Not By Works

[Chris1975]

I didn't ignore the words 'turn away from' and I also did not ignore "trusts in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS." The righteous man trusted in his own righteousness. What do we read about that in Romans 10:3? 'Turning away from' demonstrates you were never truly committed to what you turned away from. Otherwise, you would not turn away.

In Matthew 9:13, Jesus said - But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.” Who are the "righteous" here in context and were they truly righteous? 11 - And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to His disciples, “Why does your Teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” 12 When Jesus heard that, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick.

None of this passage below supports your assertions:

Ezekiel 18
20b The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live? 24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

My case has been buit over the last few posts. Look there.

Your case crumbled because you refuse to look at context thus you have no xase

 

[Chris1975]

Someone gets it

Then feel free to answer. Does a believer need to repent of these other things?

 

[Chris1975]

None of this passage below supports your assertions:

Ezekiel 18
20b The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live? 24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

Verse 20b starts with a CONTRAST between the Righteous and the Wicked, but the common effect of both actions being upon themselves. However you start with the premise in this passage that they BOTH are Wicked. How does that make any contextual sense? You have asserted that the righteous here are the self-righteous. If that was the case, then I will assert that they then cannot be called righteous but rather wicked. But this isn't the case.
Then it goes and describes when EACH side changes their ways to the other side. Your case crumbles.

 

[mailmandan]

None of this passage below supports your assertions:

Ezekiel 18
20b The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live? 24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

Sure they do and once again, this is describing a righteousness which is by the law rather than that which is by faith. Who is Ezekiel written to? Israel, under the old covenant or the Church, under the new covenant? Again (in context) ..but he "trusts in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (which in light of Romans 10:3 speaking about Israel) settles the matter for me.

 

[mailmandan]

Verse 20b starts with a CONTRAST between the Righteous and the Wicked, but the common effect of both actions being upon themselves. However you start with the premise in this passage that they BOTH are Wicked. How does that make any contextual sense? You have asserted that the righteous here are the self-righteous. If that was the case, then I will assert that they then cannot be called righteous but rather wicked. But this isn't the case. Then it goes and describes when EACH side changes their ways to the other side. Your case crumbles.

In light of Ezekiel being written to Israel under the law, along with Ezekiel 18:29; 33:13; Romans 10:3 and Matthew 9:13, your case crumbles.

 

[Chris1975]

Sure they do and once again, this is describing a righteousness which is by the law rather than that which is by faith. Who is Ezekiel written to? Israel, under the old covenant or the Church, under the new covenant? Again (in context) ..but he "trusts in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (which in light of Romans 10:3 speaking about Israel) settles the matter for me.

Both those in Israel and in the Church are/were BOTH saved by faith, and there was NEVER anyone saved apart from faith.

18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Romans 9
31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law [d]of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, [e]by the works of the law.

Yet these in the passages above are called righteous. Because they at one stage lived accordingly. But then they TURNED AWAY from this and transgressed. Because they believed, but then turned. Yet we have the wicked, who themselves also turn TOWARDS righteousness. And the only way for this to be possible is by them believing in faith.

And here, in these passages, is the TRUE distinction between those who believe and those who don't. By what they do. For out of what they believe comes their actions, either righteous or unrighteous.

 

[Chris1975]

In light of Ezekiel being written to Israel under the law, along with Ezekiel 18:29; 33:13; Romans 10:3 and Matthew 9:13, your case crumbles.

God changes not.

 

[Chris1975]

Sure they do and once again, this is describing a righteousness which is by the law rather than that which is by faith. Who is Ezekiel written to? Israel, under the old covenant or the Church, under the new covenant? Again (in context) ..but he "trusts in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (which in light of Romans 10:3 speaking about Israel) settles the matter for me.

What righteousness by the law is this you refer to?

 

[Chris1975]

What righteousness by the law is this you refer to?

If God calls them righteous (which he did) and then God says they turned from this, then we take God at His word.

When God calls them Wicked, and then they turned from their wickedness, then we take God at His word.

 

[mailmandan]

Why would God remove his light at all? If that light is required for them to repent? i.e. repent or God will remove the light. If God removes the light, how could they ever repent. What about individual believers WITHIN Ephesus? How could they now continue to walk in God's light if he has removed such light from the church?

Once again, the creativity here astounds....

Forfeiting its place of light bearing and witness to others doesn't mean that believers in the church of Ephesus are no longer in the light. Those who are saved/believers are in the light.

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

Ephesians 5:8 - for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light.

1 John 1:6 - If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of children of the devil. Walking in the light is descriptive of children of God.

In 1 John 2:9, we read - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. In verse 11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

*Compare with 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, (compare with 1 John 1:6 - does not practice the truth) nor is he who does not love his brother.

*Notice that "walks in darkness, hates his brother" is connected to "children of the devil."

 

[mailmandan]

What righteousness by the law is this you refer to?

See Romans 10:1-4 and Philippians 3:6-9.

 

[mailmandan]

If God calls them righteous (which he did) and then God says they turned from this, then we take God at His word.

When God calls them Wicked, and then they turned from their wickedness, then we take God at His word.

Do we also take God as His word in Romans 10:1-4 and Matthew 9:13? Scripture must harmonize with scripture, so something has to give.

 

[oyster67]

Colossians 3
3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Then feel free to answer. Does a believer need to repent of these other things?

What other things

 

[John146]

Do we also take God as His word in Romans 10:1-4 and Matthew 9:13? Scripture must harmonize with scripture, so something has to give.

All of Scripture does not have to harmonize. Scripture must be rightly divided. There are divisions to be made as to not contradict especially Church age doctrine from Israel’s doctrine.

 

[Melach]

God changes not.

my goodness. God does not change Himself but covenants do change.
you are to circumcise everyone on the 8th day remember God changes not so get to work. if yuo dont they are removed from the people

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If God calls them righteous (which he did) and then God says they turned from this, then we take God at His word.

When God calls them Wicked, and then they turned from their wickedness, then we take God at His word.

But we do not when god says they never knew him. Or he never knew them or they will never hunger and thirst

Only when it suits your belief

 

[Lightskin]

The simplicity of Christ’s saving grace is misunderstood by some folks to the point that it’s actually disturbing and heartbreaking.

 

[Amorette]

I've been there too! Whats going on? What makes you feel that way? Did something happen? Sorry for being lazy and not reading the whole thread.
Now im not no doctor but I can relate to what you're feeling, sounds like DEPRESSION CITY, population: YOU

I lived in that city all my life, ever since I could remember i was never interested in ANYTHING, other folks was excited about getting their driver's licenses, cars, girlfriends, jobs, university positions WHATEVER, I never got excited for anything in my entire life and everytime I was happy, i was ACTING. Then when I got saved I was the same way for a long time and I kept praying God help me, I tried very briefly antidepressants only ONCE and i immediately stopped when i noticed these things wont fix me they just NUMB the symptoms and could make me go from a DEPRESSED MAN to a DEPRESSED dopehead man, I had seen so many people go through that.

How God gave me the victory over depression was by removing IDLENESS. An idlemind is the devil's workshop. Even if you couldn't walk, if you can TALK, you can influence other people and give them words of encouragement, wisdom, motivation... in other words you got a PURPOSE for existance. God put you here for a REASON, you have a CALLING, and God wants you to roll up your sleeves and WORK HARD in whatever HE is caling you to do!

So my suggestion is, switch your prayer to: GOD lift me up and SHOW ME the path you want me to walk and I will walk on it.

I come from the mean streets so I can relate to the inmates and ex-inmates and all the OGs, that is my call to ministry to WITNESS to those kind of people, to help them program and get rid of alcoholism or substance abuse and motivate them through the triple W method, Worship, Workout, Work. To be there for folks!

Once you find your calling, and you RUN WITH IT, you simply DONT GOT TIME to be depressed, and once the calling is from GOD, it wont feel like a CHORE like doing dishes. But you'll do it out of LOVE for God and you'll do it with JOY. You'll wake up in the morning yelling LETS GOOOOOO, say your prayers while still in bed, crack open a bible, SMASH those burpees, drink some coffee and start the day.

I know it seems like there is NO WAY OUT and its nothing but blackness and depression and sadness and every day is MISERY and my message sounds like some Joel Osteen self-talk NONSENSE but TRUST ME, with God there is always a way out of depression, NO MATTER THE CIRCUMSTANCES.

PS: Proper diet, exercise and getting enough sleep can also help with depression, JUST SAYING THAT in case your depression is mostly related to something like that, I dont know your circumstances so dont tihnk im PREACHING to you, just trying to help out here.

Lord show this woman her calling and release her from the prison of depression and let the joy of the LORD overwhelm her. In Jesus' name I pray. amen!

Sorry for being lazy and not reading the whole thread.