"Not by works" - false!

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Apr 21, 2020
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* just to dive in, what you are teaching is lordship salvation.

saved by belief, salvation maintained by good works, abstaining from sin, etc.. however one chooses to phase it.

this is what the user judges teaches.

it is backdoor works salvationism. you folks that teach it can't see it because you correctly state that one is saved by belief, but then you keep talking and undercut what you just said.

so, there you go.
I have to admit that I'm not familiar with some of the words used to describe particular doctrines.

I'm a new Christian, I have a lot to learn, and I'm not up on Christian lingo!

However, I do believe that we have a duty to keep God's commandments.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
By the way, You accused me of being a liar. I am still waiting for the proof?

Or were you just doing like you always do. Attacking a person because you do not like what they say?
Not to mention that is not even close to anything @dcontroversal has ever stated.

More slander
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
* just to dive in, what you are teaching is lordship salvation.

saved by belief, salvation maintained by good works, abstaining from sin, etc.. however one chooses to phase it.

this is what the user judges teaches.

it is backdoor works salvationism. you folks that teach it can't see it because you correctly state that one is saved by belief, but then you keep talking and undercut what you just said.

so, there you go.
The problem is they are of the same mind.
 

MyrtleTrees

Junior Member
Sep 5, 2014
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2 Peter 2:1
"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them, bringing swift destruction on themselves".


I would like to contend that the notion that salvation is given to us ONLY in return for believing in Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior is INCOMPLETE.


We ARE asked to believe in Jesus Christ for salvation:
Acts 16:30-31
" "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household" ".


HOWEVER, Jesus repeatedly told people to stop sinning, and we are warned that if we deliberately/knowingly continue in sin following the acceptance of Jesus into our lives, Jesus' sacrifice will NOT cover these sins:
Hebrews 10:26
"Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins".

This of course makes sense.
If we SAY we follow Jesus but continue rebelling against God, then are we REALLY following Jesus?
Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter".


So then, we must accept Jesus into our lives and believe in him.
AND we must also stop rebelling against God, even after we have accepted Jesus into our lives.


What I have said may be obvious to many, but all the time I hear excuses from Christians to justify their sinning:
"Nobody is perfect" - nobody has said that you are
"God will forgive me" - actually, according to Matt 7:21, if you continue to sin after accepting Jesus, Jesus' sacrifice won't cover your sin (verse above)
"We're human, and humans are fallible" - typical excuse!
"It is impossible not to sin, as we are not perfect" - this article sums it up very well: https://www.gotquestions.org/go-and-sin-no-more.html
Have you heard these kind of excuses too?


Christians have no excuses for deliberately/knowingly sinning:
1 John 1:6
"If, then, we say that we have fellowship with him, yet at the same time live in the darkness, we are lying both in our words and in our actions".
Well said and true! As the sheep and goats parable of Matthew 25 shows, many who think they are Christians will sadly find out that they aren't! So much better to make sure one is saved and be willing to live in obedience to God's Word, than to end up in hell!
 
Apr 21, 2020
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Well said and true! As the sheep and goats parable of Matthew 25 shows, many who think they are Christians will sadly find out that they aren't! So much better to make sure one is saved and be willing to live in obedience to God's Word, than to end up in hell!
The trouble is that what I'm dealing with on this thread is people who do not want to keep God's commandments.
They want salvation and they say the follow Jesus, but they think their faith in Jesus gives them a free pass to sin and be forgiven no matter how they behave.

These people accuse you of preaching a 'salvation by works' gospel simply for saying that we should keep God's commandments.

John 14:15
"If you love me, keep my commandments"
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
The trouble is that what I'm dealing with on this thread is people who do not want to keep God's commandments.
They want salvation and they say the follow Jesus, but they think their faith in Jesus gives them a free pass to sin and be forgiven no matter how they behave.

These people accuse you of preaching a 'salvation by works' gospel simply for saying that we should keep God's commandments.

John 14:15
"If you love me, keep my commandments"
Wrong
And you avoid being direct.... what saves commandment keeping or faith in Christ Jesus apart from works... or is it both?
 
Apr 21, 2020
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Wrong
And you avoid being direct.... what saves commandment keeping or faith in Christ Jesus apart from works... or is it both?
I believe that we are saved by our faith in Jesus Christ.

We will never be able to stop sinning despite our best efforts, but Jesus makes up for this shortfall.
However we do have a duty to keep God's commandments - do you disagree?

I think that if a Christian flagrantly disobeys God, Jesus' sacrifice will not cover those sins:
Hebrews 10:26
"Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins".

Are you saying that we can flagrantly willfully continue disobeying God and be forgiven regardless of how we behave?
 
May 22, 2020
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just to dive in, what you are teaching is lordship salvation.

saved by belief, salvation maintained by good works, abstaining from sin, etc.. however one chooses to phase it.
I do not agree with your definition of Lordship Salvation. Instead of salvation maintained by good works I would define it as:
salvation evidenced by good works.

Excerpt from https://www.gotquestions.org/lordship-salvation.html
Lordship salvation teaches that a true profession of faith will be backed up by evidence of faith. If a person is truly following the Lord, then he or she will obey the Lord’s instructions. A person who is living in willful, unrepentant sin has obviously not chosen to follow Christ, because Christ calls us out of sin and into righteousness. Indeed, the Bible clearly teaches that faith in Christ will result in a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 5:22–23; James 2:14–26).

Lordship salvation is not a salvation-by-works doctrine. Advocates of lordship salvation are careful to say that salvation is by grace alone, that believers are saved before their faith ever produces any good works, and that Christians can and do sin. However, true salvation will inevitably lead to a changed life. The saved will be dedicated to their Savior. A true Christian will not feel comfortable living in unconfessed, unforsaken sin.

Granted, the subtle difference is often confused. I think @DBurrage believes in salvation evidenced by good works; but can't articulate it consistently. (Aside: obviously, if person is inconsistent, then not possible to be sure.)

I think the last 2 days the main argument is about the difference between:
1) salvation maintained by good works or
2) salvation evidenced by good works

Some grasp the difference, some can't articulate the difference, some don't know the difference.
IMO

Aside: or maybe it me that can't grasp the difference ... :eek:
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
I believe that we are saved by our faith in Jesus Christ.

We will never be able to stop sinning despite our best efforts, but Jesus makes up for this shortfall.
However we do have a duty to keep God's commandments - do you disagree?

I think that if a Christian flagrantly disobeys God, Jesus' sacrifice will not cover those sins:
Hebrews 10:26
"Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins".

Are you saying that we can flagrantly willfully continue disobeying God and be forgiven regardless of how we behave?
Well you have a problem then...

New American Standard Bible
for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Romans 11:29

Scripture does not contradict itself,
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
I do not agree with your definition of Lordship Salvation. Instead of salvation maintained by good works I would define it as:
salvation evidenced by good works.

Excerpt from https://www.gotquestions.org/lordship-salvation.html
Lordship salvation teaches that a true profession of faith will be backed up by evidence of faith. If a person is truly following the Lord, then he or she will obey the Lord’s instructions. A person who is living in willful, unrepentant sin has obviously not chosen to follow Christ, because Christ calls us out of sin and into righteousness. Indeed, the Bible clearly teaches that faith in Christ will result in a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 5:22–23; James 2:14–26).

Lordship salvation is not a salvation-by-works doctrine. Advocates of lordship salvation are careful to say that salvation is by grace alone, that believers are saved before their faith ever produces any good works, and that Christians can and do sin. However, true salvation will inevitably lead to a changed life. The saved will be dedicated to their Savior. A true Christian will not feel comfortable living in unconfessed, unforsaken sin.

Granted, the subtle difference is often confused. I think @DBurrage believes in salvation evidenced by good works; but can't articulate it consistently. (Aside: obviously, if person is inconsistent, then not possible to be sure.)

I think the last 2 days the main argument is about the difference between:
1) salvation maintained by good works or
2) salvation evidenced by good works

Some grasp the difference, some can't articulate the difference, some don't know the difference.
IMO

Aside: or maybe it me that can't grasp the difference ... :eek:

This is lordship salvation in a nutshell... submission along with saved by grace through faith


"Submission to the will of God, to Christ’s lordship, and to the guiding of the Spirit is an essential, not an optional, part of saving faith" (EPHESIANS, p. 249).
MacArthur
 
Apr 21, 2020
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Well you have a problem then...

New American Standard Bible
for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Romans 11:29

Scripture does not contradict itself,
That depends on when you think we achieve salvation.
Do you think we achieve salvation on this Earth, in this life, or do you think we get saved on the day of judgement when we are not judged?
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
That depends on when you think we achieve salvation.
Do you think we achieve salvation on this Earth, in this life, or do you think we get saved on the day of judgement when we are not judged?
Oh so now you are willing to reveal yourself..... about time.

We do not achieve or attain salvation

Salvation is a gift given and received in this lifetime.
 
Apr 21, 2020
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Oh so now you are willing to reveal yourself..... about time.

We do not achieve or attain salvation

Salvation is a gift given and received in this lifetime.
So what do you say of people who call themselves Christians but live in sin?

I'll use one example (I could use many):
An open homosexual who says he follows Jesus.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
So what do you say of people who call themselves Christians but live in sin?

I'll use one example (I could use many):
An open homosexual who says he follows Jesus.
What do you say to the person who wants to know which act of sin is not covered and paid for by the cross?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
30,521
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Jesus said to keep his commandments, did he not?
Or is he lying?
does He say "unless you keep my commandments you will die in your sins"

or does He say "unless you believe that I AM you will die in your sins"

?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
30,521
9,992
113
Did He say "unless you keep my commandments you will die in your sins"

Or did He say "unless you believe that I AM you will die in your sins"

?
BTW before I get falsely accused, no I am not saying "don't bother doing righteous works and walking in obedience"

Yes He says if you love Him, keep His instruction.

But does He say we have life by works or does He say we have life by believing on Him?
 
Apr 21, 2020
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Did He say "unless you keep my commandments you will die in your sins"

Or did He say "unless you believe that I AM you will die in your sins"

?
It's not one or the other, it's both.

We must have faith and Jesus AND keep his commandments.
If we deliberately continue sinning after receiving Jesus' into our lives, Jesus' sacrifice will not cover those sins:

Hebrews 10:26
"Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins."

The problem here is that this goes against the wooly and fluffy doctrine that other commentors on this thread have been fed.