Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
As I mentioned before, the KJV and the NASB translate the Greek word "peirasmos" in Luke 8:13 as temptation. Strong's #3986: peirasmos (pronounced pi-ras-mos') from 3985; a putting to proof (by experiment (of good), experience (of evil), solicitation, discipline or provocation); by implication, adversity:--temptation.

Included in the Thayer's Lexicon - 1b1) an enticement to sin, temptation, whether arising from the desires or from the outward circumstances.
1b2) an internal temptation to sin.
1b2a) of the temptation by which the devil sought to divert Jesus the Messiah from his divine errand. - https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/G3986/peirasmos.htm

The Greek word for "testing" in James 1:3 is "dokimion" (different Greek word).

Strongs #1383
Original Word: δοκίμιον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: dokimion
Phonetic Spelling: (dok-im'-ee-on)
Definition: a testing
Usage: a test, trial, what is genuine.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 1383 dokímion (a neuter noun) what is found approved (genuine) after testing, focusing on the inevitable results of this. - https://biblehub.com/greek/1383.htm
Oh for goodness sakes MMD....
Who cares what the Greek word is...
It doesn't change what Jesus was saying...


Luke 8:13
JESUS SAID they BELIEVED for a while and THEN FELL AWAY.

BELIEVE means something.
Acts 13:30-31
30and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”



You cannot have it both ways:

1. I hear on this thread that ALL one has to do to be saved is to BELIEVE and he will be saved.
NOTHING else required.

2. Then when it SUITS YOU, I hear that BELIEVE doesn't really mean believe because of the Greek.

HOWEVER,
NONE on your side of the fence...like to post what BELIEVE means in the Greek because it would go against your grain.

Make up your mind MMD.
What does BELIEVE mean....
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
What about those who stop believing with no root? like luke 8:13

They werent eternally saved!

Perhaps they had a dead faith with no repentance!
Do you suppose Jesus knew what BELIEVE means?
How was their faith a dead faith if they RECEIVED the word with JOY?

People usually have a reason to FALL AWAY from their faith...It's usually temptation or tribulation.

Do you think Jesus didn't understand human nature?
Do you think He didn't know what He was talking about?
He spoke as one with authority...
Mathew 7:29

Do you not accept that Jesus is God?


Re: Luke 8:13
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
Would you be kind enough to share the scripture where Moses got drunk after the flood. Thx, in advance.
Genesis 9:20-21 Then Noah began farming and planted a vineyard. And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

AHAHHAHAHHA GOOD CATCH..........My BAD
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I have no idea what this is about. And I wouldn't purposely try to show EG in error.
You did not anyway

He said he was leaving, yet again he proves his word is meaningless.

What happend was he interpreted DC as saying something DC never said, i even asked DC if he meant that, and DC denied it, in fact Mac here was in error interpreting DC the way he did, and EG called him out, and he is mad.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
MY bad and a correction.... @FlyingDove caught this typo which I must correct....I am currently battling a sinus/double ear infection and on some juiced up cough meds to keep me from hacking my lungs out....I wrote that MOSES got drunk after the flood instead of Noah...my bad....here is the correction....thanks Dove for pointing it out

dcontroversal said:
The bible speaks in numerous places of the children of God....and their level of maturity, fruit bearing, works etc......

a. SOME are faithful, grow to maturity and produce an abundance of fruit
b. Some are saved, remain babes in Christ due to a lack of growth and produce very little
c. Some are saved, remain worldly and carnal and the fruit is choked out due to being worldly

I cite the Corinthian church as case example one.......it had ALL three of the above in it and some 15 errors

Thomas walked with JESUS for three years and had DOUBT and DID Not believe he was resurrected
Peter walked with JESUS three years and walked on water and was told WHEN you are CONVERTED strengthen the brethern and denied the Lord three times
David was after the mind an heart of God yet committed adultery, murder and numbered the military
Abraham was deceptive about his wife to save his own skin
NOAH got drunk after the flood

Proof of growth and maturity...

Abraham.....Believed God and left his home country...HOW many years before he was "whacked" and how many years later was he mature enough to OFFER ISAAC on the ALTAR.........

MOSES took 80 years of preparation before he was chosen to LEAD the children of ISRAEL........

THE BIG ONE.....THE 70 that were rejoicing that they had the ability to cast out DEMONS....JESUS said....DO not rejoice in this.....REJOICE that YOUR NAMES are written IN HEAVEN....

TELL me...WHAT did they DO when they heard a difficult message about eating the flesh of JESUS and drinking his BLOOD........THEY got OFFENDED and walked away.....YET JESUS had said their NAMES were written in HEAVEN......NO where does it say they lost their salvation.........NO WHERE
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
No one loses salvation....one is either saved or lost......there is no saved and then lost.........I do not buy what most believe about the parable of the sower and 3 of the 4 being lost......

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

lambanó: to take, receive
Original Word: λαμβάνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: lambanó
Phonetic Spelling: (lam-ban'-o)
Definition: to take, receive
Usage: (a) I receive, get, (b) I take, lay hold of.


"The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy

lambanó: to take, receive
Original Word: λαμβάνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: lambanó
Phonetic Spelling: (lam-ban'-o)
Definition: to take, receive
Usage: (a) I receive, get, (b) I take, lay hold of

Was the sheep saved and then became lost?
Was the sheep never saved? Then why would Jesus use the word lost?
(I won't list the scripture....just like YOU never do)


Also, PLEASE explain this verse:

John 8:51 Jesus said:
51“Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”


Truly, truly.......means to pay attention...Jesus is going to say something very very important.

He uses the word IF,,,,,which is conditional......IF you do something a condition will exist.
IF you do NOT do something a condition will NOT exist.

What is the condition? (you love context when it suits you)

IF anyone KEEPS MY WORD,,,,he will NEVER SEE DEATH.


OK. Now what happens if someone DOES NOT KEEP HIS WORD?
Answer: He WILL see death.
 

unclesilas

Active member
Feb 6, 2019
483
170
43
Who said anything about throwing out the KJV? "they believed for a while then fell away" is not the problem. The depth of what was believed was the problem. In contrast with the "good ground hearer/4th soil," the heart of the shallow ground hearer was "not good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who believe in a shallow way and rejoice at the preaching of the gospel (emotional response) without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.

I see that you completely ignored the facts that I presented to you in regards to the word believe "pisteuo" in post #85,687. A casual reading of Luke 8:13 would probably cause many people (who also ignore the facts) to believe a loss of salvation was being discussed. I've heard numerous works-salvationists over the years (including Roman Catholics, Mormons, SDA's etc..) cite Luke 8:13 as a proof text of losing salvation. Red flag.

*BTW, you still have not shown me the specific words "lose or lost salvation" in scripture. A casual reading of James 2:24 "justified by works" has resulted in many people interpreting this verse to mean we are "saved by works" in contradiction to numerous passages of scripture (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). This is why it's absolutely critical to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine.

You can keep waiting. You can't even get past Luke 8:13.
Im disappointed you do not want to show me your deeper understanding of rom 7:7-11. No, I have not shown you the specific words ''lose salvation have I. Just words like:
They believed for a while then fell away
People sharing in the Holy Spirit who could not be brought back to repentance
Then there is the dog returning to its vomit Peter mentioned. I assume you believe the people were not saved then either though they escaped the corruption of the world by knowing Christ. Or possibly you believe they did not end up actually losing their salvation as Peter did not actually use those words
Thern I am sure you can explain the following away also, through the greek and concordances:

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? Heb10:26-29
And of course, those verses do not use the words ''lost their salvation do they so they do not count I expect.

You can explain anything away if you try hard enough, and you certainly are a good trier aren't you. I could go on and on, but what would be the point, you would somehow manage to overturn the plainly written word with your greek and concordances wouldn't you. Im afraid my understanding is not as deep in that regard as yours, that I do accept
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Are you saying that the KJV and the NASB are not reputable English translations? Keep in mind that the New Testament was originally written in Greek then later translated into English and "peirasmos" in Luke 8:13 and "dominion" in James 1:3 are two different Greek words with two different meanings. This really matters, but if you are more interested in accommodating your biased doctrine at all costs, then it won't matter to you.
Some people will not wish to go that deep, especially if it puts a dampner on their belief system (makes it suspect)
People who do not wish to go to the origional text have issues, and all one can do is wonder why, and in the nd, that is exactly it

The greek has two words two meaning, the english uses one word, thus by defenition, the greek is more reliable. Period
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,563
13,547
113
58
Oh for goodness sakes MMD....
Who cares what the Greek word is...
It doesn't change what Jesus was saying...

Luke 8:13
JESUS SAID they BELIEVED for a while and THEN FELL AWAY.

BELIEVE means something.
Acts 13:30-31
30and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”


You cannot have it both ways:

1. I hear on this thread that ALL one has to do to be saved is to BELIEVE and he will be saved.
NOTHING else required.

2. Then when it SUITS YOU, I hear that BELIEVE doesn't really mean believe because of the Greek.

HOWEVER,
NONE on your side of the fence...like to post what BELIEVE means in the Greek because it would go against your grain.

Make up your mind MMD.
What does BELIEVE mean....
I thought that you were done with this thread? You said, "Who cares what the Greek word is" which says it all for you. You are very satisfied with what you already believe and don't want to be confused with the facts. Jesus said they BELIEVED for a while, but He DID NOT SAY they were SAVED for a while. The same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe "pisteuo" on the Lord Jesus Christ and are not saved. (Acts 16:31) *The CONTEXT determines the content of what is believed.

John has portrayed people who "believe" but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of firmly rooted consummated belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. You called that saved?
 

Goodnewsman

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2016
710
102
43
1. He was still a son, he still had his fathers blood, so legally and naturally and physically, in any court of law, he was his fathers son,
2. Yes he was lost, and yes he was dead, i was dead for 5 years, and i was lost and wandering, i was also continually chastened by god, if i commited certain sins, i was still confronted with guilt and shame, i could hear god calling me, i just resisted because of what happened. Which proved i was still a son, (maybe you did not experience this? )
3. It is why the son returned, and it is why I eventually fell on my pride and came back, in fact, after it happened, i saw how god worked to do what he promised he would do, he left the flock and came and found me and brought me back (the circumstances can not be explained any other way (again, maybe you did not experience that? )
4, please. From now on, do not say you are not trying to save yourself, you just admitted a person has to of his own power not walk away, not continue to stay away, or bring hmself back. Ie, he had to save himself or he would “lose” his salvation
Looks like the only thing you and I will agree on is our love for fried Bologna.

Did you forget that the reason Jesus was giving this parable? He was being accused of eating with SINNERS

Its funny but what you call me trying to "save myself" was exactly how the Prodigal Son was saved!!!

1.) He chose to leave home
2.) He chose how long to stay
3.) He got sick of sin and came to himself and he chose to go home

IF THATS WHAT YOU CALL TRYING TO SAVE MYSELF.....IM GUILTY.....WHAT IS THE OPPOSITE???......TRY TO LOSE MYSELF?

The father didn't go get the Prodigal son as you suggested. I think you confused the Prodigal with the lost sheep right before it????



Three things were lost in like 15...a sheep that wondered away, a coin the woman lost, and the Prodigal son..

The shepherd went looking for the sheep that wondered off

The woman lit a candle and looked for her coin

NOBODY WENT LOOKING FOR THE PRODIGAL SON. HE HAD TO "COME TO HIMSELF". AND COME HOME ON HIS OWN ......WAS HE "WORKING" FOR HIS SALVATION????

I don't think you have ever responded to this question.....

you are arguing "Once a son, always a son,"
Your argument proves that we can never be saved in the first place, for
we are all born "children of wrath" (Eph. 2:3), and "children of the devil" (I John 3:10). If once born into a
family we could never cease to be children of that family, then we must always be children of
disobedience.???????NO???

Again I ask
is a dead son and a lost son any better off than no son at all?
 

unclesilas

Active member
Feb 6, 2019
483
170
43
Oh for goodness sakes MMD....
Who cares what the Greek word is...
..
I have spent much time on these kind of websites. And it is always the same. I have only met one person who constantly liked to quote the greek who had true understanding of the core of the message. Bassically it is used to try and overturn what is plainly written in reputable englisjh translations when it does not fit in with a persons beliefs. Its not hard to do really, you have a set belief, along comes a difficult verse, so you look everywhere you can to seek an explanation to overturn it. Those who spend their lives, or much of them delving into concordances, the greek, ancient manuscripts don't seem to talk much about the Holy Spirit, they are probably too busy with their studies. But where does this studying truly lead? It leads them away from the simple truth, of what is plainly written, and scripture is just made to fit their errant beliefs. Im sure you know, anything can be explained away on the internet, never doubt thaT
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Context dictates other wise....and labano is a completed action....to receive to oneself is not the same as believe..........and to be honest I cannot believe that came out of your mouth because you know FULL WELL that the comparison is between mere belief IN God and actual SAVING faith into CHRIST........and NO....it is not the same word....same root, but different word and different application.....I CANNOT BELIEVE YOU SAID THAT MAN.....to TRY and disprove a valid point I made

John 3:16 Believes

pisteuó: to believe, entrust
Original Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Definition: to believe, entrust
Usage: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. <--pisteuousinbelieve [that],V-PIA-3P2532 [e]καὶ

The context is -->THE DEVILS believe that --->GOD IS ONE or ONE GOD

4771 [e]σὺ
syYouPPro-N2S4100 [e]πιστεύεις
pisteueisbelieveV-PIA-2S3754 [e]ὅτι
hotithatConj1520 [e]εἷς
heisoneAdj-NMS1510 [e]ἐστιν
estinisV-PIA-3S3588 [e]
ho-Art-NMS2316 [e]Θεός;
TheosGod.N-NMS2573 [e]καλῶς
kalōsWellAdv4160 [e]ποιεῖς·
poieisyou are doing!V-PIA-2S2532 [e]καὶ
kaiEvenConj3588 [e]τὰ
tatheArt-NNP1140 [e]δαιμόνια
daimoniademonsN-NNP4100 [e]πιστεύουσιν
pisteuousinbelieve [that],V-PIA-3P2532 [e]καὶ
kaiandConj5425 [e]φρίσσουσιν.
phrissousinshudder!V-PIA-3P

JOHN ---->pisteuó: to believe, entrust

JAMES, DEVILS--->pisteuousin believe [that],V-PIA-3P2532 [e]καὶ
Sorry bro you cant have it both ways

I can have something in my hand and even taste it, it does not mean a thing,

Jesus said do not just taste the word, but gnaw it and chew it, take it in.

The people paul was attacking in galations recieved the word, yet paul called them out and said they were not saved if they added things to that word, even if they had not added those things yet, (a warning especially concerning circumcision)

The people of james recieved the word, yet they never allowed the word to make them a new creation, because although they believed, they never came to tru saving faith,

This is no different than those people, they recieved the word, but were never rooted, thats why when trouble came, they ran, because they were not rooted, establish, groundd by god himself. They were never saved,

Someone got me to rethink the third group, as a group who stopped producing fruit, that if this is so, they were saved,

But i see the first group as unbelievers

The second group as people who try out church, and who have never repented, they may have believed, but their faith was not in christ, iether religion, (legalism) or the world (licentious)

The third group, (if that person is right) were saved, then became prodigal children, or people who produced fruit when they were first saved as they wer excited, but never grow and remained babes

Fourth, people who were saved and by gods grace grew to maturity.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
MY bad and a correction.... @FlyingDove caught this typo which I must correct....I am currently battling a sinus/double ear infection and on some juiced up cough meds to keep me from hacking my lungs out....I wrote that MOSES got drunk after the flood instead of Noah...my bad....here is the correction....thanks Dove for pointing it out

dcontroversal said:
The bible speaks in numerous places of the children of God....and their level of maturity, fruit bearing, works etc......

a. SOME are faithful, grow to maturity and produce an abundance of fruit
b. Some are saved, remain babes in Christ due to a lack of growth and produce very little
c. Some are saved, remain worldly and carnal and the fruit is choked out due to being worldly

I cite the Corinthian church as case example one.......it had ALL three of the above in it and some 15 errors

Thomas walked with JESUS for three years and had DOUBT and DID Not believe he was resurrected
Peter walked with JESUS three years and walked on water and was told WHEN you are CONVERTED strengthen the brethern and denied the Lord three times
David was after the mind an heart of God yet committed adultery, murder and numbered the military
Abraham was deceptive about his wife to save his own skin
NOAH got drunk after the flood

Proof of growth and maturity...

Abraham.....Believed God and left his home country...HOW many years before he was "whacked" and how many years later was he mature enough to OFFER ISAAC on the ALTAR.........

MOSES took 80 years of preparation before he was chosen to LEAD the children of ISRAEL........

THE BIG ONE.....THE 70 that were rejoicing that they had the ability to cast out DEMONS....JESUS said....DO not rejoice in this.....REJOICE that YOUR NAMES are written IN HEAVEN....

TELL me...WHAT did they DO when they heard a difficult message about eating the flesh of JESUS and drinking his BLOOD........THEY got OFFENDED and walked away.....YET JESUS had said their NAMES were written in HEAVEN......NO where does it say they lost their salvation.........NO WHERE
Well,
I guess transubstantiation is right, then.

Abraham left his home IMMEDIATELY.
Moses gave up his life of leisure to follow God.
None of the apostles believe Jesus came back to life.
Your comment about Peter deserves no response.

Your Letter c up above is referring to lost persons.
If you remain worldly and carnal you cannot also be saved.
1 Corinthians 2:14
But the person without the Spirit does not receive what comes from God's Spirit, because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to understand it since it is evaluated spiritually.

Galatians 6:7-9
7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.



Notice the following:

1. God wants obedience....He cannot be mocked and will give to us what we sow.

2. If we sow from the flesh, we will reap corruption...
If we sow to the Spirit, we will reap ETERNAL LIFE.

3. Let us not lose heart in doing good because IN TIME...at the end of our life...we will reap what we sow.
John 5:28-29
Roman 8:24-25
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Looks like the only thing you and I will agree on is our love for fried Bologna.

Did you forget that the reason Jesus was giving this parable? He was being accused of eating with SINNERS

Its funny but what you call me trying to "save myself" was exactly how the Prodigal Son was saved!!!

1.) He chose to leave home
2.) He chose how long to stay
3.) He got sick of sin and came to himself and he chose to go home

IF THATS WHAT YOU CALL TRYING TO SAVE MYSELF.....IM GUILTY.....WHAT IS THE OPPOSITE???......TRY TO LOSE MYSELF?

The father didn't go get the Prodigal son as you suggested. I think you confused the Prodigal with the lost sheep right before it????



Three things were lost in like 15...a sheep that wondered away, a coin the woman lost, and the Prodigal son..

The shepherd went looking for the sheep that wondered off

The woman lit a candle and looked for her coin

NOBODY WENT LOOKING FOR THE PRODIGAL SON. HE HAD TO "COME TO HIMSELF". AND COME HOME ON HIS OWN ......WAS HE "WORKING" FOR HIS SALVATION????

I don't think you have ever responded to this question.....

you are arguing "Once a son, always a son,"
Your argument proves that we can never be saved in the first place, for
we are all born "children of wrath" (Eph. 2:3), and "children of the devil" (I John 3:10). If once born into a
family we could never cease to be children of that family, then we must always be children of
disobedience.???????NO???

Again I ask
is a dead son and a lost son any better off than no son at all?
I think you missed the whole point

The prodigal sin did not of his power chose just because

He came home because he was dead, he was lost, all his blessings had been used up, he basically had two choices, commit suicide, or just allow himself to die, or go to where he was being drawn, home

Thats what happened to me, exactly what happened, why was i dead and lost? Because of gods discipline, and because i had lost everything, the only thing that stopped me from commiting suicide was that my kids would find me, it was at that time, at my lowest point, my best friend called, who i had not seen or heard from in about 6 years, and led me back to church.

It was all God man, i can not take credit for that

Again, maybe you did. Not experience that?

And by the way, no, as long as you claim eternal life, which god said we have, and the seal of the spirit, which god said is promised until the ressurection day, can be lost, we will not agree, except on bologna?.

I am sure we agree on other things though,
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
Well,
I guess transubstantiation is right, then.

Abraham left his home IMMEDIATELY.
Moses gave up his life of leisure to follow God.
None of the apostles believe Jesus came back to life.
Your comment about Peter deserves no response.

Your Letter c up above is referring to lost persons.
If you remain worldly and carnal you cannot also be saved.
1 Corinthians 2:14
But the person without the Spirit does not receive what comes from God's Spirit, because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to understand it since it is evaluated spiritually.

Galatians 6:7-9
7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.



Notice the following:

1. God wants obedience....He cannot be mocked and will give to us what we sow.

2. If we sow from the flesh, we will reap corruption...
If we sow to the Spirit, we will reap ETERNAL LIFE.

3. Let us not lose heart in doing good because IN TIME...at the end of our life...we will reap what we sow.
John 5:28-29
Roman 8:24-25
Nice try Fran.......Paul called the Corinthian church CARNAL.....and they were saved...get your facts straight...your wishy washy bounce around pseudo blend dogma is rally getting old.........get HONEST or do not address me.....that simple Fran
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,563
13,547
113
58
Im disappointed you do not want to show me your deeper understanding of rom 7:7-11.
Not as disappointed as I am with you.

No, I have not shown you the specific words ''lose salvation have I.
No you have not because those specific words are not found in the Bible.

Just words like:
They believed for a while then fell away
People sharing in the Holy Spirit who could not be brought back to repentance
Then there is the dog returning to its vomit Peter mentioned. I assume you believe the people were not saved then either though they escaped the corruption of the world by knowing Christ. Or possibly you believe they did not end up actually losing their salvation as Peter did not actually use those words
Thern I am sure you can explain the following away also, through the greek and concordances:
Typical on the surface, biased interpretations of losing salvation. Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature, along with new desires. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than merely cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature."

Corruption (Strongs #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution. Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Peter 1:4).

*Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these people because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment. *Judas Iscariot is a good example of someone who rejected the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and was never saved.

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? Heb10:26-29
And of course, those verses do not use the words ''lost their salvation do they so they do not count I expect.
In Hebrews 10:26, To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).

*Notice how I properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. ;)

If the word 'sanctified' in Hebrews 10:29 is used to describe saved people who lost their salvation as you teach, then we have a contradiction because the writer of Hebrews in verse 10 said "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10) and in verse 14, we read, "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14) *Also, in Romans 8:30, we read - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them.

*NOWHERE in the context does it specifically say the person who "trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant" was "saved." The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in verse 29 "on the surface" appears to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation.

*In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse. (And by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians without experiencing salvation as Paul clearly explained. So the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant saved, then you would have to say that the Sabbath was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), the Lord was saved (Leviticus 10:3), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36) and many other things that do not line up with scripture.

In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to unbelievers and not saved people: But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

So after considering the CONTEXT, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as a participant in the Hebrew Christian community of believers, but who has committed apostasy by renouncing his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and trampling under foot the work and the person of Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with the Hebrew Christian community was only superficial and that he was among them, but not of them.

You can explain anything away if you try hard enough, and you certainly are a good trier aren't you. I could go on and on, but what would be the point, you would somehow manage to overturn the plainly written word with your greek and concordances wouldn't you. Im afraid my understanding is not as deep in that regard as yours, that I do accept
I have explained nothing away, but have properly harmonized scripture with scripture.
 

unclesilas

Active member
Feb 6, 2019
483
170
43
Not as disappointed as I am with you.

No you have not because those specific words are not found in the Bible.

Typical on the surface, biased interpretations of losing salvation. Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature, along with new desires. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than merely cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature."

Corruption (Strongs #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution. Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Peter 1:4).

*Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these people because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment. *Judas Iscariot is a good example of someone who rejected the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and was never saved.

In Hebrews 10:26, To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).

*Notice how I properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. ;)

If the word 'sanctified' in Hebrews 10:29 is used to describe saved people who lost their salvation as you teach, then we have a contradiction because the writer of Hebrews in verse 10 said "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10) and in verse 14, we read, "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14) *Also, in Romans 8:30, we read - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them.

*NOWHERE in the context does it specifically say the person who "trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant" was "saved." The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in verse 29 "on the surface" appears to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation.

*In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse. (And by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians without experiencing salvation as Paul clearly explained. So the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant saved, then you would have to say that the Sabbath was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), the Lord was saved (Leviticus 10:3), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36) and many other things that do not line up with scripture.

In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to unbelievers and not saved people: But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

So after considering the CONTEXT, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as a participant in the Hebrew Christian community of believers, but who has committed apostasy by renouncing his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and trampling under foot the work and the person of Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with the Hebrew Christian community was only superficial and that he was among them, but not of them.

I have explained nothing away, but have properly harmonized scripture with scripture.
Its quite simple really. You can easily prove to me your deep understanding of the bible through the greek and concordances, wouldn't you like to do that? Im sure you would. Rom7:7-11 as requested?

Only so far, on the internet, when I find people who enjoy so much quoting the greek and concordances they seem most reluctant to get into such exegesis. Lets hope you are not just the same as nearly all of them. Spiritual enlightenment through the Holy Spirit is proved by being able to elucidate on scripture, without the need for concordances and the greek
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
4,153
1,999
113
And you still don't get it do you. Its not a matter of how many sins you commit its the fact you stop believing.
let me say it once more. Stop believing and you have no saviour from sin, you lose your righteousness/justification in God's sight. For you only have one righteousness/justification in God's sight: Faith in Christ. Its written all over the new testement. I see dcontroversial gave your post a thumbs up, that shows he is as lost as you are in understanding the most basic fact in the Christian faith
So, you're saying belief must be maintained after initial salvational belief? Are you saying salvation is given as a gift, and then Jesus is saying it's now up to us to maintain it?

Tell me, how long can a Christian have unbelief before salvation is lost?

A second?

A minute?

An hour, a day, a week, a month?

And what if that person believes again later in life - can they be re-saved?

If so, aren't you one of those who don't believe in multiple regenerations?

Since unbelief is a sin (John 16:9) why was not the sin of unbelief paid for the Christian via the atonement?

What if a Christian dies an alcoholic? Or a drug addict? How about if he dies as a gossiper, or a liar? What happens to the Christian who died lusting after women?

If you are correct, then grace is not unmerited, and salvation is a gift with strings attached, which negates it as a gift entirely.