Not by works, not by "only believe", and not by faith alone either

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Sep 25, 2017
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You keep saying Christ's faith as if we have no faith at all. In 1 Peter 1:9, we read - receiving the end of YOUR (not Christ's) faith--the salvation of your souls. Christ is the author and finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2), but it's still OUR faith in Christ that saves us.

"Work of God/what God requires" in John 6:29 does not imply that WE do not believe in Him whom He has sent. Although we are commanded to believe and will be held accountable for unbelief (John 3:18), saving faith is never exclusively a matter of human decision. Unless the Father draws us (John 6:44) and enables us/unless it has been granted to him by My Father (John 6:65) we would NEVER come to believe in Christ for salvation all by ourselves.

The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose Christ, we must choose Him. The impulse to faith in Christ comes from God.

Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. It sounds to me like you are trying to make BOTH faith AND works the root of salvation and it also sounds like you are DEFINING faith as WORKS. Common error among works-salvationists.

I'm not pitting James against Paul at all. I am properly harmonizing scripture with scripture. In 1 Thessalonians 1:3, notice the words "work of" faith, "labor of" love and "patience of" hope in 1 Thessalonians 1:3.

These are the practical outworking of the Thessalonians' conversion. The "work" the Thessalonians do is a "result or consequence of" their faith. So too their "labor" flows from love and their "endurance" comes from hope. *Work "of" faith does not mean that faith in essence is the work accomplished.

Hebrews 11:1 - Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Their work is a result or consequence "of" their faith. The work done is "of" faith or done "out of" faith. Faith was already established at conversion and then the work "followed" as a result or consequence "of" faith. You are trying to turn work "of" faith into work "is" faith. You make no distinction between faith AND works that "follow" as a "result of" faith.

Christ is the author and finisher of OUR faith. (Hebrews 12:2)

What church do you attend?

There is a difference between God's will for us to BECOME saved (John 6:40) and God's will for us AFTER we have been saved through faith.

Are you one of those "KJV only" people? James 2:1 - My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. (NASB)

Eisegesis - is the process of interpreting a text or portion of text in such a way that the process introduces one's own presuppositions, agendas, or biases into and onto the text.

Faith "of" our Lord Jesus Christ simply means faith "in" our Lord Jesus Christ, as we see in numerous translations - (HCSB; ESV; NASB; NCV; NIV; NRS). James 2 is discussing "our" faith, not Christ's faith, as if Christ needs faith in Himself in order to save Himself.
This will stun some of you but it’s true. Jesus was created. That’s could be why the devil tried so hard to get rid of him...
 

mailmandan

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Apr 7, 2014
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Thanks

Its the faithfulness of His work that he works in sinners to both will and do His good pleasure. Removing the faith of God from the picture as the work of God is the cause of the fall.. men put their faith in respect to that seen the creature, doing the pleasure of the will of the father of lies. Not having the faith of Him unseen. God did not want them to learn by experience but rather trust the voice of Him who remains unseen.
I'm not questioning the faithfulness of God, and God works in believers to both will and do His good pleasure. "Faith of God, work of God, cause of the fall, not having the faith of Him unseen?" Why is it always about faith "of" God and not faith "in" God with you? :confused:
 

mailmandan

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This will stun some of you but it’s true. Jesus was created. That’s could be why the devil tried so hard to get rid of him...
I'm not stunned that you believe such heresy, but Jesus is not a created being. This may stun you, but it's true that JESUS IS GOD.
 
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7seasrekeyed

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I'm not stunned that you believe such heresy, but Jesus is not a created being. This may stun you, but it's true that JESUS IS GOD.

dude wants a big letter 'B' for his sweater

to go with his 'T' for troll
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
What do you think “ the beginning of ALL creation means
inevitable ocurred, nonetheless, for the record:


26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; Gen 1

Amen

 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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This will stun some of you but it’s true. Jesus was created. That’s could be why the devil tried so hard to get rid of him...

I don't see how it will stun?

Jesus was fully God and fully man. You have read concerning Jesus' incarnation? God became flesh, so yes the flesh was created. But God was not created!

Isaiah 9:6
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 7:14
"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.

Luke 1:35
The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

Philippians 2:6-7
6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.




 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
I don't see how it will stun?

Jesus was fully God and fully man. You have read concerning Jesus' incarnation? God became flesh, so yes the flesh was created. But God was not created!

Isaiah 9:6
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 7:14
"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.

Luke 1:35
The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

Philippians 2:6-7
6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.





phil he received his big letter B

but great verses to illustrate otherwise anyway
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
This will stun some of you but it’s true. Jesus was created. That’s could be why the devil tried so hard to get rid of him...

Well that should be your ticket out of here. Oh wait. Is that the big B I see under your name?

 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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Believing is exercising (working ) called faith .Cannot separate faith from works or believing from works.
The Bible NOWHERE says that man is saved through faith AND works of faith.
It sounds a little contradictory but I think I know what you mean.
Perhaps both you and Dan continue to misunderstand what I have been saying as far as works go.
I don't mean works of the law or even good works, which thing Mr. Dan cannot seem to separate from works of faith.
As I stated many times over, and as the bible clearly states, we are not, nor do I believe that we are saved by works, nor faith and good works.
I agree that you cannot separate faith and the biblical view of believing from works.
I have been trying to make a distinction between works of the law, which is based on merit, good works, which requires no faith and anyone can do, from works of faith, which cannot be a work of faith without the moving of God's hand in the situation. Like the works Jesus, Paul, and the apostles did. Works such as cleansing the lepers, healing the sick, casting out devils, ...and the like. We cannot do these works without the hand of God, but me have to do a work of faith first before God's hand moves. Look at almost EVERY situation involving man in the bible, and you will see, before God moved, someone did something in faith, first.
There's only one kind of God like faith, and it the same kind needed and necessary for salvation. We have to ACT on that belief before God moves, even to save a soul.
Again, this has nothing to do with works of the law or good works like giving to the poor, praying, or anything else that doesn't require faith to bear fruit.
If you have money to give to the poor, what faith is needed to do so? There is none. You don't need God to move for you to be ABLE to give, you simply give because you have it and want to give. That is a GOOD WORK.
Now if you want to give and don't have the money to give, now you have to pray to God for it, and believe that it is already given when you prayed, and then act on that belief, then God is obligated to fulfill His word and give you the money so you can give what you desired. This is a work of faith, because God's hand is needed for it to bear fruit or manifest in the natural. And God can't give you less than what you asked for, and neither should you do anything with the money other than what you promised God. If you then keep the money, then God will put a curse on you, which includes your family members, the money you asked for, and all that you own.
I hope you both see and understand the difference between the two.
One needs the hand of God and the others don't.
 
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know1

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So I guess that people who are unable to speak (moot) are just out of luck?
There is more than one form of communication we can do even if they are mute.
For instance, one can use sign language, or simply breath the words without using their voice as Hannah did, and notice that God both heard and answered her.

1Sa 1:12 And it came to pass, as she continued praying before the LORD, that Eli marked her mouth.
1Sa 1:13 Now Hannah, she spake in her heart; only her lips moved, but her voice was not heard: therefore Eli thought she had been drunken.

As for simply believing, it is written that "death and LIFE is in the power of the [YOUR] tongue, not your believing. No voice mentioned as needed.
Again, it is written "I create the fruit of the LIPS", not that of the mind or even that of the heart by simply believing. God creates your salvation when you move your lips. And there's nothing in there that says you have to use your voice either.
Paul said he preached the gospel saying believe with your heart unto righteousness and with your mouth, no voice needed, salvation is made, because God creates the fruit of your lips and life is in the power of your tongue. All of which speaks of the person being the initiator. God draws us, but we still have to act on that prompting when we believe, otherwise, nothing will happen. Simply believing in Jesus without any action on your part is like James said, it's dead.
It is all through the bible.
 

know1

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Aug 27, 2012
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Believe the gospel then do nothing is an oxymoron. Faith without works is dead. *All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful.
Tell me, if a pastor stands up and preaches the gospel to his congregation, does that mean, or is that your definition of, a genuine believer producing fruit? Or some of the congregation going out preaching salvation through Jesus Christ to people on the streets. Does that make that person a genuine believer producing fruit?
What's the difference between that pastor and say, a JW going out and preaching what they believe to be the gospel.
What is your understanding of the kind of works a true believer does? What works makes a believer fruitful?
What about you? What works do you do that shows your faith and produces fruit?
Please be specific. There are too many generalities and obscurity in your definitions. I'm having difficulty seeing exactly what kind of works of faith you are speaking of. thx
 

know1

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Aug 27, 2012
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The word translated faith is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and is defined as follows: #4102; pistis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity. The word translated believe is from the greek word pisteuō which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ)."

The word "believe" can describe mere "mental assent" (James 2:19) or also include "trust and reliance" (Acts 16:31). The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe in Christ for salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. This belief results in actions appropriate to the belief - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief.
Since both words are two forms of the same word and you see that faith, being the noun, requires works in order for it to work, how much more should the verb form require action for it to line up with the noun form?

2Co 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed [in my heart], and therefore have I spoken; we also believe [in our hearts], and therefore speak;

And that is the same word Paul preached.
Believing in your heart on the lord Jesus to be righteousness in the eyes of God, but not saved.
Confessing with your mouth unto salvation.
Just because one is made righteous, does not automatically make that person born again.
Paul says one confesses Jesus before salvation is made. He says that is what CAUSES salvation to be made.
It is not made if one does not confess or act on that belief in Jesus.
 

know1

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Aug 27, 2012
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Works produced out of faith are good works. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord is an expression of faith, not a work for salvation.
On the contrary, confessing Jesus as your lord is indeed a work of faith.

Joh 11:43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
Joh 11:44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Joh 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

According to Jesus, casting out a spirit with His word and commanding Lazarus to come forth with the same said word, is a work.

So yes, speaking words in faith is a work of faith, even as it was called a work by Jesus.
 

know1

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Aug 27, 2012
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ATT:
KNOW 1

well I'm late to the thread, but here goes anyway (and if this has been covered, sorry...maybe just give me the short answer because I am not sure what you are saying



what exactly are you saying above? ^^^ I seriously want to know exactly what you mean by that statement

thanks
Sorry it took me so long to get back to your post but I've been a little busy as of late.
For one to receive salvation they must hear the gospel of Jesus Christ, for faith comes by hearing.
If you hear that Jesus loves you and that's all, would it be possible for you to receive Jesus or believe on Him or in His name?
No.
For one to get saved they have to hear and act on the message of salvation.
What about if that person wanted God to heal them but they are told that God will heal them if it's His will and you won't know that until it happens.
Will any healing take place.
No, because they have to hear the message of healing for them to have knowledge of and faith for their healing.
We are saved BY the word of God even as it was the word of God that made the worlds and all that is today.
Do you understand yet?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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God draws us, but we still have to act on that prompting when we believe, otherwise, nothing will happen. Simply believing in Jesus without any action on your part is like James said, it's dead.
It is all through the bible.
It's not that we must act but we will act. Simply believing without any action to follow is not truly believing. That would be an empty profession of faith and not authentic faith. The action (works) which follows believing is the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of genuine belief/faith, but not the essence of belief/faith and not the means of our salvation. Also, once again faith and confession are not two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together (Romans 10:8-10).
 

mailmandan

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Apr 7, 2014
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On the contrary, confessing Jesus as your lord is indeed a work of faith.

Joh 11:43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
Joh 11:44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Joh 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

According to Jesus, casting out a spirit with His word and commanding Lazarus to come forth with the same said word, is a work.

So yes, speaking words in faith is a work of faith, even as it was called a work by Jesus.
So you are sticking to your erroneous argument that those who believe unto righteousness today (remain lost) until later, after they confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord a week later? :rolleyes:

You seem determined to believe that you are saved by works. As I said before, confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together (Romans 10:8-10). Also, this confession is an expression of faith, not a work for salvation. The word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart TOGETHER. That's the point. Not that believing in Christ is insufficient to save until we accomplish confession as a work of merit for salvation afterwards in order to become saved. If that was the case, then these passages of scripture would be a lie - John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31 etc..

So you are using the example of Jesus' words as a work to justify your belief that confession is a work of merit for salvation? What other works are you trusting in for salvation?
 
Mar 28, 2016
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I'm not questioning the faithfulness of God, and God works in believers to both will and do His good pleasure. "Faith of God, work of God, cause of the fall, not having the faith of Him unseen?" Why is it always about faith "of" God and not faith "in" God with you? :confused:
Hard to explain I can try.

As always he must do the first works .It is the work of God working in the believer to both will and do his good pleasure A imputed righteousness in respect to the work of God by which we can believe Him not of our own selves. Without His faith working in us we cannot please him.

I would suggest there are two kinds of faiths as works. Seeing faith without any kind of work is considered dead works, coming from a dead faith.

The supernatural having no beginning as the things exclusively of God. and natural as dead with no power to work to commune with God which is called “no faith” a froward generation the generation of Adam as the things of men

Deuteronomy 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

That would describe the faith or belief of natural man without God. It is shown in Hebrew 6:1 as a faith “in” offered towards a god that come from the heart of natural man called the imaginations of one own heart therefore making the heart of man a source of faith.

It would describe the faith of belief of an Atheist. No God of the scriptures in their heart they have become their own gods and violate the first commandment by having them self as a god they put before our actual faithful Creator. Christians are given a new heart as a result of God’s new creation.

Because it does not come “from” God or “of” God the author of our new living faith, scripture refers to it as “no faith” .It would be a false zeal as the things of natural man.

The supernatural faith of God has no beginning it can create substance out of non-substance. It can actively work in a person who does not have the kind faith required to believe God seeing it is not of us even though we do have its power in us .

We have faith in him because we are found of Him .By the faith of Christ that works in us to both will and do his good pleasure we can offer the fruit of our mouths in thanksgiving as faith towards him our amen. Acknowledging we have heard him as he does work in us giving us ear to hear what the Spirit of Christ is saying to the churches.. .

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

You could ask what if the person does not believe,(the cause of His faith working in us) like those in Hebrews 6 (those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come ( no faith ),

Will their unbelief(no faith) make the faith of God without effect ,(to effect is to work ) We cannot have faith in or towards God unless does the first work of giving us the hearing of His faith.

Christians when they become atheistic in their hearts (no faith) as a way of denying God in unbelief (no faith) they have lost their first love, "hearing God" . They would be required to do the first works.... Believe God and not trust their own hearts as false source of the faith . His word is required to believe God as he does work in us to both will and do His good pleasure .

O foolish (no faith of God) Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the "hearing of faith?"(God’s) Are ye so foolish? (no faith of God) having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the "hearing of faith?" Gal 3:1-5

By the hearing of faith? (hearing what God says to the churches and not what does man say as if sinners like the Nicolaitanes could be a source of His faith.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
The title of this thread is defensless.

It is of works, or it is of grace (through faith) apart from works.

there is no other option found in scripture

If it is not of faith alone, it is of works, If it is of works, it is of faith in self (works) not faith in God.

There is no other option. You trust Christ, Or you trust self.