Obedience, A Necessary Requirement For Salvation?
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W
so, faith = pistis = persuaded-ness... namely, being persuaded that Jesus = Christ, THE Messiah. And so, "whatsoever is not of being persuaded [that Jesus = Messiah] is sin" (Rom 14).
anybody honestly persuaded, to the conviction, that Jesus = Christ, whom they believe is Lord, would therefore obey Jesus' "commandments" or "orders" in the NT.
anybody honestly persuaded, to the conviction, that Jesus = Christ, whom they believe is Lord, would therefore obey Jesus' "commandments" or "orders" in the NT.
Matt 21 -- The Parable of the Two Sons
“What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work today in the vineyard.’
“‘I will not,’ he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.
“Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but he did not go.
“Which of the two did what his father wanted?”
“The first,” they answered.
“What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work today in the vineyard.’
“‘I will not,’ he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.
“Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but he did not go.
“Which of the two did what his father wanted?”
“The first,” they answered.
W
in the original Greek, faith = pistis = "being persuaded", believing something to be credible & true
what you are describing could be called "blind belief", a "leap of faith". However, the original Greek word conveys no such sense of "leaping beyond the bounds of knowledge". The OT Prophesied a Messiah; Jesus seemed to fit the description; so one becomes pistis'ed that Jesus = Christ.
what you are describing could be called "blind belief", a "leap of faith". However, the original Greek word conveys no such sense of "leaping beyond the bounds of knowledge". The OT Prophesied a Messiah; Jesus seemed to fit the description; so one becomes pistis'ed that Jesus = Christ.
These folks always use diversion as a means to avoid the discussing various issues that are raised.
As times goes on it gets clearer and clearer to me in particular what they avoid and thus it gets easier and easier to expose the false gospel which teaches that one can be in manifest rebellion whilst positionally saved (saved IN sin).
Skinski in Blue
As times goes on it gets clearer and clearer to me in particular what they avoid and thus it gets easier and easier to expose the false gospel which teaches that one can be in manifest rebellion whilst positionally saved (saved IN sin).
Skinski in Blue
Does Romans 5 really teach that? Are we BORN already condemned and in a state of slavery to sin?
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Sin clearly entered the world through Adam and then death was due to this sin. Then it says that death passed upon all men in that all have sinned.
That verse does not say that sin was passed to all men does it? It says "death was passed upon all men in that all have sinned."
In other words the same death that Adam experienced due to him sinning is the same death we experience due to us sinning. Paul elaborates on this in Romans 7...
Sin only has the power to kill due to the law or a commandment...
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. In other words Paul is saying is is dead without the knowledge to do right (the commandment) and thus with this knowledge being made known to him he was drawn to do evil via the temptation of concupiscence (lusts of the flesh).
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Instruction from God is for our benefit but when violated it brings death. Adam was instructed to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and that if he disobeyed God in this instruction he would die in that day.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Adam could not "sin unto death" apart from having received the commandment. Without the law sin was dead. When the commandment came all manner of concupiscence was wrought to which they willfully yielded and thus were slain.
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
See how it works?
It is the soul that sins that shall die. Iniquity is not passed down from father to son.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Sin is a choice not a genetic disease.
The notion that Rom 5:12 is teaching that sin is some kind of malady associated with our meat and bones which is passed down from father to son is error. That error was introduced into Christian orthodoxy by Augustine of Hippo around the Fourth Century A.D.
Augustine used the Latin Vulgate in the formulation of this doctrine by appealing to two main sections of scripture, Rom 5:12 and Heb 7:9-10.
Latin Vulgate
Rom 5:12 Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world and by sin death: and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.
The Latin Vulgate renders the text as "in quo" which translates to "in whom."
Augustine also used these verses...
Heb 7:9 And (as it may be said) even Levi who received tithes paid tithes in Abraham:
Heb 7:10 For he was yet in the loins of his father when Melchisedech met him.
...thus combining it with Rom 5:12 he was able to proof text that all mankind was actually in the loins of Adam when Adam sinned and thus all Adam's progeny shared in his guilt as well as his spiritual corruption. All it takes is a little leaven to leaven a whole lump. This one little error in the Latin Vulgate sits at the foundation of a monolithic deception.
Look at the difference between the two translations...
Latin Vulgate
Rom 5:12 Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world and by sin death: and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.
KJV
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
AMP
Rom 5:12 Therefore, as sin came into the world through one man, and death as the result of sin, so death spread to all men, [[a]no one being able to stop it or to escape its power] because all men sinned.
NIV
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
The "all sinned IN Adam" is exclusive to the Latin Vulgate. The Greek does not support that translation.
Augustine was schooled in Neopatonism and Manichaean philosophy before his conversion to Catholicism. The pagan philosophies he was schooled in taught dualism. Basically it was taught that matter was base and that the spirit was pure. The spirit of man was trapped in the base of matter and thus was corrupted. Freedom from this state of corruption was only through the spirit being released from matter at death. Thus life in this world consisted of a battle between the flesh and the spirit whereby the flesh would always ultimately overcome the spirit, hence evil in the world.
Thus Augustine viewed sin as a substance of the flesh inherited from Adam and he saw "concupiscence" (natural passions and desires, esp. sexual) as proof of this inherited sin.
It's a deception. Sin is a choice. We are not born sinful. We are not born guilty.
We are born neutral in subjection to the natural passions and desires of the flesh. We are born in a state of ignorance and innocence. We are born upright in the sense that we have not rebelled against God as of yet. We are also born into a wicked world.
Condemnation only occurs when we CHOOSE to suppress the light that lights all men (Joh 1:9) and thus KNOWINGLY do evil. Without having understood the full ramifications of sin or what sin actually is (how it really it is utterly evil) we have all willfully chosen to transgress against the knowledge of God given us.
God in His mercy offers us a reprieve if we will repent of our rebellion and abide in His will.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Sin clearly entered the world through Adam and then death was due to this sin. Then it says that death passed upon all men in that all have sinned.
That verse does not say that sin was passed to all men does it? It says "death was passed upon all men in that all have sinned."
In other words the same death that Adam experienced due to him sinning is the same death we experience due to us sinning. Paul elaborates on this in Romans 7...
Sin only has the power to kill due to the law or a commandment...
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. In other words Paul is saying is is dead without the knowledge to do right (the commandment) and thus with this knowledge being made known to him he was drawn to do evil via the temptation of concupiscence (lusts of the flesh).
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Instruction from God is for our benefit but when violated it brings death. Adam was instructed to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and that if he disobeyed God in this instruction he would die in that day.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Adam could not "sin unto death" apart from having received the commandment. Without the law sin was dead. When the commandment came all manner of concupiscence was wrought to which they willfully yielded and thus were slain.
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
See how it works?
It is the soul that sins that shall die. Iniquity is not passed down from father to son.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Sin is a choice not a genetic disease.
The notion that Rom 5:12 is teaching that sin is some kind of malady associated with our meat and bones which is passed down from father to son is error. That error was introduced into Christian orthodoxy by Augustine of Hippo around the Fourth Century A.D.
Augustine used the Latin Vulgate in the formulation of this doctrine by appealing to two main sections of scripture, Rom 5:12 and Heb 7:9-10.
Latin Vulgate
Rom 5:12 Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world and by sin death: and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.
The Latin Vulgate renders the text as "in quo" which translates to "in whom."
Augustine also used these verses...
Heb 7:9 And (as it may be said) even Levi who received tithes paid tithes in Abraham:
Heb 7:10 For he was yet in the loins of his father when Melchisedech met him.
...thus combining it with Rom 5:12 he was able to proof text that all mankind was actually in the loins of Adam when Adam sinned and thus all Adam's progeny shared in his guilt as well as his spiritual corruption. All it takes is a little leaven to leaven a whole lump. This one little error in the Latin Vulgate sits at the foundation of a monolithic deception.
Look at the difference between the two translations...
Latin Vulgate
Rom 5:12 Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world and by sin death: and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.
KJV
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
AMP
Rom 5:12 Therefore, as sin came into the world through one man, and death as the result of sin, so death spread to all men, [[a]no one being able to stop it or to escape its power] because all men sinned.
NIV
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
The "all sinned IN Adam" is exclusive to the Latin Vulgate. The Greek does not support that translation.
Augustine was schooled in Neopatonism and Manichaean philosophy before his conversion to Catholicism. The pagan philosophies he was schooled in taught dualism. Basically it was taught that matter was base and that the spirit was pure. The spirit of man was trapped in the base of matter and thus was corrupted. Freedom from this state of corruption was only through the spirit being released from matter at death. Thus life in this world consisted of a battle between the flesh and the spirit whereby the flesh would always ultimately overcome the spirit, hence evil in the world.
Thus Augustine viewed sin as a substance of the flesh inherited from Adam and he saw "concupiscence" (natural passions and desires, esp. sexual) as proof of this inherited sin.
It's a deception. Sin is a choice. We are not born sinful. We are not born guilty.
We are born neutral in subjection to the natural passions and desires of the flesh. We are born in a state of ignorance and innocence. We are born upright in the sense that we have not rebelled against God as of yet. We are also born into a wicked world.
Condemnation only occurs when we CHOOSE to suppress the light that lights all men (Joh 1:9) and thus KNOWINGLY do evil. Without having understood the full ramifications of sin or what sin actually is (how it really it is utterly evil) we have all willfully chosen to transgress against the knowledge of God given us.
God in His mercy offers us a reprieve if we will repent of our rebellion and abide in His will.
Very cogent comment here. Just obeying will not save one. Obedience cannot EARN eternal life for one, but obedience is a condition that must be met to receive the gift of eternal life. A little story from my past...
When I was in my early teens, my dad promised me a gold pocket watch that belonged to my grandfather if I would not smoke a cigarette before age 21.
Now for some questions, did not smoking earn the watch? Nope, my grandfather worked in a cement plant to earn the money to buy the watch. Did I deserve the watch for not smoking. Nope, lots of people achieve the age of 21 without smoking, do they automatically receive a gold pocket watch? Nope. What was the not smoking clause then? It was simply a condition that if met, I would receive the watch.
Does keeping the Law earn salvation? Nope. Does one deserve salvation for keeping the Law? Nope. Is it a condition for eternal life. Yes, God who is the author and giver of eternal life has every right to levy conditions on that marvelous gift. Does He give unrepentant child molesters eternal life? Pretty sure He doesn't. How about unrepentant thieves? Here is a dead sure answer for that...
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
In fact those wh obreak His Commandments with disdain will not inherit eternal life...
Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
When I was in my early teens, my dad promised me a gold pocket watch that belonged to my grandfather if I would not smoke a cigarette before age 21.
Now for some questions, did not smoking earn the watch? Nope, my grandfather worked in a cement plant to earn the money to buy the watch. Did I deserve the watch for not smoking. Nope, lots of people achieve the age of 21 without smoking, do they automatically receive a gold pocket watch? Nope. What was the not smoking clause then? It was simply a condition that if met, I would receive the watch.
Does keeping the Law earn salvation? Nope. Does one deserve salvation for keeping the Law? Nope. Is it a condition for eternal life. Yes, God who is the author and giver of eternal life has every right to levy conditions on that marvelous gift. Does He give unrepentant child molesters eternal life? Pretty sure He doesn't. How about unrepentant thieves? Here is a dead sure answer for that...
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
In fact those wh obreak His Commandments with disdain will not inherit eternal life...
Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Skinski,
You may want to rethink what the doctrine of original sin does say
Theopedia
Original sin
Original sin is the doctrine which holds that human nature has been morally and ethically corrupted due to the disobedience of mankind's first parents to the revealed will of God. In the Bible, the first human transgression of God's command is described as the sin of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden resulting in what theology calls the Fall of mankind. The doctrine of original sin holds that every person born into the world is tainted by the Fall such that all of humanity is ethically debilitated, and people are powerless to rehabilitate themselves, unless rescued by God.
There are wide-ranging disagreements among Christian groups as to the exact understanding of this doctrine, with some so-called Christian groups denying it altogether. Eastern Orthodoxy, Judaism, and Islam acknowledge that the introduction of sin into the human race affected the subsequent environment for mankind, but deny any inherited guilt or necessary corruption of man's nature.
Not all believe that it is sin itself that is passed down. You need to get clarification and a definition on some of these things.
You may want to rethink what the doctrine of original sin does say
Theopedia
Original sin
Original sin is the doctrine which holds that human nature has been morally and ethically corrupted due to the disobedience of mankind's first parents to the revealed will of God. In the Bible, the first human transgression of God's command is described as the sin of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden resulting in what theology calls the Fall of mankind. The doctrine of original sin holds that every person born into the world is tainted by the Fall such that all of humanity is ethically debilitated, and people are powerless to rehabilitate themselves, unless rescued by God.
There are wide-ranging disagreements among Christian groups as to the exact understanding of this doctrine, with some so-called Christian groups denying it altogether. Eastern Orthodoxy, Judaism, and Islam acknowledge that the introduction of sin into the human race affected the subsequent environment for mankind, but deny any inherited guilt or necessary corruption of man's nature.
Not all believe that it is sin itself that is passed down. You need to get clarification and a definition on some of these things.
The doctrine of original sin is false...
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Your sin is your sin and my sin is my sin and neither of us bear Adam's sin...
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
They sinned their own sins not Adam's.
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Your sin is your sin and my sin is my sin and neither of us bear Adam's sin...
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
They sinned their own sins not Adam's.
Yes how it is defined does vary. How the Reformers teach it is different to how the Catholics teach. How the Wesleyians teach it is different yet again. I often approach it from the Reformed perspective because it is the most common view, especially on a forums such as this.
The common ground though is that despite all the differences the teaching holds it common to teach that man is "disabled from true obedience to God" and thus must be "positionally saved" whilst in a "state of rebellion." Thus salvation is perceived as an abstract book-keeping entry apart from the actual condition of the heart. Whereby a convert under this theology can still "work iniquity" whilst remaining in a justified state.
The Catholic teach salvation within the framework of the sacraments of the institutional church. The Arminian side of the church teahc salvation within the framework of a "second act of grace" whereby in the meantime the "stain of iniquity" remains within. The Reformers teach that the corruption of nature remains in those who are regenerated and thus one can engage in evil whilst remaining saved in position.
All variants of the doctrine redefine the nature of man and redefine the Gospel message to teach a salvation devoid of genuine heart purity.
Basically Original Sin forces one into a denial of genuine heart purity being a result of a genuine salvation experience.
The common ground though is that despite all the differences the teaching holds it common to teach that man is "disabled from true obedience to God" and thus must be "positionally saved" whilst in a "state of rebellion." Thus salvation is perceived as an abstract book-keeping entry apart from the actual condition of the heart. Whereby a convert under this theology can still "work iniquity" whilst remaining in a justified state.
The Catholic teach salvation within the framework of the sacraments of the institutional church. The Arminian side of the church teahc salvation within the framework of a "second act of grace" whereby in the meantime the "stain of iniquity" remains within. The Reformers teach that the corruption of nature remains in those who are regenerated and thus one can engage in evil whilst remaining saved in position.
All variants of the doctrine redefine the nature of man and redefine the Gospel message to teach a salvation devoid of genuine heart purity.
Basically Original Sin forces one into a denial of genuine heart purity being a result of a genuine salvation experience.
To make it even plainer.
A subscription to Original Sin as being the reason why people engage in sin is the very reason that the cessation of rebellion to God is thrown out the window.
Due to this you have pastors assuring people who are addicted to pornography (as an example) that they are POSITIONALLY saved and that them overcoming pornography addiction is but part of their sanctification.
Thus these people are being assured that they CAN SIN and not surely die because salvation is purely positional.
Heart purity has been excised from salvation in most teaching today.
Any individual who has had their heart purified by faith and been cleansed of sin by the blood of Christ will not be engaged in immorality. The doctrine of Christ produces godly people, not defiled sinners.
A subscription to Original Sin as being the reason why people engage in sin is the very reason that the cessation of rebellion to God is thrown out the window.
Due to this you have pastors assuring people who are addicted to pornography (as an example) that they are POSITIONALLY saved and that them overcoming pornography addiction is but part of their sanctification.
Thus these people are being assured that they CAN SIN and not surely die because salvation is purely positional.
Heart purity has been excised from salvation in most teaching today.
Any individual who has had their heart purified by faith and been cleansed of sin by the blood of Christ will not be engaged in immorality. The doctrine of Christ produces godly people, not defiled sinners.
That's not always true that those who do believe it,who have truly repented. The proof in they way they live their life. I think both of us can agree there are an awful of people who the evidence of a changed heart and mind is just NOT THERE. Surprise on this I do agree with you that there are those who do use grace as a license to sin. How many people in the US are truly born again? How come in so many ways so called Christians can answer the same questions on morals and it's the same AS NON Christians. Why is our country in the shape it is in if all those so called Christians are truly Christians? It shouldn't be that way. There is ONE REALLY BIG PROBLEM THERE. But to say ALL do is wrong.
J
sometimes i really think we just don't keep it simple enough. he said, she said, they say.........this church teaches this, that church teaches that, my doctrine your doctrine their doctrine.....here a little there a little line upon line.......did you ever see a child that didn't need raised? did you ever see a child that had to be taught rebellion? put a two year old in a grown man's body and you have a criminal......what children are more disobedient than two year olds? God said to mankind in the garden do not eat it and do not touch it and like a couple of two year olds they disobeyed. but they weren't two year olds. they were grown. they had been taught and they knew better.
It sounds like young teens saying "But Daddy, you said ------" when they want something just one way.
God explains grace, faith, obedience, salvation, a bible of scripture explaining. Everything in it is the truth. If you take out all the scriptures on one thing and say that is the way it is, it is the only way it explains everything, then you are going to get it wrong. You use truth to arrive at something that isn't truth.
Obedience is truth. You can be obedient without salvation because you ignore other truths. Salvation through grace is truth, it is even the first most important truth. Put in deliberate rebellion and it cancels out salvation and grace.
God explains grace, faith, obedience, salvation, a bible of scripture explaining. Everything in it is the truth. If you take out all the scriptures on one thing and say that is the way it is, it is the only way it explains everything, then you are going to get it wrong. You use truth to arrive at something that isn't truth.
Obedience is truth. You can be obedient without salvation because you ignore other truths. Salvation through grace is truth, it is even the first most important truth. Put in deliberate rebellion and it cancels out salvation and grace.
I have never said "all."
I have said that the DOCTRINE being promoted in the vast majority of church congregations is FALSE.
This has been clearly evidenced to me by my dialogue with multitudes of pastors who practically all believe that salvation is purely forensic and that one can actively engage in rebellion whilst remaining justified.
Of course they won't put it that way as that is just too obvious a deception. What they will say is that "you shouldn't sin" but we all do ala 1Joh 1:8. When I ask them about child molestation or murder in that "does such a sin have to cease BEFORE God grants forgiveness" they either shutdown and avoid answering the question or they say "no it does not have to stop." They truly believe that sin is rooted in the birth nature and not the choice, thus it takes an act of God (either prevenient grace or irresistible grace) to offset the inability from birth. Hence repentance is not the forsaking of rebellion, nor is repentance connected with the crucifixion of the flesh.
They teach that the cessation of rebellion to God and the crucifixion of the flesh is a GRADUAL PROCESS. It is what they teach, I have an email box full of exchanges with these people.
I have only about 4 or 5 exceptions and only about 3 of these clearly stated the sin must stop (i remember 2 specifically but I think there was 1 other). I didn't engage deeply will all these exception so there may be some muddy water there too.
Thus out of more than 200 inquiries (1000's if you count others who have sent out similar emails) to various pastors and ministries I found that pretty much 99% all base salvation on the notion of an abstract legal exchange (Penal Substitution) and it is within this framework they present the Gospel.
This is why if you go in practically any church building on Sunday (no matter the denomination) they preach MORAL LESSONS but do not preach HEART PURITY. They do not warn the people that those who name the name of Christ MUST depart from iniquity. They preach a lukewarm double-minded message which "sounds" true for it bears the language of the Bible but its really just a perversion of Paul's teaching which is in complete contradiction with the teachings of Jesus Christ.
The cross has been perverted into a judicial legal exchange whereby one is FORENSICALLY justified whilst one remains inwardly wicked walking in the lusts of the flesh.
The aspect of "dying with Christ" whereby we share in his sufferings and thus cease walking in the lusts of the flesh has been totally ripped out of the Gospel. These deceivers simply do not understand that the blood of Christ purges the conscience of sin and that by yielding ourselves to God our hearts are made PURE.
A pure heart does not work iniquity.
I do not say one cannot some to an authentic salvation experience in the system. I say it is highly unlikely and if such a thing does happen it happens in spite of the false message being preached.
Test it for your self. Pick a small town in the USA. Google all the churches. Then email each pastor and ask them if a child molester has to stop molesting children BEFORE God will forgive them. You'll be shocked at the answers you will receive.
I have said that the DOCTRINE being promoted in the vast majority of church congregations is FALSE.
This has been clearly evidenced to me by my dialogue with multitudes of pastors who practically all believe that salvation is purely forensic and that one can actively engage in rebellion whilst remaining justified.
Of course they won't put it that way as that is just too obvious a deception. What they will say is that "you shouldn't sin" but we all do ala 1Joh 1:8. When I ask them about child molestation or murder in that "does such a sin have to cease BEFORE God grants forgiveness" they either shutdown and avoid answering the question or they say "no it does not have to stop." They truly believe that sin is rooted in the birth nature and not the choice, thus it takes an act of God (either prevenient grace or irresistible grace) to offset the inability from birth. Hence repentance is not the forsaking of rebellion, nor is repentance connected with the crucifixion of the flesh.
They teach that the cessation of rebellion to God and the crucifixion of the flesh is a GRADUAL PROCESS. It is what they teach, I have an email box full of exchanges with these people.
I have only about 4 or 5 exceptions and only about 3 of these clearly stated the sin must stop (i remember 2 specifically but I think there was 1 other). I didn't engage deeply will all these exception so there may be some muddy water there too.
Thus out of more than 200 inquiries (1000's if you count others who have sent out similar emails) to various pastors and ministries I found that pretty much 99% all base salvation on the notion of an abstract legal exchange (Penal Substitution) and it is within this framework they present the Gospel.
This is why if you go in practically any church building on Sunday (no matter the denomination) they preach MORAL LESSONS but do not preach HEART PURITY. They do not warn the people that those who name the name of Christ MUST depart from iniquity. They preach a lukewarm double-minded message which "sounds" true for it bears the language of the Bible but its really just a perversion of Paul's teaching which is in complete contradiction with the teachings of Jesus Christ.
The cross has been perverted into a judicial legal exchange whereby one is FORENSICALLY justified whilst one remains inwardly wicked walking in the lusts of the flesh.
The aspect of "dying with Christ" whereby we share in his sufferings and thus cease walking in the lusts of the flesh has been totally ripped out of the Gospel. These deceivers simply do not understand that the blood of Christ purges the conscience of sin and that by yielding ourselves to God our hearts are made PURE.
A pure heart does not work iniquity.
I do not say one cannot some to an authentic salvation experience in the system. I say it is highly unlikely and if such a thing does happen it happens in spite of the false message being preached.
Test it for your self. Pick a small town in the USA. Google all the churches. Then email each pastor and ask them if a child molester has to stop molesting children BEFORE God will forgive them. You'll be shocked at the answers you will receive.
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Skinski,
I do need to apologize to you. When I read your posts I saw it as you saying all. That is my fault. I still do disagree that penal substitution is part of it. Because for me it makes what Jesus did on the cross for me so much more real,I don't deserve it,I had nothing that I can give Him other then a broken wreck of a human being and He choose me. I can not even begin to understand why Jesus did what He did,and He did it for me? Talk about the ultimate mind blowing concept to grasp.
I am sorry Skinski. Please forgive me.
I do need to apologize to you. When I read your posts I saw it as you saying all. That is my fault. I still do disagree that penal substitution is part of it. Because for me it makes what Jesus did on the cross for me so much more real,I don't deserve it,I had nothing that I can give Him other then a broken wreck of a human being and He choose me. I can not even begin to understand why Jesus did what He did,and He did it for me? Talk about the ultimate mind blowing concept to grasp.
I am sorry Skinski. Please forgive me.