314
124
43
#4
"To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."
There is a doctrine called soul sleep, which says that those who have died are asleep until they are resurrected. I'm trying to show that when we die we go to be with the Lord and yet are still aware of events here on the Earth...
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,789
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#5
Exactly. I already pointed this out in another thread. If there were witnesses at a crime scene or in a courtroom who were napping, they would not be witnesses.
If you reject the witness of people because they have died, you must then reject the whole of the Bible.
 
Feb 21, 2012
3,794
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#6
In Heb 11; We're told of those who have gone before us that we're faithful.
Then in Heb 12:1, we're told, "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us."
They can't be witnesses if they're asleep!
They are witnesses through the written word - Abraham and Sarah conceiving in their old age because they believed God, Abraham was willing to sacrifice his only begotten son, Isaac, knowing that God would raise him from the dead (a foreshadow of our Lord) is a witness to Abraham's belief. Noah, building the ark is a witness to Noah's belief in God - Moses' parents hid him for three months after he was born because they believed God had something in store for him and Moses refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh's daughter, choosing to be mistreated along with the people of God, looking forward to his reward all because he believed God, etc. . . . . All these recorded records are to instill in us belief in God and perseverance . . . . that is how they are witnesses.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,675
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#7
If you reject the witness of people because they have died, you must then reject the whole of the Bible.
What are you talking about?

Aren't you the one who is rejecting the witness of the Rich Man and Lazarus and Abraham, who were very much alive in Hades, even after they died on earth?

Christ was also very much alive in Hades, since He went there to preach to the spirits in prison (1 Peter 3:19). But His body was in the tomb. Which shows us that translating Sheol as "the grave was a HUGE MISTAKE.

What did Jesus say prophetically, and how was this fulfilled in reality?
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [Hades], neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Acts 2:27)

For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [Sheol]; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Psalm 16:10)
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,675
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#8
They are witnesses through the written word
False. They are witnesses watching Christians run their Christian race on earth.

Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses [PRESENT TENSE], let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, (Heb 12:1)
 
Feb 21, 2012
3,794
199
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#9
False. They are witnesses watching Christians run their Christian race on earth.
I can make the same remark - False. The dead can't see therefore they can't be watching anything. "the dead KNOW NOTHING" . . .
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,789
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#10
What are you talking about?
I am talking about Scripture. What are you talking about???

And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers Deut 31:16a

God said Moses would sleep with his fathers. Why do you reject the Word of God?

And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers 2 Sam 7:12a

God said David would sleep with his fathers. Why do you reject the Word of God?

Otherwise it shall come to pass, when my lord the king shall sleep with his fathers, that I and my son Solomon shall be counted offenders. 1 Kings 1:21

Again, God said David would sleep with his fathers. Why do you reject the Word of God?

And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be. Job 7:21

Job attests to death being as sleep. Why do you reject the Word of God?

So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. Job 14:12

Again Job attests to death being as sleep. Why do you reject the Word of God?

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:2

Daniel attests to death being as sleep. Why do you reject the Word of God?

He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn. Matt 9:24

You mock just as they scorned the words of Jesus, who likened death to sleep. Why do you reject the Word of Jesus?

And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth. Mark 5:39

Again Jesus likens death to sleep. Why do you reject the Word of Jesus?

And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth. Luke 8:52

Need I say it again? Those with ears to hear, let him hear. Why do you reject the Word of Jesus?


These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
John 11:11

Jesus again likens death to sleep. Why do you reject the Word of Jesus?

For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: Acts 13:36

How many times must it be said?

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 1 Thess 4:14
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,675
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#11
I can make the same remark - False. The dead can't see therefore they can't be watching anything. "the dead KNOW NOTHING" . . .
Already debunked. Read and study Luke 16.

If the righteous dead (who are actually alive in Christ and with Christ at present) can see nothing HOW CAN THEY BE CALLED WITNESSES? Witnesses are eye-witnesses, so that automatically refutes your misunderstanding.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,789
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#12
Already debunked. Read and study Luke 16.

If the righteous dead (who are actually alive in Christ and with Christ at present) can see nothing HOW CAN THEY BE CALLED WITNESSES? Witnesses are eye-witnesses, so that automatically refutes your misunderstanding.
So you reject the witness of all who lived before you? Wow. You then reject ALL of the Bible.
 
W

whatev

Guest
#13
"To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."
There is a doctrine called soul sleep, which says that those who have died are asleep until they are resurrected. I'm trying to show that when we die we go to be with the Lord and yet are still aware of events here on the Earth...
I have to disagree that soul sleep is a doctrine. Doctrines are things that we believe from the Bible. Soul sleep is some nonsense made in the 70s, but is not biblical.

https://www.gotquestions.org/soul-sleep.html

And why would you want to show people still aware of what's going on on earth, if our whole purpose is to love and worship the Lord forever? If I see earth, all I see is sorrow. That dismisses the "no more weeping and tears" the Lord promised us.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,789
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#14
They are witnesses through the written word - Abraham and Sarah conceiving in their old age because they believed God, Abraham was willing to sacrifice his only begotten son, Isaac, knowing that God would raise him from the dead (a foreshadow of our Lord) is a witness to Abraham's belief. Noah, building the ark is a witness to Noah's belief in God - Moses' parents hid him for three months after he was born because they believed God had something in store for him and Moses refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh's daughter, choosing to be mistreated along with the people of God, looking forward to his reward all because he believed God, etc. . . . . All these recorded records are to instill in us belief in God and perseverance . . . . that is how they are witnesses.
According to Nehemiah, a witness must be alive, yet according to the Bible, those witnesses have died. Of course, to justify their outrageous claims, they rationalize that dead does not mean dead. They furthermore reject the witness of the prophets and Jesus Himself, Who likened death to sleep. Yes, it is in the Bible, though someone has just said the idea was cooked up during our generation :eek: How pathetic is that?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,675
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#15
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 1 Thess 4:14
This verse AUTOMATICALLY REFUTES your false doctrine. So it is good that you quoted it.

Please note "will God bring with Him". Since Christ is in Heaven, and soul sleep claims that the righteous dead are sleeping in their graves, how in the world would Christ -- from Heaven -- "bring" those who are in their graves (according to you and the cults) at the Rapture? That would be a TOTAL ABSURDITY.

Those who "sleep" in Jesus are simply those who died in Christ, and their bodies appear to be sleeping in their graves when put to rest (initially). Later on the bodies become dust. But their souls and spirits are alive in Heaven with Christ, who will "bring" them from Heaven to join them with their immortal, resurrected, and glorified bodies.

Now please note carefully the connection between the body sleeping in the grave and the soul and spirit being very much alive with Christ (since there is no sleeping in Heaven).

And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles. And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him. (Acts 7:59,60; 8:1,2).

So what do we see here?

Although Stephen is reported as being dead (because of the stoning) the Bible says "he fell asleep". Only a dishonest person would claim that he was merely sleeping. But what did Stephen say about his spirit, and where was Christ when He was addressed by Stephen? Christ was in Heaven, and Stephen asked Him IN HEAVEN to receive his spirit. So upon death the soul and spirit of Stephen went to be with Christ (and be very much alive), but his dead body appeared to be sleeping the grave.

Can you see how this incident TOTALLY DEBUNKS soul sleep?
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
83
#16
Exactly. I already pointed this out in another thread. If there were witnesses at a crime scene or in a courtroom who were napping, they would not be witnesses.
The cloud of witness is referring to the written record.

John 3:
13) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Acts 2:
29) Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
34) For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,789
26,643
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#17
This verse AUTOMATICALLY REFUTES your false doctrine. So it is good that you quoted it.

Please note "will God bring with Him". Since Christ is in Heaven, and soul sleep claims that the righteous dead are sleeping in their graves, how in the world would Christ -- from Heaven -- "bring" those who are in their graves (according to you and the cults) at the Rapture? That would be a TOTAL ABSURDITY.

Those who "sleep" in Jesus are simply those who died in Christ, and their bodies appear to be sleeping in their graves when put to rest (initially). Later on the bodies become dust. But their souls and spirits are alive in Heaven with Christ, who will "bring" them from Heaven to join them with their immortal, resurrected, and glorified bodies.

Now please note carefully the connection between the body sleeping in the grave and the soul and spirit being very much alive with Christ (since there is no sleeping in Heaven).
And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles. And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him. (Acts 7:59,60; 8:1,2).

So what do we see here?

Although Stephen is reported as being dead (because of the stoning) the Bible says "he fell asleep". Only a dishonest person would claim that he was merely sleeping. But what did Stephen say about his spirit, and where was Christ when He was addressed by Stephen? Christ was in Heaven, and Stephen asked Him IN HEAVEN to receive his spirit. So upon death the soul and spirit of Stephen went to be with Christ (and be very much alive), but his dead body appeared to be sleeping the grave.

Can you see how this incident TOTALLY DEBUNKS soul sleep?
Only a dishonest person? Wow, you just called Jesus a liar.

Jesus also said nobody but Him had gone to heaven. What is the name of your cult again?
 
W

whatev

Guest
#18
Exactly. I already pointed this out in another thread. If there were witnesses at a crime scene or in a courtroom who were napping, they would not be witnesses.
Suddenly, I feel like I need to know what's going on in every post to figure out what's happening on this forum.

And I'm beginning to think I need to color code my words too.

Color me confused.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
83
#19
What are you talking about?

Aren't you the one who is rejecting the witness of the Rich Man and Lazarus and Abraham, who were very much alive in Hades, even after they died on earth?
You cannot, or should not, get your doctrine from a parable, especially when is contradicts so many scripture explaining what death is.

Christ was also very much alive in Hades, since He went there to preach to the spirits in prison (1 Peter 3:19). But His body was in the tomb. Which shows us that translating Sheol as "the grave was a HUGE MISTAKE.
Christ witnessed to the imprisoned spirits after he was resurrected. He didn't do anything while he was dead. He was dead.

What did Jesus say prophetically, and how was this fulfilled in reality?
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [Hades], neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Acts 2:27)

For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [Sheol]; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Psalm 16:10)
Right. After he had been dead for three days and three nights, the Father raised him from the dead.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,789
26,643
113
#20
This verse AUTOMATICALLY REFUTES your false doctrine. So it is good that you quoted it.

Please note "will God bring with Him". Since Christ is in Heaven, and soul sleep claims that the righteous dead are sleeping in their graves, how in the world would Christ -- from Heaven -- "bring" those who are in their graves (according to you and the cults) at the Rapture? That would be a TOTAL ABSURDITY.
I can leave home and pick up things to bring with me from elsewhere. You simply show a shocking inability to understand anything.