Not By Works

[Chris1975]

In Ezekiel 18:29, we read - But the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right? But the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?

Ezekiel 33:13 - When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his OWN righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die. Did you read that? "If he trusts in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS." This is the heart of the matter here. This is describing a righteousness which is by the law rather than that which is by faith.

*The New Testament states in Romans 10:3 - "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that BELIEVES.

As James Fawcett Brown points out - righteous--one apparently such; as in Matthew 9:13, "I came not to call the righteous," that is, those who fancy themselves righteous.

You are jumping from my quoted Ezekiel 18v24 and using Ezekiel 33v13. But then you leave off the verse 12 before the verse 13, which actually explains what Ezekiel is saying. So lets post it here:

Ezekiel 33
12 “Therefore you, O son of man, say to the children of your people: ‘The righteousness of the righteous man shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression; as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall because of it in the day that he turns from his wickedness; nor shall the righteous be able to live because of his righteousness in the day that he sins.’ 13 When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die.

- so it is VERY clear that the context here talks about when the righteous turns and then sins. By just quoting verse 13 in isolation and then focussing on the word "own" you take it completely out of the context it was found in.

 

[Chris1975]

Yep, that’s what he said he would do, what good is a local group of churches if they are not producing fruit?

if a church walks away he will pull their light

a study of lamp stand and church would do you a great favor,

He will pull their light. Now what does that mean to you?

 

[Chris1975]

Yep, that’s what he said he would do, what good is a local group of churches if they are not producing fruit?

if a church walks away he will pull their light

a study of lamp stand and church would do you a great favor,

1 John 1
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Now you are getting yourself into a bit of a bind, saying Jesus will pull their light (from the church at Ephesus).

 

[mailmandan]

You do realise there is a,difference between a whole church (the church at Ephesus) and an induvidual believer do you not? Of course churches lose their way, due to false teachers, and need to repent.

but we are talking about people who repented of their sins, which led them to true saving faith, which caused them to recieve the grace which saves,

In regards to the church in Ephesus in Revelation 2, clearly the Lord wanted the church at Ephesus to repent -- to change their minds regarding their works. "You have left your first love" (verse 4). "Repent and do the first works" (verse 5). Works of love no longer characterized the church as a whole in Ephesus. In verses 2 and 6, we see that the church in Ephesus was not totally displeasing to the Lord, yet hating the deeds of the Nicolaitans and standing up for doctrinal purity still cannot be a substitute for love. So what did the Lord mean when He spoke of removing the church's lamp stand if the church in Ephesus did not repent? The removal of the lampstand is clearly figurative language. This does not mean that individuals in the church at Ephesus will lose their salvation, but the church can forfeit its place of light bearing and witness. Ephesus (located in modern day Turkey) in which the vast majority of Turkey is Islam. Go figure.

 

[Chris1975]

In regards to the church in Ephesus in Revelation 2, clearly the Lord wanted the church at Ephesus to repent -- to change their minds regarding their works. "You have left your first love" (verse 4). "Repent and do the first works" (verse 5). Works of love no longer characterized the church as a whole in Ephesus. In verses 2 and 6, we see that the church in Ephesus was not totally displeasing to the Lord, yet hating the deeds of the Nicolaitans and standing up for doctrinal purity still cannot be a substitute for love. So what did the Lord mean when He spoke of removing the church's lamp stand if the churcdh in Ephesus did not repent? The removal of the lampstand is clearly figurative language. This does not mean that individuals in the church at Ephesus will lose their salvation, but the church can forfeit its place of light bearing and witness. Ephesus (located in modern day Turkey) in which the vast majority of Turkey is Islam. Go figure.

Why would God remove his light at all? If that light is required for them to repent? i.e. repent or God will remove the light. If God removes the light, how could they ever repent. What about individual believers WITHIN Ephesus? How could they now continue to walk in God's light if he has removed such light from the church?

Once again, the creativity here astounds....

 

[Chris1975]

2 Peter 3
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

 

[Chris1975]

In regards to the church in Ephesus in Revelation 2, clearly the Lord wanted the church at Ephesus to repent -- to change their minds regarding their works. "You have left your first love" (verse 4). "Repent and do the first works" (verse 5). Works of love no longer characterized the church as a whole in Ephesus. In verses 2 and 6, we see that the church in Ephesus was not totally displeasing to the Lord, yet hating the deeds of the Nicolaitans and standing up for doctrinal purity still cannot be a substitute for love. So what did the Lord mean when He spoke of removing the church's lamp stand if the church in Ephesus did not repent? The removal of the lampstand is clearly figurative language. This does not mean that individuals in the church at Ephesus will lose their salvation, but the church can forfeit its place of light bearing and witness. Ephesus (located in modern day Turkey) in which the vast majority of Turkey is Islam. Go figure.

Eternally Grateful says repentance is no longer necessary for a believer. So how is the whole Church at Ephesus supposed to repent, if individual actions within the body of Christ cannot contribute to this?

 

[mailmandan]

You are jumping from my quoted Ezekiel 18v24 and using Ezekiel 33v13. But then you leave off the verse 12 before the verse 13, which actually explains what Ezekiel is saying. So lets post it here:

Ezekiel 33
12 “Therefore you, O son of man, say to the children of your people: ‘The righteousness of the righteous man shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression; as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall because of it in the day that he turns from his wickedness; nor shall the righteous be able to live because of his righteousness in the day that he sins.’ 13 When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die.

- so it is VERY clear that the context here talks about when the righteous turns and then sins. By just quoting verse 13 in isolation and then focussing on the word "own" you take it completely out of the context it was found in.

As I already explained, "If he trusts in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS" which is describing a righteousness which is by the law rather than that which is by faith. (Old Testament/Old Covenant). Context does not change Ezekiel 18:29 and Ezekiel 33:13, which further backs up my argument, along with Romans 10:3 and Matthew 9:13, in which I properly harmonized scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine.

 

[Chris1975]

As I already explained, "If he trusts in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS" which is describing a righteousness which is by the law rather than that which is by faith. (Old Testament/Old Covenant). Context does not change Ezekiel 18:29 and Ezekiel 33:13, which further backs up my argument, along with Romans 10:3 and Matthew 9:13, in which I properly harmonized scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine.

‘The righteousness of the righteous man shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression; (Clue: It doesn't say that that man wasn't righteous, before he decided to turn from righteousness). It is the transgression that is the object of offense. Not his righteousness

 

[mailmandan]

Eternally Grateful says repentance is no longer necessary for a believer. So how is the whole Church at Ephesus supposed to repent, if individual actions within the body of Christ cannot contribute to this?

What EG probably means is it's no longer necessary for a believer to repent and believe the gospel once they have already chosen to repent and believe the gospel. Believers can still repent about other things, which in this case in Revelation 2, it wan't about repenting and choosing to believe the gospel all over again, but the church in Ephesus as a whole needed to repent (and the new direction of that change of mind) would be getting back to doing the works they previously did and regain the depth of love they had at first. Otherwise, the church in Ephesus can forfeit its place of light bearing and witness. Today, Ephesus (located in modern day Turkey) is vast majority Islam. What does that tell you?

 

[mailmandan]

‘The righteousness of the righteous man shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression; (Clue: It doesn't say that that man wasn't righteous, before he decided to turn from righteousness). It is the transgression that is the object of offense. Not his righteousness

..but he trusts in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS" tells me everything that I need to know about his righteousness.

 

[Chris1975]

ps, a believer already repented, you can not referent once you already repented.

Did the prodigal son repent? Was he a son before he left the fathers house?

 

[Chris1975]

What EG probably means is it's no longer necessary for a believer to repent and believe the gospel once they have already chosen to repent and believe the gospel. Believers can still repent about other things, which in this case in Revelation 2, it wan't about repenting and choosing to believe the gospel all over again, but the church in Ephesus as a whole needed to repent (and the new direction of that change of mind) would be getting back to doing the works they previously did and regain the depth of love they had at first. Otherwise, the church in Ephesus can forfeit its place of light bearing and witness. Today, Ephesus (located in modern day Turkey) is vast majority Islam. What does that tell you?

So let's ask E-G then. E-G if you are reading this. Is it necessary to repent of these "other things" that MMD refers to above? We can clear up the confusion once and for all, if indeed there was any confusion.

MMD, the Jews did not cease to exist when they were displaced from Jerusalem and the Holy Land. The new "occupiers" of Jerusalem didn't become Israel or the Church. In the same way, you cannot infer that because Islam has moved into that region of Turkey that it has any relation to the Church of Ephesus

 

[Chris1975]

..but he trusts in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS" tells me everything that I need to know about his righteousness.

Then NONE of the warnings in these passages are of ANY effect. Because:
a) the righteous man was unrighteous anyway, and;
b) the man who committed transgressions was unrighteous anyway

So you ignore the words "Turns away from" in Ezekiel 18. You have to ignore the words TURNS AWAY FROM to force fit your doctrine. Instead of believing what is plainly written for all to see.

 

[mailmandan]

MMD, the Jews did not cease to exist when they were displaced from Jerusalem and the Holy Land. The new "occupiers" of Jerusalem didn't become Israel or the Church. In the same way, you cannot infer that because Islam has moved into that region of Turkey that it has any relation to the Church of Ephesus

My point was is the church in Ephesus that we read about in Revelation 2 (located in modern day Turkey) still a place of light bearing and witness today?

 

[mailmandan]

Then NONE of the warnings in these passages are of ANY effect. Because:
a) the righteous man was unrighteous anyway, and;
b) the man who committed transgressions was unrighteous anyway

So you ignore the words "Turns away from" in Ezekiel 18. You have to ignore the words TURNS AWAY FROM to force fit your doctrine. Instead of believing what is plainly written for all to see.

I didn't ignore the words 'turn away from' and I also did not ignore "trusts in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS." The righteous man trusted in his own righteousness. What do we read about that in Romans 10:3? 'Turning away from' demonstrates you were never truly committed to what you turned away from. Otherwise, you would not turn away.

In Matthew 9:13, Jesus said - But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.” Who are the "righteous" here in context and were they truly righteous? 11 - And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to His disciples, “Why does your Teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” 12 When Jesus heard that, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

1 John 1
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Now you are getting yourself into a bit of a bind, saying Jesus will pull their light (from the church at Ephesus).

John spoke of individuals in this passage

Does context mean anything to you

 

[Chris1975]

John spoke of individuals in this passage

Does context mean anything to you

My case has been buit over the last few posts. Look there.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

He will pull their light. Now what does that mean to you?

It means he pulls his blessing and his power from that church and that church ceases to be a lamp stand to the community

while there probably are still believers still walking that can be used as a light to their community, the ability of the church to shine is snuffed Out just like it was in isreal

I thought everyone knew this

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What EG probably means is it's no longer necessary for a believer to repent and believe the gospel once they have already chosen to repent and believe the gospel. Believers can still repent about other things, which in this case in Revelation 2, it wan't about repenting and choosing to believe the gospel all over again, but the church in Ephesus as a whole needed to repent (and the new direction of that change of mind) would be getting back to doing the works they previously did and regain the depth of love they had at first. Otherwise, the church in Ephesus can forfeit its place of light bearing and witness. Today, Ephesus (located in modern day Turkey) is vast majority Islam. What does that tell you?

Someone gets it