Not By Works

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UnderGrace

Guest
Wow..... Amen!!



That is such a cop-out. If works play any part in our salvation, then by what you've said, God judges people differently by scale. As if God is in heaven saying "Well, just 6 more good works will characterize Ralph as a true believer!"

And as far as "helping the church" - is that the measure? Must our good works help the church exclusively?

You just keep adding on conditions, don't you?



Ralph, when it says "God will not forget your work" the author is talking about the rewards we will receive for doing them. The author is encouraging believers not to be lazy. The very fact in verse 12 (which you failed to post) about not becoming lazy is proof one CAN become lazy and not do works. And also, nowhere does it say if one becomes lazy, they'll lose their salvation or it's proof they never had it.



Are you ever impure? Envious? Jealous? Have outbursts of anger? Dispute with anyone?

People like you love to throw sins in people's faces, when you are just as guilty of sinning.

And btw, just what sins are attributed to the believer? How many haven't been forgiven? Are future sins under the blood?

Your whole argument breaks down on the fact that believers have no sins to answer for. NONE. They are GONE FOREVER.




Do you love God with all your heart, soul, and strength?

If you add even ONE THING to the gospel, you negate it as a gift. You just can't get that simple fact through your head. When you add a condition, you've thrown the whole thing out the window. It's that mentality that keeps so many people in bondage - fearful that they haven't done enough to "prove" themselves, or secretly terrified that they're not truly saved.

It is sickening and an abuse of the gospel.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
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Yes, those who are BELIEVING in the Lord. And we know if we are truly believing by if we are in process of birthing the Son in our bodies.

Process of "birthing the Son"?

What the....?

Is that one more condition you're adding? Is salvation a "process" to you?

Are you a Roman Catholic? (I asked this before, and you never answered it).
 
Dec 12, 2013
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1 John 5. I write these things so you may KNOW YOU HAVE eternal life. And By this knowledge, continue to believe in his name.

rom 10. WHoever calls on the name of the lord will be saved (I did that almost 40 years ago)

John 3. Whoever believes in him has eternal life. And is not condemned. (I have faiht in Christ)

John 6.. Never hunger, never thirst,. Never die, Live forever. Etc etc.

eph 1. Given an inheritance which is unbreakable. Sealed but the HS

How many more proofs do I need?
If we were a worker for.......one more would be the answer.....
 
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Ok so most of the people on this thread are saved then. Nice of you to acknowledge that. :)


1 John 5. I write these things so you may KNOW YOU HAVE eternal life. And By this knowledge, continue to believe in his name.

rom 10. WHoever calls on the name of the lord will be saved (I did that almost 40 years ago)

John 3. Whoever believes in him has eternal life. And is not condemned. (I have faiht in Christ)

John 6.. Never hunger, never thirst,. Never die, Live forever. Etc etc.

eph 1. Given an inheritance which is unbreakable. Sealed but the HS

How many more proofs do I need?
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Process of "birthing the Son"?

What the....?

Is that one more condition you're adding? Is salvation a "process" to you?

Are you a Roman Catholic? (I asked this before, and you never answered it).
I know you believe this guy....

Not saved until the end when the Lord sees your works yet you are already placed into the vine......and now this doctrine of birthing the son in you......vacillates more in belief than a metronome.......with about 57 flavors of doctrine.....like the Baskin Robbins of supposed Christian beliefs......
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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Faith that is alone, having no works, is a person saying they have faith but has nothing to show for their faith. James himself defined 'faith alone' for us.


"What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works?"-James 2:14

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."-James 2:24



I'm posting this to show you he defines 'faith alone' as lip service. I'm not asking you to debate the other issues associated with that. The above verses prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that 'faith alone' is mere lip service.



I know you hear it that way. I'm completely aware of that.

It's all about faith. There is no fruit bearing outside of faith in Christ. That's why fruit bearing is the sign you are in Christ in salvation by faith. Fruitless branches are cut off and thrown into the fire. If fruitless branches somehow belonged to Christ they would be retained by Christ, not cast off.

In the end, fruitlessness shows you do not have faith in Christ. If you are a barren field when Jesus comes back you will be burned, not saved...

"land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned."-Hebrews 6:8

On the other hand, if you have fruitful work, you have that which accompanies salvation. You show by your work that you are saved and ready to meet Jesus when he returns. This is taught to us in the example of the Hebrew church...

"we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation. 10God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them."-Hebrews 6:9-10


If any of you are barren and fruitless, fall on Jesus. He will make you ready for his return. That's why he came here first to warn us. He will give you salvation and the things that accompany salvation that make it certain that you are indeed saved and ready to meet him.

"We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, so that what you hope for may be fully realized. 12We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised."-Hebrews 6:11-12
You should do a search to see what the scriptures actually do say about fruit before the Cross and ressurrection, and then after.

Makes a difference if you know which covenant you are in, and also which scriptures address problems with Jewish believers, and which with Gentiles.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
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I know you believe this guy....

Not saved until the end when the Lord sees your works yet you are already placed into the vine......and now this doctrine of birthing the son in you......vacillates more in belief than a metronome.......with about 57 flavors of doctrine.....like the Baskin Robbins of supposed Christian beliefs......
Yep. It just keeps getting weirder and weirder. :(
 
Dec 12, 2013
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No, because you think you are saved and others are not.
No, because the bible teaches one biblical way of salvation not 2, 3 or 50.......and if one embellishes the biblical doctrine of salvation and makes it into a gospel of a different kind we can rightfully conclude that their dogma is not nor does it lead to salvation...wake up.....I judge no man's salvation, but their dogma on the other hand is easily judged by the word....
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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Look in the mirror. Do you see Jesus?

Sarah knew she possessed the promise of a son that would inherit the Land on her behalf by how that promised child was growing each day inside of her and pressing out from her inward parts. And so it is for the Christian. We know that we have the promises made to Abraham when we see Jesus, the promised Son, growing in us every day. People who can't see Jesus growing in them don't have the promises applied to them.

"My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you"-Galatians 4:19
Paul was "laboring" in prayer for those in his charge. You want to look at the manchild in Revelations.

As far as looking into the mirror? This is in reference to the laver of washing. There was a mirror in the bottom. If you are washed by the water of the Word, then who should you see? Hint..in Christ. Then scripture speaks of failure if you leave and forget who you see.

Dead to sin, dead in Christ....alive unto God, alive in Spirit.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Ok so most of the people on this thread are saved then. Nice of you to acknowledge that. :)

How can I acknowledge this when.

1. They do not believe as John said that a child of God can not sin because they have been born of God, and that whoever sins has never seen God or known him (1 John 5)

2. They believe in conditional life, Not eternal life (john 3)

3. They may have prayed, but they did not call out for God to save them, They asked God to start the process and then they will finish the process by their good deeds, acts of righteousness, Holiness or whatever they say a person must do to maintain salvation (rom 10)

4. They do nto believe they will live forever, never die, will never hunger or thirst, They have eternal life etc etc,. They think this all is conditional, even after they are saved (john 6)

5. Even if they think they have recieved this inheritance, they think it is conditional Even the seal of the spirit is NOT until the day of redemption. But only applicable as long as we meet the requirements.

So no. I do not think this at all. Because it is NOT TRUE!
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
No, because you think you are saved and others are not.
It is not what we think, it is what the Bible says. I can not judge what someone did in the past. Or if they have every truely strutted in christ or not. But I can judge their gospel
 
Dec 22, 2017
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Amen and same here....as long as you have people using James out of context, posting that we are not saved until the end when Jesus sees our works, embellishing faith with works to gain, keep, maintain salvation I will post every day.....and on top of that...will do so anyway for all new people to this site....faith plus works for or to keep is false and it is a dogma that does not lead to the kingdom, but rather the plenteous in number that boast of such things as their ticket into the kingdom....we know their destiny.......and the kingdom is not it......
1 Corinthians 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power.

1 John 1:6-7 If we CLAIM to have fellowship with him yet WALK in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we WALK in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

21st Century King James Version Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS, which God hath beforehand ordained, that we should WALK in them.

2 John 1:6 And this is love: that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Luke 6:46 “And why call ye Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not the things which I say?
 
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How do you know that about people, based on what they say? Or do you just take anything you happen to disagree with, exaggerate it and confidently assume that they are not saved compared to yourself? This is what it is about, you, you, you.

You, you, you.

How can I acknowledge this when.

1. They do not believe as John said that a child of God can not sin because they have been born of God, and that whoever sins has never seen God or known him (1 John 5)

2. They believe in conditional life, Not eternal life (john 3)

3. They may have prayed, but they did not call out for God to save them, They asked God to start the process and then they will finish the process by their good deeds, acts of righteousness, Holiness or whatever they say a person must do to maintain salvation (rom 10)

4. They do nto believe they will live forever, never die, will never hunger or thirst, They have eternal life etc etc,. They think this all is conditional, even after they are saved (john 6)

5. Even if they think they have recieved this inheritance, they think it is conditional Even the seal of the spirit is NOT until the day of redemption. But only applicable as long as we meet the requirements.

So no. I do not think this at all. Because it is NOT TRUE!
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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The difference to look for is brokenness. Is the 'sinner' broken and contrite about his failure? That's what you look for to decide who you associate with who calls themselves a brother but who is 'immoral...or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler"-1 Corinthians 5:11.

After Paul instructed the church at Corinth to expel the immoral man from among them (seeing if they would stand the test of being obedient in this matter) he told them to receive the man in comfort and forgiveness so that he would not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. Apparently, he responded positively to their rebuke as evidenced by his sorrow. That's what you would expect from a sincere brother or sister. That's how you know who's for real and who's not. Are they sorry, or are they arrogant?

So I don't believe we are to expel people who are broken and sorrowful over the things they struggle with. It's the arrogant, unrepentant person who should be turned out and kept from coming back. It used to be they wouldn't come back anyway. Which is a good thing. But the trend today seems to be to make it so they don't leave. It's ruining the church.
Why was the immoral man expelled?

Matthew 18:19-20


19 “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

18:19, 20 This passage specifically refers to church discipline. It is a promise for guidance for the two or three who confront, and a promise for the church to claim wisdom and restoration for the erring brother.

anything you ask: In the context of church discipline (18:15-17), this suggests that discipline must be done in prayer.

So if the church has followed the prescription of Jesus and he has not repented then yes disassociate with them.
Yet we do find a promise.
What is it Ralph?

The trend today is not to make it so easy that they don't leave, the trend is "Lets make it so hard for them to come back"

You say

It's the arrogant, unrepentant person who should be turned out and kept from coming back. It used to be they wouldn't come back anyway. Which is a good thing.

That is such a shocking thing to say.

The immoral man was disciplined for what reason?

Arrogance, and unrepentant attitude.

Yet you say by your words "It's a good think we kick them out and stop them from coming back"

The immoral man came back.
Yet your thoughts convey. "Close the front door to him"

This man was put outside the church and was restored.
Yet you want to stop him coming back.

Where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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The definition of sin is transgression of the law. Jesus said the law is in force until heaven and earth pass away. There are 613 different rules in the Torah that compromise the law. No one can keep all 613 of them.
Its only in force at the GWT judgement. Not at the Bema.

and not for His body.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Case in point, Rosemary. That's not even the argument. And no matter how many times you explain the actual argument to them they respond as if you said nothing. It's the proverbial 'no ears to hear and no eyes to see' right here in this thread.

You are talking about yourself. We have explained numerous times to you, "you have responded as if you said nothing."