Not By Works

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J

J70x7

Guest
2 Timothy 3:17
That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.
 
J

J70x7

Guest
1 Corinthians 14:20
Brethren, do not become children in sense: but in malice be children, and in sense be perfect.
 
J

J70x7

Guest
2 Corinthians 13:11
For the rest, brethren, rejoice, be perfect, take exhortation, be of one mind, have peace; and the God of peace and of love shall be with you.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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For those who push salvation based on the merits of their obedience, I wonder just how much obedience they believe it takes to be saved? How much obedience do they believe they must accomplish and "add" as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to "help" Jesus save them? :unsure:

Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24-28) (y)
Hi mailmandan, your question: "Just how much obedience does it take." Answer: No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24-28) (y). Quote: "A supplemented Christ is a Supplanted Christ", by John MacArthur

To every worker out there pushing a merit based salvation and as mailmandan has already said, including this entire thread, that we are "Saved by grace, not by works."Eph2:9

Romans3:27,28
27)
Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28) For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,263
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God created man according to their own image of righteousness and holiness before Eve's deception that led to man's separation from God.

If Adam and Eve who were created HOLY and righteous have been DECEIVED by the deceiver, what exempts you from being DECEIVED and suffer from the wrath of God?

#75,880

Thr truth is that the deceiver has been deceiving from the beginning until now.

How would we know who were the ones that were deceived?

We know that Eve was deceived when she believed the deceiver and disobeyed God's command.

Who are the deceivers and who were deceived?

...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Matthew 24:10‭-‬14‭, ‬24

...For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
2 Corinthians 11:13‭-‬15

...And those that were deceived believed in the deceivers mentioned above and disobeyed God's commands because they were made to believe that they would not surely die, IOW, "always saved". But scriptures warn us not to be deceived;

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.
Ephesians 5:6‭-‬7

...Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ” “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”...genesis 3:1-19

Does a person who teaches obedience to God causes another person to sin by doing so?


Would any person who don't have FAITH in God teach obedience to God? Or would the deceiver be TEACHING obedience to God as a deception? Would he not rather teach DISOBEDIENCE in His attempt to deceive the believers?


Is it not those who condemn those who teach obedience to God who DOES NOT HAVE FAITH in God and CAUSES A PERSON TO SIN?


Is it not that sin is the transgression of the law?(1 john 3:4)

Is it obedience to God to break the law?


Who then causes another person to sin?


...At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

2 He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3 And he said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5 “And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6 But IF ANYONE CAUSES ONE OF THESE LITTLE ONES WHO “BELIEVE” IN ME TO SIN, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

7 “Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but WOE TO THE MAN THROUGH WHOM THEY COME FROM! 8 If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be THROWN INTO ETERNAL FIRE. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be THROWN INTO THE FIRE OF HELL. matthew 18:1-9


...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things GOD'S WRATH COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT. ephesians 5:6

You go on, and on, and on, AND SAY NOTHING ABOUT WHAT YOU PERSONALLY BELIEVE. Let's Make this SIMPLE.

A simple YES or NO will be Sufficient.


DO YOU BELIEVE SALVATION IS COMPLETE THE MOMENT YOU FIRST BELIEVED, A GIFT FROM GOD ? ? ?

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT GOD POURED HIS LOVE INTO YOU YOUR HEART AS A SEED IN THE GOOD SOIL AT SALVATION ? ? ?

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT GOD'S LOVE IN YOUR HEART WILL PRODUCE THE SAME KIND OF LOVE FOR HIM AND THE BRETHREN?

DO YOU BELIEVE AFTER SALVATION, YOU WILL MANIFEST THAT LOVE AS THE LIFE LONG SANCTIFICATION PROCESS THAT CONTINUES?


If you answers NO to any one of those questions, you in our opinion, have believed in a FALSE GOSPEL that cannot Save.

Like I said, Obedience is NOT part of SALVATION, and NEVER HAS BEEN.

Obedience is Part of GOD's LOVE that was POURED into our HEARTS.


Ephesians 2:4-5 (HCSB)
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us,
5 made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace!

Ephesians 2:8-9 (HCSB)
8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift
9 not from works, so that no one can boast.

Romans 11:6 (HCSB)
6 Now if by grace, then it is not by works; otherwise grace ceases to be grace.


Titus 3:5-7 (NIV)
5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.


ANY ADDED WORKS, CREATES A FALSE GOSPEL.
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
161
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Malachi, and the 7 assertions made by God against both the priests and people, has absolutely nothing to do with the salvation afforded men by faith as found under the New Covenant.....it is the first full book that I taught through in 1995 and represents the final straw before God goes silent under the law and to the Jewish people some 430 years or so before John the Immerser comes on the scene laying the ground work and preparing the material (saved immersed believers) for the coming of Jesus and the commencement of the New Covenant.....


It pleased GOD by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE <---this word is NOT OBEY...it is BELIEVE
Don't you know that preaching is a work of ministry which the body of Christ were prepared in advance to do. (1 Corinthians 12, Ephesians 2:10, 4:11-13)

...Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore GO and MAKE disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Matthew 28:18-20

...to save them that BELIEVE.

A belief that saves is one that obeys.

Believing without obeying is a DEAD FAITH and one that cannot SAVE. (James 2:14-26)

If FAITH comes from hearing the message (Romans 10:8-21), do we merely listen for us to be saved?

...My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, for man’s anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires. Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you. Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does. If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless. Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.James 1:19-27

...These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

...Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed. As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”

...Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, YOU WILL NEVER FALL, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:10-11

They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them. Ephesians 5:6-7
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,371
113
Don't you know that preaching is a work of ministry which the body of Christ were prepared in advance to do. (1 Corinthians 12, Ephesians 2:10, 4:11-13)

...Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore GO and MAKE disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Matthew 28:18-20

...to save them that BELIEVE.

A belief that saves is one that obeys.

Believing without obeying is a DEAD FAITH and one that cannot SAVE. (James 2:14-26)

If FAITH comes from hearing the message (Romans 10:8-21), do we merely listen for us to be saved?

...My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, for man’s anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires. Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you. Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does. If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless. Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.James 1:19-27

...These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

...Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed. As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”

...Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, YOU WILL NEVER FALL, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:10-11

They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them. Ephesians 5:6-7
Your working for gospel does not make the grade.....we are saved by faith and faith ALONE....anything beyond that equates to rewards or a lack thereof......

FAITH plus ANYTHING to obtain or maintain salvation = false and not of God......!!
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
161
43
You go on, and on, and on, AND SAY NOTHING ABOUT WHAT YOU PERSONALLY BELIEVE. Let's Make this SIMPLE.

A simple YES or NO will be Sufficient.


DO YOU BELIEVE SALVATION IS COMPLETE THE MOMENT YOU FIRST BELIEVED, A GIFT FROM GOD ? ? ?

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT GOD POURED HIS LOVE INTO YOU YOUR HEART AS A SEED IN THE GOOD SOIL AT SALVATION ? ? ?

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT GOD'S LOVE IN YOUR HEART WILL PRODUCE THE SAME KIND OF LOVE FOR HIM AND THE BRETHREN?

DO YOU BELIEVE AFTER SALVATION, YOU WILL MANIFEST THAT LOVE AS THE LIFE LONG SANCTIFICATION PROCESS THAT CONTINUES?


If you answers NO to any one of those questions, you in our opinion, have believed in a FALSE GOSPEL that cannot Save.

Like I said, Obedience is NOT part of SALVATION, and NEVER HAS BEEN.

Obedience is Part of GOD's LOVE that was POURED into our HEARTS.


Ephesians 2:4-5 (HCSB)
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us,
5 made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace!

Ephesians 2:8-9 (HCSB)
8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift
9 not from works, so that no one can boast.

Romans 11:6 (HCSB)
6 Now if by grace, then it is not by works; otherwise grace ceases to be grace.


Titus 3:5-7 (NIV)
5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.


ANY ADDED WORKS, CREATES A FALSE GOSPEL.
...Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man does not live on bread alone, but on EVERY WORD THAT COMES FROM THE MOUTH OF GOD.’”Matthew 4:4

Belief without obedience cannot SAVE.

"As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." James 2:26

Does a person who teaches obedience to God causes another person to sin by doing so?


Would any person who don't have FAITH in God teach obedience to God? Or would the deceiver be TEACHING obedience to God as a deception? Would he not rather teach DISOBEDIENCE in His attempt to deceive the believers?


Is it not those who condemn those who teach obedience to God who DOES NOT HAVE FAITH in God and CAUSES A PERSON TO SIN?


Is it not that sin is the transgression of the law?(1 john 3:4)

Is it obedience to God to break the law?


Who then causes another person to sin?


...At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

2 He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3 And he said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5 “And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6 But IF ANYONE CAUSES ONE OF THESE LITTLE ONES WHO “BELIEVE” IN ME TO SIN, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

7 “Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but WOE TO THE MAN THROUGH WHOM THEY COME FROM! 8 If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be THROWN INTO ETERNAL FIRE. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be THROWN INTO THE FIRE OF HELL. matthew 18:1-9


The Bible warns us about false Teachers and prophets.

... But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority. Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish. They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness. But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—a beast without speech—who spoke with a man’s voice and restrained the prophet’s madness. These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.” 2 Peter 2:1-22(see also the book of jude)


...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things GOD'S WRATH COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT. ephesians 5:6
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
161
43
Your working for gospel does not make the grade.....we are saved by faith and faith ALONE....anything beyond that equates to rewards or a lack thereof......

FAITH plus ANYTHING to obtain or maintain salvation = false and not of God......!!
#75,880

The truth is that the deceiver has been deceiving from the beginning until now.

How would we know who were the ones that were deceived?

We know that Eve was deceived when she believed the deceiver and disobeyed God's command.

Who are the deceivers and who were deceived?

...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Matthew 24:10‭-‬14‭, ‬24

...For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
2 Corinthians 11:13‭-‬15

...And those that were deceived believed in the deceivers mentioned above and disobeyed God's commands because they were made to believe that they would not surely die, IOW, "always saved". But scriptures warn us not to be deceived;

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.
Ephesians 5:6‭-‬7

...Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ” “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when
TruthTalkSenior Member

Oct 26, 2018

#75,170

Argueless said:

You said;
"Nowhere in the bible does it say that obedience is required for salvation."

God said:

“You have said harsh things against me,” says the Lord. “Yet you ask, ‘What have we said against you?’ “You have said, ‘It is futile to serve God. What did we gain by CARRYING OUT HIS REQUIREMENTS and going about like mourners before the Lord Almighty? But now we call the arrogant blessed. Certainly the evildoers prosper, and even those who challenge God escape.’” Then those who feared the Lord talked with each other, and the Lord listened and heard. A scroll of remembrance was written in his presence concerning those who feared the Lord and honored his name. “They will be mine,” says the Lord Almighty, “in the day when I make up my treasured possession. I WILL SPARE THEM, just as in compassion a man spares his son who serves him. And you will again see the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, between those who serve God and those who do not. Malachi 3:13-18

The Lord Jesus said;

“Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”Matthew 19:17

Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.” Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. John 14:21,23-24

The Apostle Paul said:

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.Ephesians 5:6

In Romans 6:16-22 Paul tells us that obedience leads to righteous that leads to holiness and the result is eternal life.

John said;

And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love. 2 John 1:6

John the baptist said;

the ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.” Luke 3:9


Am I a Catholic? No.
I fellowship with the G12 born again congregation and I learned these things from the WORD of God.


This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us. 1 John 3:16,23-24

But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, Philippians 3:20

..."OUR SALVATION IS NEARER NOW THAN WHEN WE FIRST BELIEVED"

...Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’” “You will not surely die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”...
Genesis 3:1‭-‬19


Does a person who teaches obedience to God causes another person to sin by doing so?


Would any person who don't have FAITH in God teach obedience to God? Or would the deceiver be TEACHING obedience to God as a deception? Would he not rather teach DISOBEDIENCE in His attempt to deceive the believers?


Is it not those who condemn those who teach obedience to God who DOES NOT HAVE FAITH in God and CAUSES A PERSON TO SIN?


Is it not that sin is the transgression of the law?(1 john 3:4)

Is it obedience to God to break the law?


Who then causes another person to sin?


...At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

2 He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3 And he said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5 “And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6 But IF ANYONE CAUSES ONE OF THESE LITTLE ONES WHO “BELIEVE” IN ME TO SIN, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

7 “Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but WOE TO THE MAN THROUGH WHOM THEY COME FROM! 8 If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be THROWN INTO ETERNAL FIRE. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be THROWN INTO THE FIRE OF HELL. matthew 18:1-9


...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things GOD'S WRATH COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT. ephesians 5:6
 
J

J70x7

Guest
Your working for gospel does not make the grade.....we are saved by faith and faith ALONE....anything beyond that equates to rewards or a lack thereof......

FAITH plus ANYTHING to obtain or maintain salvation = false and not of God......!!
John 5:36
But I have a greater testimony than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to perfect; the works themselves, which I do, give testimony of me, that the Father hath sent me.
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
161
43
#75,880

The truth is that the deceiver has been deceiving from the beginning until now.

How would we know who were the ones that were deceived?

We know that Eve was deceived when she believed the deceiver and disobeyed God's command.

Who are the deceivers and who were deceived?

...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Matthew 24:10‭-‬14‭, ‬24

...For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
2 Corinthians 11:13‭-‬15

...And those that were deceived believed in the deceivers mentioned above and disobeyed God's commands because they were made to believe that they would not surely die, IOW, "always saved". But scriptures warn us not to be deceived;

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.
Ephesians 5:6‭-‬7

...Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ” “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”...
Genesis 3:1‭-‬19

Does a person who teaches obedience to God causes another person to sin by doing so?


Would any person who don't have FAITH in God teach obedience to God? Or would the deceiver be TEACHING obedience to God as a deception? Would he not rather teach DISOBEDIENCE in His attempt to deceive the believers?


Is it not those who condemn those who teach obedience to God who DOES NOT HAVE FAITH in God and CAUSES A PERSON TO SIN?


Is it not that sin is the transgression of the law?(1 john 3:4)

Is it obedience to God to break the law?


Who then causes another person to sin?


...At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

2 He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3 And he said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5 “And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6 But IF ANYONE CAUSES ONE OF THESE LITTLE ONES WHO “BELIEVE” IN ME TO SIN, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

7 “Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but WOE TO THE MAN THROUGH WHOM THEY COME FROM! 8 If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be THROWN INTO ETERNAL FIRE. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be THROWN INTO THE FIRE OF HELL. matthew 18:1-9


...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things GOD'S WRATH COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT. ephesians 5:6
 
J

J70x7

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1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.
 
J

J70x7

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Matthew 16:26
For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?
 
J

J70x7

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1 Tinothy 1:9
Knowing this, that the law is not made for the just man, but for the unjust and disobedient, for the ungodly, and for sinners, for the wicked and defiled, for murderers of fathers, and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
 

posthuman

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1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.
Then Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, “Please let us detain you so that we may prepare a young goat for you.” The angel of the LORD said to Manoah, “Though you detain me, I will not eat your food, but if you prepare a burnt offering, then offer it to the LORD.” For Manoah did not know that He was the angel of the LORD. Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, “What is your name, so that when your words come to pass, we may honor you?” But the angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?” So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering and offered it on the rock to the LORD, and He performed wonders while Manoah and his wife looked on. For it came about when the flame went up from the altar toward heaven, that the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar. When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground.
Now the angel of the LORD did not appear to Manoah or his wife again. Then Manoah knew that He was the angel of the LORD. So Manoah said to his wife, “We will surely die, for we have seen God.” But his wife said to him, “If the LORD had desired to kill us, He would not have accepted a burnt offering and a grain offering from our hands, nor would He have shown us all these things, nor would He have let us hear things like this at this time.”
(Judges 13:15-23)
 

posthuman

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No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
(John 13:13)
For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them, but the righteousness based on faith says, “do not say in your heart, ‘who will ascend into heaven?’”
(Romans 10:5-6)
 
J

J70x7

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Matthew 3:15
And Jesus answering, said to him: Suffer it to be so now. For so it becometh us to fulfill all justice. Then he suffered him.
 
J

J70x7

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Philippians 3:8
Furthermore I count all things to be but loss for the excellent knowledge of Jesus Christ my Lord; for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but as dung, that I may gain Christ:
 
J

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1 John 5:36
But I have a greater testimony than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to perfect; the works themselves, which I do, give testimony of me, that the Father hath sent me.
 

VCO

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...Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man does not live on bread alone, but on EVERY WORD THAT COMES FROM THE MOUTH OF GOD.’”Matthew 4:4

Belief without obedience cannot SAVE.

"As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." James 2:26

Does a person who teaches obedience to God causes another person to sin by doing so?


Would any person who don't have FAITH in God teach obedience to God? Or would the deceiver be TEACHING obedience to God as a deception? Would he not rather teach DISOBEDIENCE in His attempt to deceive the believers?


Is it not those who condemn those who teach obedience to God who DOES NOT HAVE FAITH in God and CAUSES A PERSON TO SIN?


Is it not that sin is the transgression of the law?(1 john 3:4)

Is it obedience to God to break the law?


Who then causes another person to sin?


...At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

2 He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3 And he said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5 “And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6 But IF ANYONE CAUSES ONE OF THESE LITTLE ONES WHO “BELIEVE” IN ME TO SIN, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

7 “Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but WOE TO THE MAN THROUGH WHOM THEY COME FROM! 8 If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be THROWN INTO ETERNAL FIRE. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be THROWN INTO THE FIRE OF HELL. matthew 18:1-9


The Bible warns us about false Teachers and prophets.

... But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority. Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish. They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness. But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—a beast without speech—who spoke with a man’s voice and restrained the prophet’s madness. These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.” 2 Peter 2:1-22(see also the book of jude)


...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things GOD'S WRATH COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT. ephesians 5:6

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We have learned that ONLY a false teachers answer almost every post with EXTREMELY LONG POSTS.



AND your statement in RED above, that is a FALSE GOSPEL.


You are SAVED at the moment you FIRST BELIEVED.

Because GOD Poured HIS LOVE into your HEART the Moment YOU WERE SAVED, YOU WILL Walk in Obedience out of LOVE:

John 14:15 (NIV)
15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command.


1 John 5:3 (HCSB)
3 For this is what love for God is: to keep His commands. Now His commands are not a burden,


Obedience to HIM is ONLY NOT A BURDEN, when it is done out of a MOTIVE OF LOVE. The ONLY MOTIVE GOD RESPECTS is when it is DONE OUT OF PURE LOVE FOR HIM. ANY OTHER MOTIVE FOR WORKS IS FILTHY RAGS.


YOUR FALSE GOSPEL THEORY, can be PROVED WRONG WITH ONE VERSE:

1 Corinthians 3:15 (GWT)
15 If his work is burned up, he will suffer {the loss}. However, he will be saved, though it will be like going through a fire.


PROVING THAT WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION. But he who is ALREADY SAVED, will want to obey out of LOVE FOR HIM.

We have BEEN Through the FALSE GOSPEL BELIEFS of "YOU MUST OBEY TO BE SAVED", so many times in the Past, and all of you have misinterpreted James 2:26, 1 John 3:4, and EVERY VERSE you can bring up HAS BEEN Proven False, because of your false teacher's misinterpretation. Actually, you are bringing nothing new to the table, that we have not adequately refuted many, many times in the past.

Ecclesiastes 1:9 (HCSB)
9 What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done; there is nothing new under the sun.


If you want to see what we BELIEVE HERE, you are welcome to read from Page one ON.

As You can see, you are wasting your time HERE, and our Time.