Not By Works

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Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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James 2 speaks definitively about the issue of the relationship between faith and works. The concept is as follows keeping in mind James 2:26.

We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus.
Faith produces works.
Faith without works is dead.
Works doesn't save but the lack of works condemns.

James 2 NIV

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

James 2 AMPC

14 What is the use (profit), my brethren, for anyone to profess to have faith if he has no [good] works [to show for it]? Can [such] faith save [his soul]?
15 If a brother or sister is poorly clad and lacks food for each day,
16 And one of you says to him, Good-bye! Keep [yourself] warm and well fed, without giving him the necessities for the body, what good does that do?
17 So also faith, if it does not have works (deeds and actions of obedience to back it up), by itself is destitute of power (inoperative, dead).
18 But someone will say [to you then], You [say you] have faith, and I have [good] works. Now you show me your [alleged] faith apart from any [good] works [if you can], and I by [good] works [of obedience] will show you my faith.
19 You believe that God is one; you do well. So do the demons believe and shudder [in terror and horror such as make a man’s hair stand on end and contract the surface of his skin]!
20 Are you willing to be shown [proof], you foolish (unproductive, spiritually deficient) fellow, that faith apart from [good] works is inactive and ineffective and worthless?
21 Was not our forefather Abraham [shown to be] justified (made acceptable to God) by [his] works when he brought to the altar as an offering his [own] son Isaac?
22 You see that [his] faith was cooperating with his works, and [his] faith was completed and reached its supreme expression [when he implemented it] by [good] works.
23 And [so] the Scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed in (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on) God, and this was accounted to him as righteousness (as conformity to God’s will in thought and deed), and he was called God’s friend.
24 You see that a man is justified (pronounced righteous before God) through what he does and not alone through faith [through works of obedience as well as by what he believes].
25 So also with Rahab the harlot—was she not shown to be justified (pronounced righteous before God) by [good] deeds when she took in the scouts (spies) and sent them away by a different route?
26 For as the human body apart from the spirit is lifeless, so faith apart from [its] works of obedience is also dead.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
21,999
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Are you using a secular dictionary to define a biblical word?

Is that an honest attempt at discovering the truth?

Why not use the bible itself and the context, or at least use a bible study concordance or lexicon.
The word translated "believe" is from the greek word "pisteuō" (Strong's Concordance #4100) which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ).

Strong's Concordance
pisteuó: to believe, entrust
Original Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Short Definition: I believe, have faith in
Definition: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.

HELPS Word-studies
4100 pisteúō (from 4102 /pístis, "faith," derived from 3982 /peíthō, "persuade, be persuaded") – believe (affirm, have confidence); used of persuading oneself (= human believing) and with the sacred significance of being persuaded by the Lord (= faith-believing). Only the context indicates whether 4100 /pisteúō ("believe") is self-serving (without sacred meaning), or the believing that leads to/proceeds from God's inbirthing of faith.

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from pistis
Definition
to believe, entrust
NASB Translation

*Nothing in the root meaning carries any concept of works. Believing is not obedience/works, as you teach.

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:16

The biblical word believe carries the idea of trust, and commit as well as obey.
To believe is to have faith in, trust in, entrust one's spiritual well being to Christ. Obedience which follows is WORKS. In the case of Romans 10:16, we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen as the Savior of those who believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation.

Unbelief and disobedience are used interchangeable and are the same Greek word.
The Greek word for disobedience/unbelief in Hebrews 4:6 is not pisteuo, but "apeitheia."

Example:

Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
Hebrews 4:6 NKJV

Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:6 KJV
Strong's Concordance #543 apeitheia:
Original Word: ἀπείθεια, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apeitheia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-i'-thi-ah)
Short Definition: willful unbelief, obstinacy, disobedience
Definition: willful unbelief, obstinacy, disobedience.

HELPS Word-studies
543 apeítheia(from 1 /A "not" and 3982 /peíthō, "persuaded") – properly, someone not persuaded, referring to their willful unbelief, i.e. the refusalto be convinced by God's voice. This is the core-meaning of the entire word-family: 543 (apeítheia), 544 (apeithéō), 545 (apeithḗs). All these cognates focus on man's decision to reject God's offers of faith, i.e. refusal to be persuaded in their heart concerning obeying His will (Word).

*Disobedience is a manifestation of willful unbelief, which still does not mean that belief is "defined" as obedience/works.

Those who do not obey the Gospel will suffer His vengeance on that Day.

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:8

on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Those who do not obey the gospel have done so by refusing to believe the gospel. Those who have obeyed the gospel have done so by choosing to believe the gospel by trusting in Christ's finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation (Romans 1:16).
 
Dec 12, 2013
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James 2 speaks definitively about the issue of the relationship between faith and works. The concept is as follows keeping in mind James 2:26.

We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus.
Faith produces works.
Faith without works is dead.
Works doesn't save but the lack of works condemns.

James 2 NIV

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

James 2 AMPC

14 What is the use (profit), my brethren, for anyone to profess to have faith if he has no [good] works [to show for it]? Can [such] faith save [his soul]?
15 If a brother or sister is poorly clad and lacks food for each day,
16 And one of you says to him, Good-bye! Keep [yourself] warm and well fed, without giving him the necessities for the body, what good does that do?
17 So also faith, if it does not have works (deeds and actions of obedience to back it up), by itself is destitute of power (inoperative, dead).
18 But someone will say [to you then], You [say you] have faith, and I have [good] works. Now you show me your [alleged] faith apart from any [good] works [if you can], and I by [good] works [of obedience] will show you my faith.
19 You believe that God is one; you do well. So do the demons believe and shudder [in terror and horror such as make a man’s hair stand on end and contract the surface of his skin]!
20 Are you willing to be shown [proof], you foolish (unproductive, spiritually deficient) fellow, that faith apart from [good] works is inactive and ineffective and worthless?
21 Was not our forefather Abraham [shown to be] justified (made acceptable to God) by [his] works when he brought to the altar as an offering his [own] son Isaac?
22 You see that [his] faith was cooperating with his works, and [his] faith was completed and reached its supreme expression [when he implemented it] by [good] works.
23 And [so] the Scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed in (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on) God, and this was accounted to him as righteousness (as conformity to God’s will in thought and deed), and he was called God’s friend.
24 You see that a man is justified (pronounced righteous before God) through what he does and not alone through faith [through works of obedience as well as by what he believes].
25 So also with Rahab the harlot—was she not shown to be justified (pronounced righteous before God) by [good] deeds when she took in the scouts (spies) and sent them away by a different route?
26 For as the human body apart from the spirit is lifeless, so faith apart from [its] works of obedience is also dead.
And where you miss the mark by your psudo Catholic/Presbyterian doctrine is found in the line after the word dead....
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
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Must we produce fruit all the time? Are we capable of doing such?
Not necessarily. As the day goes by, you may have opportunities to witness and assist the needy. There will be many days that those opportunities do not avail themselves to you. So take the opportunity when it arises and be a happy productive Christian.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
And where you miss the mark by your psudo Catholic/Presbyterian doctrine is found in the line after the word dead....
If works follow the baptism of the spirit, and you find that you perform no works, then you did not receive a true baptism of the spirit. Good works is the sign that you are a true believer. Fake believers who did not have the baptism of the spirit will not be engaged in the works of the Lord with any real intent.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Must we produce fruit all the time? Are we capable of doing such?
Brave question.
Any gardener knows fruit is not automatic even on branch that is alive and well.

James has been so mangled to appease those who say that a person can loose their salvation, by saying they never had faith to begin with, yet this is not the "dead faith" James was writing about.

Only something once alive can be dead and to deny this is to deny objective reality.
Luke 6 43-45 tells us fruit is also doctrine.

Fruit are converts for the kingdom.
Fruit is not produced by every Christian (1 Cor 3:11-15)
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
1,675
240
63
If works follow the baptism of the spirit, and you find that you perform no works, then you did not receive a true baptism of the spirit. Good works is the sign that you are a true believer. Fake believers who did not have the baptism of the spirit will not be engaged in the works of the Lord with any real intent.

b...,
Good points here.

We must acknowledge differences in capabilities of humans. Therefore, individual works as a Christian will differ and at different levels and magnitudes. All of which, collectively, works towards good for witnessing and all acceptable to G-d.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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If works follow the baptism of the spirit, and you find that you perform no works, then you did not receive a true baptism of the spirit. Good works is the sign that you are a true believer. Fake believers who did not have the baptism of the spirit will not be engaged in the works of the Lord with any real intent.
More proof you lack understanding of true believers, the types of works and fruit they will ALL POSSESS and the fact that saved people can and do wander, produce bad works and fruit on occasion and still remain eternally secure....more working for I keep myself saved drivel.....!!
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Must we produce fruit all the time? Are we capable of doing such?
Creation, which speaks daily, addresses this truth....it also proves that even good trees that produce good fruit occasionally throws a worm infested or rotten apple to the ground, may or may not produce, is dependent upon the correct moisture, fertilizer and temps (biblical growth AFTER SALVATION) to produce and remains an apple tree after sprouting (birth) throughout it's whole life regardless of production!

The deceitful workers for fail to acknowledge that a true eternally saved believer has already done the work of the Heavenly Father in their act of faith/belief into the FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST!
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Creation, which speaks daily, addresses this truth....it also proves that even good trees that produce good fruit occasionally throws a worm infested or rotten apple to the ground, may or may not produce, is dependent upon the correct moisture, fertilizer and temps (biblical growth AFTER SALVATION) to produce and remains an apple tree after sprouting (birth) throughout it's whole life regardless of production!

The deceitful workers for fail to acknowledge that a true eternally saved believer has already done the work of the Heavenly Father in their act of faith/belief into the FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST!

Amen and Amen!!!


So so appreciate your stand on this Truth!!

Thank you :)
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
5,470
113
Anaheim, Cali.
Creation, which speaks daily, addresses this truth....it also proves that even good trees that produce good fruit occasionally throws a worm infested or rotten apple to the ground, may or may not produce, is dependent upon the correct moisture, fertilizer and temps (biblical growth AFTER SALVATION) to produce and remains an apple tree after sprouting (birth) throughout it's whole life regardless of production!

It's a little off the subject but bear with me plz. there's a point at the end. A Sequoia pine only reproduces durin forest fires. The heat causes the pinecone to oped, & release seeds that the hot wind blows away. The fire also clears away the dense undergrowth so the seeds have fresh, fertile earth to root in. Out of disaster comes re birth and new fertile growth. Even if the lord allows us to fall like the rotten apple, that dosn't mean something good won't come of it. The apple can decay but its seeds can pass forward to the next generation and only God knows how many good apples will come of it!
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
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The word translated "believe" is from the greek word "pisteuō" (Strong's Concordance #4100) which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ).

Strong's Concordance
pisteuó: to believe, entrust
Original Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Short Definition: I believe, have faith in
Definition: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.

HELPS Word-studies
4100 pisteúō (from 4102 /pístis, "faith," derived from 3982 /peíthō, "persuade, be persuaded") – believe (affirm, have confidence); used of persuading oneself (= human believing) and with the sacred significance of being persuaded by the Lord (= faith-believing). Only the context indicates whether 4100 /pisteúō ("believe") is self-serving (without sacred meaning), or the believing that leads to/proceeds from God's inbirthing of faith.

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from pistis
Definition
to believe, entrust
NASB Translation

*Nothing in the root meaning carries any concept of works. Believing is not obedience/works, as you teach.

To believe is to have faith in, trust in, entrust one's spiritual well being to Christ. Obedience which follows is WORKS. In the case of Romans 10:16, we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen as the Savior of those who believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation.

The Greek word for disobedience/unbelief in Hebrews 4:6 is not pisteuo, but "apeitheia."

Strong's Concordance #543 apeitheia:
Original Word: ἀπείθεια, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apeitheia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-i'-thi-ah)
Short Definition: willful unbelief, obstinacy, disobedience
Definition: willful unbelief, obstinacy, disobedience.

HELPS Word-studies
543 apeítheia(from 1 /A "not" and 3982 /peíthō, "persuaded") – properly, someone not persuaded, referring to their willful unbelief, i.e. the refusalto be convinced by God's voice. This is the core-meaning of the entire word-family: 543 (apeítheia), 544 (apeithéō), 545 (apeithḗs). All these cognates focus on man's decision to reject God's offers of faith, i.e. refusal to be persuaded in their heart concerning obeying His will (Word).

*Disobedience is a manifestation of willful unbelief, which still does not mean that belief is "defined" as obedience/works.

Those who do not obey the gospel have done so by refusing to believe the gospel. Those who have obeyed the gospel have done so by choosing to believe the gospel by trusting in Christ's finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation (Romans 1:16).
Why do you try so hard to get obedience and love, and works, and keeping the commandments outside the perimeter of being saved? You want to say I believe and the second I believe I am saved. Then and only when I am saved can I be obedient, and love and do good works, and keep the commandments.

But what that really means to me is: I am saved, and there is nothing that can separate me from God and Jesus. So if I do or do not obey or love or do good works or keep the commandments, these things being outside the saved process, therefore my saved position is not affected, and so I am still saved.

The only answer back to me is: if after you are saved you do not obey, and love, and do good works, and keep the commandments, you were never saved in the first place. And if that is true, then 80% of Christians have not been saved and will not receive EL.

Decon actually used 90%. How is Christianity doing. Not very well. Or your doctrine in not right?
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,274
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Like I say, if good works do not follow your baptism of the spirit, then you never had a baptism of the spirit and you are a make believer. Am I wrong or am I right?
Can you please define "Baptism of the Spirit?
Or explain it and it's manifestation (s)
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Why do you try so hard to get obedience and love, and works, and keeping the commandments outside the perimeter of being saved? You want to say I believe and the second I believe I am saved. Then and only when I am saved can I be obedient, and love and do good works, and keep the commandments.

But what that really means to me is: I am saved, and there is nothing that can separate me from God and Jesus. So if I do or do not obey or love or do good works or keep the commandments, these things being outside the saved process, therefore my saved position is not affected, and so I am still saved.

The only answer back to me is: if after you are saved you do not obey, and love, and do good works, and keep the commandments, you were never saved in the first place. And if that is true, then 80% of Christians have not been saved and will not receive EL.

Decon actually used 90%. How is Christianity doing. Not very well. Or your doctrine in not right?
Not very well.
The visible church is not the invisible church.
The invisible church, those truly born from above are in Christ and redeemed, who are you to judge them?
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,274
4,004
113
Why do you try so hard to get obedience and love, and works, and keeping the commandments outside the perimeter of being saved? You want to say I believe and the second I believe I am saved. Then and only when I am saved can I be obedient, and love and do good works, and keep the commandments.

But what that really means to me is: I am saved, and there is nothing that can separate me from God and Jesus. So if I do or do not obey or love or do good works or keep the commandments, these things being outside the saved process, therefore my saved position is not affected, and so I am still saved.

The only answer back to me is: if after you are saved you do not obey, and love, and do good works, and keep the commandments, you were never saved in the first place. And if that is true, then 80% of Christians have not been saved and will not receive EL.

Decon actually used 90%. How is Christianity doing. Not very well. Or your doctrine in not right?
Sorry but your first paragraph confuses me.

There are many people who love and do great works yet do not have faith.
Such works they do are the same as believers, and maybe more. But they are not saved because they do not have faith in Jesus.

The Bible clearly states

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

I think you misunderstand or misrepresent the person you were responding to.

He was saying that works do not save, it's faith that saves and as a result we will do good works.

The person who has no faith but does works akin to genuine belivers are not saved.
So what is the difference?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
Creation, which speaks daily, addresses this truth....it also proves that even good trees that produce good fruit occasionally throws a worm infested or rotten apple to the ground, may or may not produce, is dependent upon the correct moisture, fertilizer and temps (biblical growth AFTER SALVATION) to produce and remains an apple tree after sprouting (birth) throughout it's whole life regardless of production!

The deceitful workers for fail to acknowledge that a true eternally saved believer has already done the work of the Heavenly Father in their act of faith/belief into the FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST!
True eternally saved beievers have ALREADY done the work of the Heavenly Father in their act of believing. And so there is no good works to be done after you believe, because that is the work. Am I getting that right?
 
Dec 12, 2013
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True eternally saved beievers have ALREADY done the work of the Heavenly Father in their act of believing. And so there is no good works to be done after you believe, because that is the work. Am I getting that right?
Not what I said or even implied....man you have serious comprehensive skills.....!