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WithinReason

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Feb 21, 2020
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Most Christians do not understand that the KJV was never intended to be reguarded as an actual Translation. It is a Paraphase from earlier Translations, with archaic language, and known errors. So the updated the language and tried to correct some of the known errors. The Translation Team admitted all of that in the Original 1611 KJV PREFACE. And you can look it up for yourself.

Statements like this, make it a PRAPHASE and not an actual TRANSLATION:

QUOTE: Truly (good Christian Reader) wee never thought from the beginning, that we should neede to make a new Translation, nor yet to make of a bad one a good one, . . . but to make a good one better, or out of many good ones, one principall good one, not justly to be excepted against; that hath bene our indeavour, that our marke. . . . End Quote.​
Here is the link if you want to read it for yourself, but know, it is Hard to read in that KJV English, can you imagine how antiquated the earlier Versions that predate the 1611 KJV that they Paraphrased, actually had to be.
https://www.ccel.org/bible/kjv/preface/pref1.htm

What gets me, is the KJV ONLY people most have been brainwashed, to believe the 1611 KJV was the ONLY GOD INSPIRED ENGLISH TRANSLATION. I have had more than one them tell me that word for word. It was NEVER a TRANSLATION in the first place, it was a Paraphrase.
The representation that you have given of the King James Translators and the AV1611 (KJB) is an incorrect one, and misapplies their words, and is a terrible aprioric revision of actual history:

"... For when your Highneffe had once out of deepe iudg-ment apprehended, how conuenient it was, That out of the Originall fa-cred tongues, together with comparing of the labours, both in our owne and other forreigne Languages, of many worthy men who went before vs, there fhould be one more exact Transflation of the holy Scriptures into the English tongue ..." [PDF page 6] - https://ia601500.us.archive.org/24/items/1611-the-authorized-king-james-bible/1611 The Authorized King James Bible.pdf

It (AV1611) is indeed a most magnificent and glorious Translation of the preserved words of God (Psalms 12:6-7).

There is even a section called "THE TRANSLATORS TO THE READER" [PDF page 8].

"... The Scriptures then being acknowledged to bee fo full and fo perfect ..." [PDF page 10]​

"... If trueth be to be tried by thefe tongues [Hebrewe Volumes and originall Greeke], then whence fhould a Tranflation be made, but out of them? Thefe tongues therefore, the Scriptures wee fay in thofe tongues, wee fet before vs to transflate, being the tongues wherein God was pleafed to fpeak to his Church by his Prophets anf Apoftles. Neither did we run ouer the worke with the pofting hafte that the Septuagint did, if that be true [it isn't, as there is no "the Septuagint [LXX]", it's a myth] which is repor-ted of them, that they finifhed it in 72. dayes; neither were we barred or hindered from going ouer it againe, hauing once done it, like S. Hierome, if that be true which himfelf reporteth, that he could no fooner write any thing, but prefently it was caught from him, and publifhed, and he could not haue leaue to mend it: neither, to be fhort, were we the firft that fell in hand with transflating the Scripture into Englifh, and confequently deftitute of former helpes, as it is written of Origine ..." [PDF page 17]​
As God's perfect word was translated, it is indeed, without error in its preserved words.
 
May 23, 2020
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Knowing what they were doing and believing it was wrong can be two different things. Much like some here are saying. His point was though, which I thought good, is they are unredeemable because of it.

Pride which I believe was Lucifers ego because of his beauty, filled him to the point of blindness.

My opinion of course.

Your post came across as bitter towards me.
Knowing what you’re doing means by definition you know it is wrong. If you don’t know it’s wrong, you don’t know what you’re doing.

If they didn’t know it was wrong, God is wrong to have punished them. He was proud but not at all blind as to the rebellion he started.

They are unredeemable because God did make provision for their redemption. It’s not because they are ignorant as to right and wrong.

And you are right, there is forgiveness I need to extend to you for recent behavior. It was an unexpected false accusation. But I will work on forgiving you. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
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Knowing what you’re doing means by definition you know it is wrong. If you don’t know it’s wrong, you don’t know what you’re doing.

If they didn’t know it was wrong, God is wrong to have punished them. He was proud but not at all blind as to the rebellion he started.

They are unredeemable because God did make provision for their redemption. It’s not because they are ignorant as to right and wrong.

And you are right, there is forgiveness I need to extend to you for recent behavior. It was an unexpected false accusation. But I will work on forgiving you. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
What exactly was the accusation Dot?
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
929
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Most Christians do not understand that the KJV was never intended to be reguarded as an actual Translation. ...
King James I of England (VI Scotland) didn't ask for a paraphrase, or for paraphrasers, but for translation and translators. Here are the men of the AV1611:

A. The first Westminster Company: Genesis - 2nd Kings

1. Lancelot Andrews, 1555 - 1626: Dr. Lancelot Andrews was Master of Pembroke, 1589; prebendary at St. Paul’s; Dean of Westminster, 1601; Bishop of Chichester, 1605; Bishop of Ely, 1609; member of the Privy Council, 1609 and Bishop of Winchester,1618. Dr. Andrews was also the first person named in the “Order agreed upon for this Translation.”

a. “Once a year, at Easter, he used to pass a month with his parents. During this vacation, he would find a master, from whom he learned some language to which he was a stranger. In this way after a few years, he acquired most of the modern languages of Europe.”29

b. “He was not a man of ‘head knowledge’ only. He was a man of great practical preaching ability and an ardent opponent of Rome. His conspicuous talents soon gained him powerful patrons. Henry, Earl of Huntington, took him into the north of England, where he was the means of converting many Papists by his preaching and disputations.”30

c. “As a preacher, Bishop Andrews was right famous in his day. He was called the ‘star of preachers.’”31

d. “Many hours he spent each day in private and family devotions; and there were some who used to desire that ‘they might end their days in Bishop Andrews’ chapel.’ He was one in whom was proved the truth of Luther’s saying, that ‘to have prayed well, is to have studied well.’”32

e. “This worthy diocesan was much ‘given to hospitality,’ and especially to literary strangers. So bountiful was his cheer, that it used to be said, ‘My Lord of Winchester keeps Christmas all year ‘round.’”33

f. “But we are chiefly concerned to know what were his qualifications as a translator of the Bible. He ever bore the character of a ‘right godly man,’ and a ‘prodigious student.’ One competent judge speaks of him as ‘that great gulf of learning’! It was also said, that ‘the world wanted learning to know how learned this man was.’ A brave, old chronicler remarks, that such was his skill in all languages, especially the Oriental, that had he been present at the confusion of tongues at Babel, he might have served as the Interpreter-General! In his funeral sermon by Dr. Buckridge, Bishop of Rochester, it is said that Dr. Andrews was conversant with fifteen languages.”34

2. John Overall, 1559 - 1619: Dr. Overall was; Regius Professor of Divinity at Cambridge, 1596; Master of Cathrine Hall, 1598; Dean of St. Paul’s, 1601; Bishop of Coventry and Lichfield, 1614; Bishop of Norwich, 1618 and a member of the Court of High Commission.

a. Dr. Overall was present at the hanging of the Jesuit Henry Garnet, mastermind of “the Gunpowder Plot” and tried to lead him to Christ.35 Garnet died unrepentant.

b. Dr. Overall was vital to the translation because of his knowledge of quotations of the early church fathers which helped with the authentication of 1 John 5:7. This verse has a multitude of evidence among church fathers, though its manuscript evidence suffers from the attacks of Alexandria’s philosophers.

3. Hadrian Saravia, 1531 - 1613: Dr. Saravia was; professor of Divinity at Leyden, 1582; prebendary of Glouchester, 1595 and prebendary of Westminster in 1601. Dr. Hadrian Saravia was as evangelistic as he was scholarly.

a. McClure reports: “He was sent by Queen Elizabeth’s council as a sort of missionary to the islands of Guernsey and Jersey, where he was one of the first Protestant ministers; knowing, as he says of himself, in a letter, ‘which were the beginnings, and by what means and occasions the preaching of God’s Word was planted there.’ He labored there in a two-fold capacity, doing the work of an evangelist, and conducting a newly established school, called Elizabeth College.”36

b. In 1611 he published a treatise on Papal primacy against the Jesuit Gretser.

c. He was “educated in all kinds of literature in his younger days, especially several languages.”37

4. Richard Clarke, 15?? - 1634: Dr. Clarke had been fellow of Christ College, Cambridge; and was Vicar of Minster and Monkton, in the Isle of Thanet, at the time of the translation. He was one of the Six Preachers in the Cathedral of Canterbury. A volume of his sermons was published in folio, after his death, in 1637.

5. John Laifield, 15?? - 1617: Dr. John Laifield was; fellow of Trinity. He was the chaplain to the Earl of Cumberland during his voyage to Puerto Rico in 1598 and finally rector of St. Clement Danes’s, London in 1601.

a. Of him it was said: “That being skilled in architecture, his judgment was much relied on for the fabric of the tabernacle and temple.”38

6. Robert Tighe, 15?? - 1620: Dr. Robert Tighe, Archdeacon of Middlesex, and Vicar of All Hallows Barking, was known as “an excellent textuary and profound linguist; and therefore employed in the Translation of the Bible.”39

7. Francis Burleigh, 15?? - 16??: Vicar of Bishop’s Stortford.

8. Geoffry King, 15?? - 16??: Dr. King was fellow of King’s College, Cambridge, and succeeded Mr. Spalding as Regius Professor of Hebrew in that University. Dr. King was an ardent anti-papist.

9. Richard Thompson, 15?? - 1613: He was of Clare Hall, Cambridge.

10. William Bedwell, 1561 - 1632: Dr. William Bedwell was rector of St. Ethelburgh’s, Bishopsgate and later vicar of Tottenham High Cross, near London. Dr. Bedwell was one of the most remarkable scholars on the committee. He was famous as “an eminent Oriental scholar.” His epitaph mentions that he was “for the Eastern tongues, as learned a man as most lived in these modern times.” He was considered the principal Arabic scholar of his time. His intellectual feats were monumental.

a. “He published in quarto an edition of the epistles of St. John in Arabic, with a Latin version, printed at the press of Raphelengius, at Antwerp, in 1612. He also left many Arabic manuscripts to the University of Cambridge, with numerous notes upon them, and a font of types of printing them. His fame for Arabic learning was so great, that when Erpenius, a most renowned Orientalist, resided in England in 1606, he was much indebted to Bedwell for direction in his studies.

To Bedwell, rather than to Erpenius, who commonly enjoys it, belongs the honor of being the first who considerably promoted and revived the study of the Arabic language and literature in Europe. He was also tutor to another Orientalist of renown, Dr. Pococke.”40

b. “Some modern scholars have fancied, that we have an advantage in our times over the translators of King James’ day, by reason of the greater attention which is supposed to be paid at present to what are called the ‘cognate’ and ‘Shemitic’ languages, and especially the Arabic by which much light is thought to be reflected upon Hebrew words and phrases. It is evident, however, that Mr. Bedwell and others, among his fellow-laborers, were thoroughly conversant in this part of the broad field of sacred criticism.”41

c. “Dr. Bedwell also commenced a Persian dictionary, which is among Archbishop Laid’s manuscripts, still preserved in the Bodelian Library at Oxford. In 1615 he published his book, A Discovery of the Impostures of Mahomet and of the Koran. To this was annexed his Arabian Trudgeman.

d. “Dr. Bedwell had a fondness for mathematical studies. He invented a ruler for geometrical purposes, like that we call Gunther’s Scale, which went by the name ‘Bedwell’s Ruler’.

e. “After Bedwell’s death, the voluminous manuscripts of his lexicon were loaned to the University of Cambridge to aid the compilation of Dr. Castell’s colossal work, the Lexicon Heptaglotton.”42
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
929
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Most Christians do not understand that the KJV was never intended to be reguarded as an actual Translation. ...
King James I of England (VI Scotland) didn't ask for a paraphrase, or for paraphrasers, but for translation and translators. Here are the men of the AV1611:

B. The first Cambridge Company: 1st Chronicles - Ecclesiastes

1. Edward Lively, 1545 - 1605: Dr. Lively was Regius Professor of Hebrew at Cambridge, 1575; prebendary at Peterborough, 1602 and rector of Purleigh in 1604.

a. It is said that no man living exceeded his knowledge of the oriental languages. In fact, it was said of him, “one of the best linguists in the world...Much dependence was placed on his surpassing skill in Oriental languages.”43

b. Dr. Lively died in the beginning of May 1605, and it is said that his death was hastened by the great effort he put into the infant translation. In 1588 he published a work entitled, Annotationes in quinque priores ex Minoribus Prophetis, cum Latina eorum interpretatione ad normam Hebraica veritatis; and in 1597, True Chronologie of the Times of the Persian Monarchie, &c.

2. John Richardson, 15?? - 1625: Dr. Richardson was; fellow of Emmanuel College, Cambridge,1585; Regius Professor of Divinity, 1607; Master of Peterhouse, 1609 and then Master of Trinity College.

3. Lawrence Chaderton, 1537 - 1640: Dr. Chaderton was; fellow of Christ’s College, 1568; and afterwards first Master of Emmanuel College from 1584 to 1622.

a. Dr. Chaderton was raised a Roman Catholic and encouraged by his family to become a lawyer. He traveled to London, where he was converted to Christ and joined the Puritan Congregation there.44 He was disinherited due to his conversion to Christ. It is said that,

b. “He made himself familiar with the Latin, Greek, and Hebrew tongues and was thoroughly skilled in them. Moreover he had diligently investigated the numerous writings of the Rabbis, so far as they seemed to promise any aid to the understanding of the Scriptures.”45

c. Like his fellow translators, Dr. Chaderton’s contribution to the cause of Christ was not restricted to the intellectual realm. He was a powerful preacher who lived to the age of one hundred and three. Congregations never tired of hearing the scriptural offerings of this great soldier. A preaching engagement in his later years was described as follows:

1) “Having addressed his audience for two full hours by the glass, he paused and said, ‘I will no longer trespass on your patience.’ And now comes the marvel; for the whole congregation cried out with one consent, ‘For God’s sake, go on!’ He accordingly proceeded much longer, to their great satisfaction and delight.”46

4. Francis Dillingham, 15?? - 16??: Dr. Dillingham was fellow of Christ College; parson of Dean and also of Wilden in Bedfordshire and author of several theological treatises. Dr. Dillingham was so studied in the original languages that he participated in public debate in Greek.47

a. “He collected out of Cardinal Bellarmine’s writings, all the concessions made by the acute author in favor of Protestantism. He published a Manual of Christian Faith, taken from the Fathers, and a variety of treatises on different points belonging to the Romish controversy.”48

5. Thomas Harrison, 1555 - 1631: Dr. Harrison was the Vice-Master of Trinity College. He was a fervent Puritan. Dr. Harrison, it is recorded, was chosen to assist the King James translation due to his knowledge of Greek and Hebrew. In fact, his ability served him well in his duties as Vice-Master of Trinity College in Cambridge.

a. “On account of his exquisite skill in the Hebrew and Greek idioms, he was one of the chief examiners in the University of those who sought to be public professors of these languages.”49

6. Roger Andrews, 15?? - 16??: Dr. Andrews was the brother of Bishop Lancelot Andrews. He was fellow of Pembroke Hall; prebendary, archdeacon and chancellor of Chichester and Southwell, 1606-07; prebendary of Ely and afterwards Doctor of Divinity, and then Master of Jesus College, 1618.

7. Robert Spalding, 15?? - 16??: Dr. Spaulding was fellow of St. John’s College and Regius Professor of Hebrew, in Cambridge, 1605.

8. Andrew Byng, 1574 - 1652: Dr. Byng was fellow of Peterhouse and then Regius Professor of Hebrew, in Cambridge in 1608, after Dr. Spalding. He was also Archdeacon of Norwich.
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
929
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43
Most Christians do not understand that the KJV was never intended to be reguarded as an actual Translation. ...
King James I of England (VI Scotland) didn't ask for a paraphrase, or for paraphrasers, but for translation and translators. Here are the men of the AV1611:

C. The first Oxford Company: Isaiah - Malachi

1. John Harding, 15?? - 16??: John Harding was the Regius Professor of Hebrew in 1591 and President of Magdalen College; and also Rector of Halsey in Oxfordshire. It was said of him, “At the time of his appointment to aid in the translation of the Bible, he had been Royal Professor of Hebrew in the University for thirteen years. His occupancy of that chair, at a time when the study of sacred literature was pursued by thousands with a zeal amounting to a possession, is a fair intimation that Dr. Harding was the manfor the post he occupied.”50

2. John Reynolds (Rainolds), 1549 - 1607: Dr. John Reynolds was fellow of Corpus Christi College, 1566 and later became President of Corpus Christi in 1598; Dean of Lincoln, 1593. He was primarily responsible, in the Conference at Hampton Court, for moving the King for a new Translation. He died May 21, 1607 before the work was completed.

a. Dr. Reynolds had been raised a Roman Catholic. As Chaderton, he too trusted Christ and became a Puritan.

b. “Determined to explore the whole field and make himself master of the subject, he devoted himself to the study of the Scriptures in the original tongues, and read all the Greek and Latin fathers, and all the ancient records of the Church.”51

c. “About the year 1578, John Hart, a popish zealot, challenged all the learned men in the nation to a public debate. At the solicitation of one of Queen Elizabeth’s privy counselors, Mr. Reynolds encountered him. After several combats, the Romish champion owned himself driven from the field.”

d. “At that time, the celebrated Cardinal Bellarmine, the Goliath of the Philistines at Rome, was professor of theology in the English Seminary at that city. As fast as he delivered his popish doctrine, it was taken down in writing, and regularly sent to Dr. Reynolds; who from time to time, publicly confuted it at Oxford. Thus Bellarmine’s books were answered, even before they were printed.”52

e. “The papists started a report, that their famous opposer had recanted his Protestant sentiments. He was much grieved at hearing of the rumor; but too feeble to speak, set his name to the following declaration: ‘These are to testify to all the world, that I die in the possession of that faith which I have taught all my life, both in my preachings and in my writings, with an assured hope of my salvation, only by the merits of Christ my Savior.’”53

3. Thomas Holland, 1539 - 1612: Dr. Holland was then fellow of Balliol College, Oxford; chaplain to the Earl of Leichester in the Netherlands in 1585; Regius Professor of Divinity in Oxford, 1589 and afterwards Rector of Exeter College, 1592. It was said of him that he was, “another Apollos, mighty in the Scriptures.”

Dr. Holland was a fiery Puritan and dedicated anti-Catholic who ended his sermons with the words, “I commend you to the love of God and to the hatred of all popery and superstition.”

4. Richard Kilby, 1560 - 1620: Dr. Richard Kilby became the Rector of Lincoln College in 1590. He was Regius Professor of Divinity, 1610.

a. Dr. Kilby published commentaries on Exodus, chiefly formed from the monuments of the rabbis and Hebrew interpreters.

b. This incident, which occurred shortly after the Authorized Version had been published shows the dangers of changing even one word of God’s Book.

1) “I must here stop my reader, and tell him that this Dr. Kilby was a man so great in learning and wisdom, and so excellent a critic in the Hebrew tongue, that he was made professor of it in this University; and as also so perfect a Grecian, that he was by King James appointed to be one of the translators of the Bible, and that this Doctor and Mr. Sanderson had frequent discourses, and loved as father and son. The Doctor was to ride a journey into Derbyshire, and took Mr. Sanderson to bear him company; and they resting on a Sunday with the Doctor’s friend, and going together to that parish church where they were, found the young preacher to have no more discretion than to waste a great part of the hour allotted for his sermon in exceptions against the late translation of several words, (not expecting such a hearer as Dr. Kilby) and showed three reasons why a particular word should have been otherwise translated. When evening prayer was ended, the preacher was invited to the Doctor’s friend’s house, where after some other confidence, the Doctor told him, he might have preached more useful doctrine, and not filled his auditor’s ears with needless exceptions against the translation; and for that word for which he offered to that poor congregation three reasons why it ought to have been translated as he and others had considered all of them, and found thirteen more considerable reasons why it was translated as now printed.”54

5. Miles Smith, 1554 - 1624: At the time of the translation Dr. Smith was a Canon of Hereford, afterwards Bishop of Gloucester in 1612. Dr. Smith had a great wealth of knowledge concerning the Greek and Latin fathers. He was also expert in Chaldean, Syriac, and Arabic that he could carry on conversations in these difficult languages. It was also said, “Hebrew he had at his finger’s end.”55 He read every book in his own library. Dr. Miles Smith wrote the preface to the King James Bible.

6. Richard Brett, 1567 - 1645: Dr. Brett was fellow of Lincoln College and Rector of Quainton, in Buckinghamshire in 1595. He was a noted scholar of Greek, Hebrew, Latin, Aramaic, Chaldean, Arabic and Ethiopian.

7. Richard Fairclough (Fareclowe), 1578 - 1645: Mr. Fairclough, was of New College; fellow of Corpus Christi, 1602; vicar of Lambeth, All Hallows, Bread Street and Acton.
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
929
136
43
Most Christians do not understand that the KJV was never intended to be reguarded as an actual Translation. ...
King James I of England (VI Scotland) didn't ask for a paraphrase, or for paraphrasers, but for translation and translators. Here are the men of the AV1611:

D. The second Westminster Company: Romans - Jude

1. William Barlow, 15?? - 1613: Dr. Barlow was prebendary of Westminster, 1603 and Dean of Chester at the beginning of the translation; then he later became Bishop of Rochester in 1605 and lastly Bishop of Lincoln in 1608. He was one of the learned Divines selected for the conference at Hampton Court. He is responsible for recording all that transpired during that conference, and for observations connected with it.

2. Ralph Hutchinson (Hutcheson), 1553 - 1606: Dr. Hutchinson was president of St. John’s College, Oxford, 1590.

3. John Spencer, 1559 - 1614: Dr. Spencer was vicar of Alveley, 1589; vicar of Broxborn, 1592; vicar of St. Sepulchre’s, 1599; president of Corpus Christi College, 1607 and finally prebendary of St. Paul’s in 1612.

4. Roger Fenton, 1567 - 1617: Dr. Fenton was fellow of Pembroke Hall, Cambridge; vicar of Chigwell, 1606; prebendary of St. Paul’s, 1609 and finally vicar of St. Stephen’s Walbrook.

5. Michael Rabbett, 15?? -16??: Dr. Rabbett was the Rector of St. Vedast, Forest Lane, London.

6. Thomas Sanderson, 15?? - 16??: It is thought that this is the Sanderson who was Archdeacon of Rochester in 1606.

7. William Dakins, 1567 - 1606: William Dakins was vicar of Trumpington, 1603 and then appointed Professor of Divinity in Gresham College in 1604. He was employed in this work for his great knowledge of the original languages.
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
929
136
43
Most Christians do not understand that the KJV was never intended to be reguarded as an actual Translation. ...
King James I of England (VI Scotland) didn't ask for a paraphrase, or for paraphrasers, but for translation and translators. Here are the men of the AV1611:

E. The second Oxford Company: The Gospels, Acts and Revelation

1. Thomas Ravis, 1560 - 1609: Dr. Ravis was rector of All Hallows, Barking, 1591; canon of Westminster, 1592; Dean of Christ Church, 1596; Bishop of Gloucester, 1605 and lastly bishop of London in 1607. He was famous for his “eminent learning, gravity, and prudence.”

2. George Abbot, 1562 - 1633: Dr. Abbot was Master of University College, Oxford, 1597; Dean of Winchester, 1600; Bishop of Coventry and Lichfield, 1609 and Archbishop of Canterbury in 1612.

3. Richard Eedes, 1555 - 1604: Dr. Eedes was prebendary of Salisbury, 1584; prebendary of Hereford, 1590; queen’s chaplain and Dean of Worcester in 1596. He was greatly admired for his preaching, as well as his discourse which was said to be both excellent and polite. He died in November 1604, soon after the translation was begun.

4. Giles Tomson, 1553 - 1612: Dr. Tomson was fellow of All Souls; queen’s chaplain; rector of Pembroke, Herefordshire; Dean of Windsor, 1602 and Bishop of Gloucester in 1611. Dr. Tomson died in 1612, “to the great grief of all that knew the piety and learning of the man; after he had taken a great deal of pains, at the command of King James, in translating the four Gospels, Acts of the Apostles, and Apocalypse.” He was loved for being “brief, learned and discreet.”

5. Henry Saville, 1549 - 1622: Dr. Saville was fellow of Merton, 1565; was Warden of Merton, 1585; and Provost of Eton in 1596. He was knighted in 1604. He founded the Saville professorships of geometry and astronomy at Oxford.

a. Dr. Saville was known for his Greek and mathematical learning. He was so well known for his education, skill with languages, and knowledge of the Word, that he became Greek and mathematical tutor to Queen Elizabeth during the reign of her father Henry VIII.56

b.“He is chiefly known, however, by being the first to edit the complete works of John Chrysostom, the most famous of the Greek Fathers.”57

6. John Perin (Perne), 15?? - 1615: Fellow of St. John’s College, 1575; Regius Professor of Greek. He resigned this post to work on the Bible translation. Later vicar of Wafting in Sussex and afterwards Canon of Christ Church.

7. Ralph Ravens, 15?? - 1615: Dr. Ravens was vicar of Easton Magna in Essex. Also, there was a person of this name of Queen’s College, M.A. in 1595, and Sub-Dean of Wells in 1607.

8. John Harmar, 15?? - 1613: Dr. Harmar was fellow of New College, 1574; Regius Professor of Greek, 1585 and Warden of Winchester College in 1596. He was “a most noted Latinist, Grecian, and divine.” He translated Beza’s Sermons into English.

9. Leonard Hutten, 1557 - 1632: Dr. Hutten was vicar of Floore, 1601 and prebendary of St. Paul’s, 1609.

10. John Aglionby, 1566 - 1609: Royal chaplain, Principal of St. Edmund Hall, Oxford. It is believed Dr. Aglionby was appointed to the translation committee to replace Dr. Eedes who died soon after the work began in 1604.

11. James Mountague (Montagu), 1568 - 1618: Dr. Mountague was first Master of Puritan Sydney Sussex College, Cambridge, 1595; Dean of Lichfield, 1603; Dean of Worchester, 1604; Bishop of Bath and Wells, 1608; Bishop of Winchester, 1616; edited and translated the works of King James I, 1616. There is some question as to Mountague’s participation.
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
929
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43
Most Christians do not understand that the KJV was never intended to be reguarded as an actual Translation. ...
King James I of England (VI Scotland) didn't ask for a paraphrase, or for paraphrasers, but for translation and translators. Here are the men of the AV1611:

F. The second Cambridge Company: The Apocrypha

1. John Duport, 15?? - 1617: John Duport was rector of Fulham, 1583; precentor of St. Paul’s, 1585; Master of Jesus College, 1590 and prebendary of Ely in 1609.

2. William Branthwaite, 15?? - 1620: Dr. Branthwaite was founding fellow of Emmanuel College, 1584 and Master of Gonvil and Caius College, Cambridge, 1607. An anti-papist, Branthwaite was added to the Translation Committee to replace a suspected Roman Catholic spy who was dismissed.

3. Jeremiah Radcliffe, 15?? - 1612: Jeremiah Radcliffe was fellow of Trinity College, Cambridge; vicar of Evesham, 1588; rector of Orwell, 1590 and Vice-Master of Trinity College in 1597.

4. Samuel Ward, 15?? - 1643: Samuel Ward, another Puritan, was a friend and correspondent of Archbishop Usher. He was fellow of Emmanuel, 1595; Master of Sidney Sussex College, Cambridge, 1610; king’s chaplain, 1611; Archdeacon of Taunton, 1615; prebendary of Wells, 1615; prebendary of York, 1618 and Lady Margaret’s Professor of Divinity, in Cambridge in 1623. He is famous for his diversified learning, yet more especially pertaining to biblical and oriental criticism.

5. Andrew Downes, 1549 - 1628: Dr. Downes was Regius Professor of Greek, Cambridge, 1585 and was sent from that University, with Bois, who had been his scholar, to join a new selection of revisors from the whole number of the Translators. He and Bois worked together with Sir Henry Saville on publishing the works of Chrysostom.

6. John Bois, 1561 - 1644: Dr. Bois was the Greek lecturer at Cambridge, 1584 and prebendary of Ely in 1615. He was considered one of the finest Greek scholars in the kingdom; and was extremely well acquainted with the Hebrew language, of which he had acquired the knowledge at a very early age. Young John had read completely through the Bible by the age of 5 and at 6 years old was writing freely in Hebrew. He was the author of a work, much esteemed by scholars, entitled Veteris Interpretis cum Beza aliisque recentioribus Collatio in Quatuor Evangeliis, it Apostolorum Actis, &c, published after his death, in 1655. These were his Latin notes on the four Gospels and Acts. He wrote notes also upon Chrysostom, which Sir Henry Saville much esteemed, and used, in his edition of the works of that Father. Bois and his critical labors are often mentioned in Archbishop Usher’s Letters. He was said to be second to none in his knowledge of the Greek language.

7. Robert Ward, 15?? - 16??: He was fellow of King’s College, Cambridge; prebendary of Chichester, and Rector of Bishop’s Waltham in Hampshire.
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
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Most Christians do not understand that the KJV was never intended to be reguarded as an actual Translation. ...
King James I of England (VI Scotland) didn't ask for a paraphrase, or for paraphrasers, but for translation and translators. Here are just some of the excellent rules the Translators followed:

11. When any Place of special Obscurity is doubted of, Letters to be directed by Authority, to send to any Learned Man in the Land, for his Judgement of such a Place.

12. Letters to be sent from every Bishop to the rest of his Clergy, admonishing them of this Translation in hand; and to move and charge as many skilful in the Tongues; and having taken pains in that kind, to send his particular Observations to the Company, either at Westminster, Cambridge, or Oxford.

13. The Directors in each Company, to be the Deans of Westminster, and Chester for that Place; and the King’s Professors in the Hebrew or Greek in either University.

15. Besides the said Directors before mentioned, three or four of the most Ancient and Grave Divines, in either of the Universities, not employed in Translating, to be assigned by the vice-Chancellor, upon Conference with the rest of the Heads, to be Overseers of the Translations as well Hebrew as Greek, for the better observation of the 4th Rule above specified.
 
Apr 5, 2020
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Knowing what they were doing and believing it was wrong can be two different things. Much like some here are saying. His point was though, which I thought good, is they are unredeemable because of it.

Another viewpoint is:
When we read the "Reason" Peter gives in his Epistle, for the Fallen Angels who are being held in complete darkness and will never be released but go straight to the Lake of Fire come Judgement, these Angels knew God made a rule to leave His human Creation alone. But some still went ahead and made them their wives and produced Nephilim.

When we think about this in its entirety from pieces we can put together. We can see God gives a Direct Command to not be intimate with His human Creation. These Angels still disobeyed God and made them their wives. And furthered that by creating Demonic offspring called Nephilim. As a result, God bans these Fallen Angels to complete darkness until Judgement where they will burn forever. Plus, God killed off the Nephilim (their offspring).

We can clearly see where the Angels were given a Direct Command, they knew what they were doing by choosing to disobey, and now they are locked away and their children have been dismantled by God.

If we take anything from this, we can take that Angels have "Free Will" like us. They know what they are doing. And they pay just like humans will pay Eternally.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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The Pharisees issue was with hypocrisy and iniquity.

I’m exhorting to truth and righteousness.

I don’t see the connection.

Wasn’t Paul a Pharisee?

I have the problem Paul had, gaining enemies by preaching the truth.
Look up the word lead......you are as dense as lead if you think for one second you can compare yourself to Paul....as a matter of fact....look up antihesis.....because what you spew is the anthesis of what Paul taught.....!!
 
Dec 12, 2013
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It’s interesting that your side brings up Cain a lot. Notice what God said to Cain:

Genesis 4:7
[7] If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

OSAS gives occasion for the sin that lies at the door to come in without restraint.
Another lie peddled by a Pharisee in the above post and you teach exactly the same thing Cain peddled......
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Try as you may...the word FOR is not found in that verse!!
Amen! Paul clearly stated in Philippians 2:12 that we work OUT our salvation and NOT work FOR our salvation. Salvation by works is not being taught here. The Greek verb rendered "work out" means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing the process of "ongoing sanctification." It's typical for works-salvationists to confuse justification with ongoing sanctification. In verse 13, Paul goes on to say - "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure."

When we "work out" at the gym, we exercise to develop our body that we already have and not in order to get a body. Farmers work out the land, not in order to get the land, but to develop the land they already have.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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i think that the 'broad' path is one of a self-determined, self-willed righteousness of works.
this is what all religions teach, except for the Way we heard through the gospel -- and a salvation earned by the desire and effort of man by the merit of his outward behavior is diametrically opposed to the hope we have in the grace of God shown to us through His sacrifice on the cross and rising from the grave.


by far the majority of all beliefs among all peoples rests on man making his way to heaven via various strictures.
but only one, narrow, unbelievable word said, it is God reaching down to bring you up to Him; take the lowest seat, and believe.
Amen! Well said. I find it interesting that ALL false religions and cults (who label themselves as Christian) and teach salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS, which has always been a red flag for me.
 
Feb 29, 2020
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You can't properly obey the word when you misinterpret the word
Eve would have been better off in obeying God’s commandment instead of letting an interpreter deceive her.

So you need the corruptible wisdom of men to interpret the incorruptible word of God? No thanks!

And this way of thinking gives opportunity for the doctrines of devils to creep in with the cover or interpretation.

This is why so much of Christianity today are in the condition they are in; carrying a book that is hardly obeyed.

God’s words are clear. If you have basic reading and comprehension skills you need nothing more than an appetite for the word. God says to eat what I give you (Ezekiel 2:8). I wouldn’t examine the food God gives, just open your mouth and eat. Man lives by every word of God.

Anything beyond a good dictionary is probably over doing it, which leads to over studying which leads to excess that can destroy (Ecclesiastes 7:16).

I also do not get the emphasis on original languages. Exercise your faith on the transition you have and trust it. It has been translated by men equipped with the knowledge and wisdom for that work. Stop trying to pry into things above you (Psalm 131:1). I would also advise some to not dismiss KJV. It was translated before much of the distracting devices we have today, a time when men could truly be isolated from the world (no televisions, no Hollywood, no smart phones, no internet, etc.). In my opinion, in one way or another, modern translations have been weakened by modern thinkers.

1 Peter 1:23
[23] Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Corinthians 2:4-5
[4] And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: [5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,043
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Eve would have been better off in obeying God’s commandment instead of letting an interpreter deceive her.

So you need the corruptible wisdom of men to interpret the incorruptible word of God? No thanks!

And this way of thinking gives opportunity for the doctrines of devils to creep in with the cover or interpretation.

This is why so much of Christianity today are in the condition they are in; carrying a book that is hardly obeyed.

God’s words are clear. If you have basic reading and comprehension skills you need nothing more than an appetite for the word. God says to eat what I give you (Ezekiel 2:8). I wouldn’t examine the food God gives, just open your mouth and eat. Man lives by every word of God.

Anything beyond a good dictionary is probably over doing it, which leads to over studying which leads to excess that can destroy (Ecclesiastes 7:16).

I also do not get the emphasis on original languages. Exercise your faith on the transition you have and trust it. It has been translated by men equipped with the knowledge and wisdom for that work. Stop trying to pry into things above you (Psalm 131:1). I would also advise some to not dismiss KJV. It was translated before much of the distracting devices we have today, a time when men could truly be isolated from the world (no televisions, no Hollywood, no smart phones, no internet, etc.). In my opinion, in one way or another, modern translations have been weakened by modern thinkers.

1 Peter 1:23
[23] Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Corinthians 2:4-5
[4] And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: [5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
All I hear from you is sinless perfection, type 2 works salvation and anti-OSAS rhetoric. I'm sorry, but it's hard for me to take anything you have to say seriously.