Not By Works

[Hizikyah]

If we have to keep the Law, then the Christ keeping it for us was useless.

Yahshua/Jesus says different; " but whosoever will do and teach them"

Mat 5:18-19, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh – the smallest of the letters – will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected. Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of YHWH; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of YHWH."

Revelation 12:17, “And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to fight with the remnant of her seed, those guarding the commands of Yah and possessing the witness of יהושעMessiah."

Revelation 14:12, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the commands of Yah and the belief of יהושע.”

Mat 7:12-14, "Therefore, all things you want men to do to you, do the same to them, for this is the (intent of the) Law and the Prophets. Enter in through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who go that way. Because straight is the gate, and narrow is the way which leads to life, and few there are who find it."

John/Yahanan 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

 

[SovereignGrace]

Just to add the more I do on Friday the less I have to do on Sabbath.. example clean and buy provisions.. the more rest I have.. or more time to to good whatever GOD brings my way.

Are you SDA? Just wondering, as you said the more you do Friday the less you have to do on the Sabbath.

 

[Hizikyah]

Just to add the more I do on Friday the less I have to do on Sabbath.. example clean and buy provisions.. the more rest I have.. or more time to to good whatever GOD brings my way.

"Repairer of the Breach!"

Isayah 58:11-14, "YHWH will guide you continually, and satisfy your soul in drought, and make fat; (strengthen), your bones. You will be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters do not fail. And those of you will rebuild the old waste places; you will raise up the foundations of many generations; and you will be called the Repairer of the Breach, the Restorer of Streets to Dwell In; If you turn away your foot from breaking the Sabbath: from doing your pleasure; your own business, your own pleasure, on My holy day, and call the Sabbath a delight; the holy day of YHWH honorable, and will honor Him by not doing your own ways, nor finding your own pleasure, nor engaging in idle conversation: Then you will find your joy in YHWH; and I will cause you to ride on the high places of the earth, and feed you with the heritage of Yaaqob your father, for the mouth of YHWH has spoken it."

 

[PHart]

The scriptures are clear...the spirit born of incorruptable seed does not sin and is currently housed in a fallen dead body of sin that is not subject unto the law of God and neither indeed can be....

This is the reemergence of Gnosticism in the church. It's gaining popularity under another name.

It's really just a rationalization for continuing in the bondage of sin. But there is no reason to rationalize sin this way in the genuine believer since the blood of Christ cleanses us of wrong doing when we seek that cleansing. My observation has been that this doctrine is attractive to people not looking for Christ's cleansing but who want an excuse to continue in their old ways and still be saved. And it's not necessarily that they love sin and want to live in it for that reason. Some are just the helpless victims of a church that does not believe that believers can be victorious over sin and has taught them to accept that (supposed) fact.

The scriptures are clear...the spirit born of incorruptable seed does not sin...

Here's what Paul says about the spirit of a man not sinning as dcon's doctrine claims:

"1Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1 NASB)

So we can see that what the scriptures are clear about is that the spirit of a man can be defiled and must be cleansed. Sin does not reside solely in the flesh as Gnosticism teaches.

 

[Amberlight]

If we have to keep the Law, then the Christ keeping it for us was useless.

Of course we are to keep the law.

Not the law of moses for it is gone.

But the law of love given to us by God's only son.

We are to love our lord God creator of all and love our neighbor and share our burdens.

In this we fulfill law of God although it is now longer "law" but result of our spiritual connection to God and our choice to be in Christ.

The old testaments laws were in another hand that.. a law of laws. They were a juridical system . God gave it to Jews so they knew how to please lord before holy spirit was given through Jesus to us all who believe.

If old testament law fits with law of love from God of course we agree on it (We would not make idols as Christians as it is against what holy spirit says)

People need to understand the old law had their purpose but in Christ we are free from them.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Luke 1:6
Now let all the bible experts say it aint saying what it says. "no one can keep the law" -> bible says they kept the law blamelessly. Which one is right?

Paul said the same word, 'blameless', in regards to the Law. Yet he persecuted the church, and was an accomplance to muder. Thou shalt not kill. Uh, oops?

 

[PHart]

OK, so 2 questions arise if you don't mind.

1. What if someone seeks to keep the Instructions/Commandments (whatever onw wants to call them) because it is the right thing to do and the right way to live before Yah?

It has been my observation that the church is incapable of understanding any effort to keep the law outside of it being one trying to earn their salvation. Even when you explain it to them they still can't see any valid reason to keep the law.

I blame the leadership of the church for suppressing the truth about the law through their wickedness. Not every single leader, so relax, folks, lol. Most leaders in the church are themselves the hapless victims of the evil men who outlawed the law and made 'work' and 'law' the four letter words of the church that should never be uttered.

Which is ironic because the church understands very well the keeping of their own laws for the purpose of doing what's right and what God wants. The duplicity of the church is amazing sometimes.

 

[preacher4truth]

Luke 1:6
Now let all the bible experts say it aint saying what it says. "no one can keep the law" ->

Yep, none can keep the law.

bible says they kept the law blamelessly.

You know what the Bible says, just not what it actually means. Hence your many, many errors. Not to mention your incessant anger toward the Calvinist brothers and the one true Gospel.

You're also one who believes "the rich young ruler," Matthew 19:20, kept the law, right?

Which one is right?

You're begging the question and it is already answered. It's highly doubtful you'll stand corrected by the Word.

 

[Hizikyah]

It has been my observation that the church is incapable of understanding any effort to keep the law outside of it being one trying to earn their salvation. Even when you explain it to them they still can't see any other reason to keep the law.

I blame the leadership of the church for suppressing the truth about the law through their wickedness. Not every single leader, so relax, folks, lol. Most leaders in the church are themselves the hapless victims of the evil men who outlawed the law and made 'work' and 'law' the four letter words of the church that should never be uttered.

Which is ironic because the church understands very well the keeping of their own laws for the purpose of doing what's right and what God wants. The duplicity of the church is amazing sometimes.

Yeah I have also seen this, I believe it is because the emnity has not been abolished in their heart,

Jeremiah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law (Torah/Instructions) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."


Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them.”


Ephesians 2:15-16, "Abolishing the enmity Law, the Commandments, and the Ordinances, through His own flesh, in order to create in Himself one new man from the two; making peace, That would reconcile both in one body to YHWH through the sacrifice--having killed the enmity through Himself."

Strong's Concordance, “enmity” is word #G2189 echthra: enmity, hostility, Original Word: ἔχθρα, ας, ἡ, Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine, Transliteration: echthra, Phonetic Spelling: (ekh'-thrah), Short Definition: enmity, hostility, Definition: enmity, hostility, alienation.

Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon) Feminine of G2190; hostility; by implication a reason for opposition:—enmity, hatred.

"having killed the enmity"
The opposition to YHWH's Law abolished, not the Law it's self.

and making of ones own laws is the exact same thing the pharisees did, yet anyonw who seks to keep Yah's Law is accused of being a "pharisee" When the blind lead the blind...

Mattithyah 15:2-3, "Why do Your disciples transgress the traditions of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat. But He answered, and said to them: And why do you transgress the Laws of YHWH by your traditions?"

Mark 7:5-9, "Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him; Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands? He answered, and said to them: Well has Isayah prophesied of you hypocrites--as it is written: This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. But in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrine the commandments of men. For laying aside the Law of YHWH, you hold the tradition of men! Then He said to them: How well you reject the Law of YHWH, so that you may keep your own tradition!"

Mark 7:13, "Making the Laws of YHWH of no effect through your tradition you have handed down! And many other similar things you do."

 

[Studyman]

Paul said the same word, 'blameless', in regards to the Law. Yet he persecuted the church, and was an accomplance to muder. Thou shalt not kill. Uh, oops?

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Jesus said the Pharisees were teaching for doctrines the Commandments of men, not of God. Paul was blameless as far as the Pharisees were concerned. Jesus didn't reject the Mainstream Church of His time (Pharisees) because they were following the Old Testament Commandments. He rejected them because they were transgressing them by their own man made doctrines and traditions. This caused them to become deceived and held captive to their wicked flesh and death. This is the burden and "Yoke" the Father's couldn't bear. This is them being entangled in bondage. The idea that if we are obedient to God's Commandments we have somehow fallen from the Grace of God is universal no doubt, but false just the same.

 

[Studyman]

Of course we are to keep the law.

Not the law of moses for it is gone.

But the law of love given to us by God's only son.

We are to love our lord God creator of all and love our neighbor and share our burdens.

In this we fulfill law of God although it is now longer "law" but result of our spiritual connection to God and our choice to be in Christ.

The old testaments laws were in another hand that.. a law of laws. They were a juridical system . God gave it to Jews so they knew how to please lord before holy spirit was given through Jesus to us all who believe.

If old testament law fits with law of love from God of course we agree on it (We would not make idols as Christians as it is against what holy spirit says)

People need to understand the old law had their purpose but in Christ we are free from them.

Christ freed us from death and deception, He didn't free us from God's Righteousness.

 

[SovereignGrace]

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Jesus said the Pharisees were teaching for doctrines the Commandments of men, not of God. Paul was blameless as far as the Pharisees were concerned. Jesus didn't reject the Mainstream Church of His time (Pharisees) because they were following the Old Testament Commandments. He rejected them because they were transgressing them by their own man made doctrines and traditions. This caused them to become deceived and held captive to their wicked flesh and death. This is the burden and "Yoke" the Father's couldn't bear. This is them being entangled in bondage. The idea that if we are obedient to God's Commandments we have somehow fallen from the Grace of God is universal no doubt, but false just the same.

I was just showing that 'blameless' doesn't mean 'perfection' as in keeping the Law w/o breaking it. Paul was guilty of murder at worst, an accomplance at best. He wasn't blameless as in keeping it w/o ever breaking it even once.

 

[Amberlight]

Christ freed us from death and deception, He didn't free us from God's Righteousness.

I cannot understand how a man or woman of God can be unrighteous .

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yep, none can keep the law.



You know what the Bible says, just not what it actually means. Hence your many, many errors. Not to mention your incessant anger toward the Calvinist brothers and the one true Gospel.

You're also one who believes "the rich young ruler," Matthew 19:20, kept the law, right?



You're begging the question and it is already answered. It's highly doubtful you'll stand corrected by the Word.

Paul was blameless, even after having a guy kilt.

 

[Studyman]

Yep, none can keep the law.



You know what the Bible says, just not what it actually means. Hence your many, many errors. Not to mention your incessant anger toward the Calvinist brothers and the one true Gospel.

You're also one who believes "the rich young ruler," Matthew 19:20, kept the law, right?



You're begging the question and it is already answered. It's highly doubtful you'll stand corrected by the Word.

Just a thought here. Didn't Jesus expose that the "rich young ruler" had deceived himself? He had broken the first and greatest commandment and placed his riches before God and wasn't even aware of it.

Isn't this what James was speaking to in:

James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

Isn't it this deception and death caused by transgression that Christ freed us from, and not God's Commandments as a lot of churches teach?

Just a thought.

 

[Studyman]

I cannot understand how a man or woman of God can be unrighteous .

It's called deception. Jesus warns of it through out the entire Bible.

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


You can't say these people didn't believe in Jesus, or that they didn't think they were righteous. But one thing was missing that cost them their salvation.

Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Keep in mind that there is only one group of believers on the planet that fit's this description, and that is "Christianity".

satan used God's Words to deceive Eve in the very beginning, and Jesus warns it still is. We have a simple test though, given us by God through His Word. How can we truly know if we have been deceived by the "many" who "come in His name". Remember, if we are truly deceived, we won't know it.

1 John. 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

This is the perfect test to see of it is God who has written His Laws on our hearts, or if it is a spirit "disguised as an Apostle of Christ, or "Minister of Righteousness" which we were warned about so many times.

5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

The perfect test. How did Jesus walk? What commandments did He Honor? We need look no further than Christ because.

Rom. 10: "4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

 

[preacher4truth]

Just a thought here. Didn't Jesus expose that the "rich young ruler" had deceived himself? He had broken the first and greatest commandment and placed his riches before God and wasn't even aware of it.

Isn't this what James was speaking to in:

James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

Isn't it this deception and death caused by transgression that Christ freed us from, and not God's Commandments as a lot of churches teach?

Just a thought.

I'm not sure a lot of churches teach we are not to obey God's commandments as you assert.

 

[PeterJens]

The strange thing about hypocrites is if they wake up, become honest and say,
"yes I am a hypocrite, doomed to stay in sin, but God forgives me and it is ok.
God never meant us to be righteous, only to have His righteousness"

This is religious language with no power of reality. Rather than taking seriously
what is love and how does in grow in our hearts, it is just a cop out, one sinful
failure means all is lost, so just accept we are lost and accepted than struggle on
in the delusion working for salvation is possible.

It literally junks Pauls, Peters, and Jesus's position of learning to walk like Him.
This is simply the sinners attitude to God who refuses to take love from the heart
seriously. And their only ammunition is abuse and ridicule, which is simply not
a believers response to the truth, but a sinners. And for me this is simply testimony
enough.

 

[Studyman]

I was just showing that 'blameless' doesn't mean 'perfection' as in keeping the Law w/o breaking it. Paul was guilty of murder at worst, an accomplance at best. He wasn't blameless as in keeping it w/o ever breaking it even once.

I appreciate the reply. My point was that the Pharisees, including Paul, were not trying to get to heaven by Keeping God's Commandments. They were following and promoting a tradition soaked doctrine they claimed was the Law of Moses, but Jesus clearly exposed that it was not.

Had they truly "submitted themselves to the Righteousness of God" and not their own righteousness, God would have had mercy on them as He did with Zechariah and Elizabeth.


Great thread, good discussion. Thanks for the reply

 

[SovereignGrace]

Lord, I am trying my hardest to remain saved. But its getting really hard.

Love,

Self Starter