Often misunderstood part of the Bible (1 John 1:8-19)

[dcontroversal]

If I could just attain the sinless perfection they have then God will love me and accept me. Amen... I'm so free in Christ!

It is quite simple....if you believe in eternal security and sin once you are lost and on your way to hell...(in their view)

Yet if you believe you can lose your salvation, one sin doesn't make you lost and they have never sinned enough to lose their salvation.......such hypocrisy

And of course you don't have to work to keep it or gain it back...salvation LITE theology......kind of like NEW Lightism....heresy!

 

[Jason0047]

So when Noah got drunk his daughters raped him, if he would have had a heart attach and died he would have went to hell?

You mean Lot and not Noah. As for creating a hypothetical situation that does not exist: Well, that is not what happened. Lot did not die when he got drunk. So you are forcing a scenario that did not actually happen to prove a belief that that the Bible does not teach. Let's stick to what the Bible actually says and not hypotheical scenarios of what certain people in the Bible might have done. God knew Lot was a righteous man. Yes, he was not perfect. So he obviously repented of his sins (By what we know from what the rest of Scripture says on the matter).

But yes, if a person sins and then they die, they are not saved. It's pretty basic and simple. A person's last act will reflect the type of life that they lived. For God is the giver and taker of life.

 

[dcontroversal]

You mean Lot and not Noah. As for creating a hypothetical situation that does not exist: Well, that is not what happened. Lot did not die when he got drunk. So you are forcing a scenario that did not actually happen to prove a belief that that the Bible does not teach. Let's stick to what the Bible actually says and not hypotheical scenarios of what certain people in the Bible might have done. God knew Lot was a righteous man. Yes, he was not perfect. So he obviously repented of his sin (By what we know from what the rest of Scripture says on the matter).

Show one verse that states LOT repented of anything...The NT says clearly that HIS SOUL wax VEXED with the filthy conversation of the wicked in seeing and hearing the things he seen and heard......HE OFFERED HIS VIRGIN DAUGHTERS to SODOMITES......yeah real righteous MAN for sure!...........

And don't put words in my mouth...I know Lot was spared and did not say he wasn't saved.....he sure didn't want to leave the city though did he!

 

[Jason0047]

Show one verse that states LOT repented of anything...The NT says clearly that HIS SOUL wax VEXED with the filthy conversation of the wicked in seeing and hearing the things he seen and heard......HE OFFERED HIS VIRGIN DAUGHTERS to SODOMITES......yeah real righteous MAN for sure!...........

That's like saying, show me a verse where people went to the bathroom to prove they want to the bathroom. We know thru out the whole of Scripture that men have always repented of their sin in order to get right with God. How can you like not know that? It's a theme thru out the entire Bible.

 

[KJV1611]

You mean Lot and not Noah. As for creating a hypothetical situation that does not exist: Well, that is not what happened. Lot did not die when he got drunk. So you are forcing a scenario that did not actually happen to prove a belief that that the Bible does not teach. Let's stick to what the Bible actually says and not hypotheical scenarios of what certain people in the Bible might have done. God knew Lot was a righteous man. Yes, he was not perfect. So he obviously repented of his sins (By what we know from what the rest of Scripture says on the matter).

But yes, if a person sins and then they die, they are not saved. It's pretty basic and simple. A person's last act will reflect the type of life that they lived. For God is the giver and taker of life.

Yes, my bad... I screwed that all up. So back to my first example. If just before I died, I cried out Lord forgive me for drinking too much alcohol then I would go to heaven?

 

[dcontroversal]

That's like saying, show me a verse where people went to the bathroom to prove they want to the bathroom. We know thru out the whole of Scripture that men have always repented of their sin in order to get right with God. How can you like not know that? It's a theme thru out the entire Bible.

Unlike you Jason...I make my stand on what the bible states or does not state...you interpret based upon your opinion and what you THINK.....so....you made the statement...show a verse that backs what you said...not an opinion or educated guess....!

 

[Jason0047]

Getting back to the OP, here is a long and interesting article, using the Greek and some good sources on 1 John 1:9

http://www.beyondthepulpit.org/articles/doc_view/799-1-john-1-9-if-we-confess

The Context of 1st John Chapter 5 Verse 16
(From Within the Epistle Itself):

What does John mean by “death?”

It is unlikely John means the physical death common to all humankind, whether righteous or unrighteous. With the exception of the final generation when Jesus returns, all humans will inevitably die. In the only other occurrence of "death" in the epistle (1 John 3:14) John claims true believers have already "passed over out of (ek) death into (eis) life." Those who do not love the brethren are already "abiding in death" (note the Greek present tense – an ongoing state of abiding “in death”). In the Greek clause both “life” and “death” have the definite article; that is, “the life” and “the death.” John is referring to two different spheres or realms: one of life and one of death.

Elsewhere in 1 John we read that those who love the saints “abide in the light” (1 John 2:10), are “born of God (1 John 4:7) and God abides in them (1 John 4:12). In comparison those who hate their brothers and sisters “are in darkness until now” (1 John 2:9), “walk in the darkness” (1 John 2:11) and “do not know God” (1 John 4:8). John is contrasting two different spheres, one characterized by light and life, the other by darkness and death. What determines in which realm one lives is one’s relationship to God and the community of faith. 1 John 3:14 is parallel to John 5:24 ("he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed over out of the death into the life”) where the exact same terminology is found.

John uses terms like “life,” “death,” “light” and “darkness” metaphorically to contrast two different manners of living; two different kinds of character. Those who love God and His children already live in light and life. Those who do not even now dwell in the realms of darkness and death. Nothing is said of whether one can change the “realm” in which one lives.

What does John mean by “ask for life” in 1 John 5:16?

In 1 John “everlasting life” is what God has promised to true believers (1 John 2:25). Who are these true believers? Those who love God and the brethren have already passed over from the realm of death to that of life (1 John 3:14). God has given those who love Him life that is found only in His Son (1 John 5:11) and those who believe in the name of the Son already have “everlasting life” (1 John 5:13). Indeed, God sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might have life even now (1 John 4:9). When John speaks of life he does not mean the mortal existence all humans have between birth and death, but the “everlasting life” from God that is found only in the Son, a life we can possess and experience in some sense now, though its fullness awaits the Age to Come.

In comparison the one who hates his brother does not have eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3:15) and the one who does not have the Son already lacks life (1 John 5:12). Though one continues to exist, one does not in any sense possess the everlasting life of the Age to Come. Those who have the Son and love the brethren already have “life” (1 John 2:25)(1 John 3:14) (1 John 5:11-13).

John’s epistle begins with the thematic statement about the “Word of life” (1 John 1:1-3), the life of the Father manifested in the historical person of Jesus Christ and now proclaimed as the message of “everlasting life.” In this epistle the term “life” is a way to sum up what God has done for believers including “being in the light” (1 John 1:5), the forgiveness of sins (1 John 1:9-2:2) (1 John 4:10), the granting of everlasting life (1 John 1:2) (1 John 2:25) (1 John 3:14) (1 John 5:11-13) (1 John 5:20), fellowship with one another (1 John 1:7), an anointing (1 John 2:20), love from the Father (1 John 3:1), the status of “children of God” (1 John 3:1-2) (1 John 3:10) (1 John 5:2), the hope of becoming like Him (1 John 3:2-3), the gift of the Spirit (1 John 3:24) (1 John 4:13), being “born of God” (1 John 5:1), and our victory over the world (1 John 5:4-5). John summarizes his message with the statement, “and this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son”. Compare 1 John 5:11 with 1 John 5:20.

Historical & Literary Context:

John was writing to a congregation (or possibly several small ones) experiencing turmoil caused by doctrinal disputes with former members (hereafter referred to as ‘secessionists’), individuals who had left the church and were teaching heretical doctrines (1 John 2:18-28) (1 John 4:1-6) (1 John 5:6-7). This problem went beyond discouraged or disgruntled individuals who had simply left the church. Some of them were attempting to propagate their false teachings to those still in the assembly (1 John 2:26) (1 John 4:1-3) (2 John 1:7), raising the possibility that some members of John’s congregations would be deceived and also leave the assembly.

In his opening section John lays out the main claims of the secessionists. They claimed to have “fellowship with Jesus” and to walk with Him (1 John 1:6), “to have no sin” (1 John 1:8), and that they “have not sinned” (1 John 1:10). In the same passage John provides some of the details of the controversies in play. To their claim of “fellowship with Jesus” John responds that those walking with Him “love one another” and Jesus' blood “is cleansing us from all sin” (1 John 1:7). By implication the secessionists were failing to love the brethren. As to having no sin, John points out the necessity of confessing sin and thereby receiving forgiveness (1 John 1:9). And as to the assertion they “have not sinned,” John cites this as evidence that His word is not in them (1 John 1:10).

The secessionists boasted that they have come “to know Him” (1 John 2:4). John refutes this with the charge they are “not keeping His commandments,” the logic being that if you know Him you will keep his commandments. They boasted that they are “abiding in him (1 John 2:6). If so, John retorts, they should be “walking in the same manner” as did Jesus. The secessionists emphasized that they are “in the light” yet, as John points out, they hate their brothers and sisters (1 John 2:9). When John speaks of “commandments” he is not thinking of the Ten Commandments or the Mosaic Law, but of God’s commands to love Him, believe in His Son and to love one another. In other words, the community of faith (1 John 3:23) (1 John 4:21) (1 John 5:2-3). Likewise “walking in the manner Jesus walked” refers above all to following his example of self-sacrificial love for one’s brothers and sisters (1 John 3:16).

Article Source:
http://www.gospeltoallnations.org/1_...eath_-_WEB.htm

 

[Jason0047]

Yes, my bad... I screwed that all up. So back to my first example. If just before I died, I cried out Lord forgive me for drinking too much alcohol then I would go to heaven?

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness
(1 John 1:9).

If one believes that verse, then... yes.

For it's what the Bible plainly says.

Now, this does not mean a person can outsmart God, though. He knows who is truly wicked and who loves their sin more than those who love Him more. So if a person were given the chance to cry out to God to have mercy on them before they died, then that means that God knew that such a person was one who loves God more than they love their sin.

 

[Utah]

He is all that and a bag of chips when it comes to Christianity.....he is one of a few that actually knows the truth (in his mind)

Lol. You crack me up, my Brother! Thank you, and Godspeed!

 

[MyLighthouse]

what if you forget to confess one sin? and die in your sleep? what if before the truck hits you you say damn; then you are in a coma?
Is God's mercy and forgiveness predicated on YOU asking? do you have to confess it outloud verbally?

I'm not trying to be a jerk I just don't understand why this keeping track of sins is beneficial, it seems it would be a heavy load
seems like it would be more productive to concentrate on Jesus (thanking Him for paying the price for my unbelief and disobeiance) and strive to do that which is right in His sight than marking all the checkboxes of "sins I comitted today"

This is where grace comes in (mercy for the Christian). We rightful deserve death for a sin, but God is merciful and forgives us. Jesus acts not only as a burnt offering but a guilt offering, covering known and unknown sins.

Still yet, as long as a person has breath in their lungs and refuses to confess a sin they know is wrong, is in the wrong and needs to make things right with God (repent).

It's not meant to be a load, it's meant to keep us humble and striving to be holy and perfect as God is.

With sin in our hearts God can't hear us (Ps 66:18- but if I cherish sin in my heart the Lord would not have listened)and dwell with us (Ps 5:4- you are not a God who delights in wickedness (sinfulness), evil can not dwell with you). We need prayer to build our relationship with God and the Holy Spirit inside us to be able to live a godly life, both can't be don with sin in our hearts and lives. Sin is as "pouring new wine into old wineskins, both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins."(Mrk 2:22) The old wine is sin, and the new is repentance. You allow a little of that old wineskin(sin) in your new wine(salvation) it is sure to ruin you, acknowledging and confessing your sins before God, kills out the old wineskin(sin) and replenishes you with the new. This is why daily repentance for know sins is important. Paul as mention many time about being on guard-putting on the armor, examining yourself, to be careful lest you also fall, etc. God does not take sin litely and we shouldn't either

 

[Jason0047]

The Context of 1st John Chapter 5 Verse 16
(From Within the Epistle Itself):

What does John mean by “death?”

It is unlikely John means the physical death common to all humankind, whether righteous or unrighteous. With the exception of the final generation when Jesus returns, all humans will inevitably die. In the only other occurrence of "death" in the epistle (1 John 3:14) John claims true believers have already "passed over out of (ek) death into (eis) life." Those who do not love the brethren are already "abiding in death" (note the Greek present tense – an ongoing state of abiding “in death”). In the Greek clause both “life” and “death” have the definite article; that is, “the life” and “the death.” John is referring to two different spheres or realms: one of life and one of death.

Elsewhere in 1 John we read that those who love the saints “abide in the light” (1 John 2:10), are “born of God (1 John 4:7) and God abides in them (1 John 4:12). In comparison those who hate their brothers and sisters “are in darkness until now” (1 John 2:9), “walk in the darkness” (1 John 2:11) and “do not know God” (1 John 4:8). John is contrasting two different spheres, one characterized by light and life, the other by darkness and death. What determines in which realm one lives is one’s relationship to God and the community of faith. 1 John 3:14 is parallel to John 5:24 ("he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed over out of the death into the life”) where the exact same terminology is found.

John uses terms like “life,” “death,” “light” and “darkness” metaphorically to contrast two different manners of living; two different kinds of character. Those who love God and His children already live in light and life. Those who do not even now dwell in the realms of darkness and death. Nothing is said of whether one can change the “realm” in which one lives.

What does John mean by “ask for life” in 1 John 5:16?

In 1 John “everlasting life” is what God has promised to true believers (1 John 2:25). Who are these true believers? Those who love God and the brethren have already passed over from the realm of death to that of life (1 John 3:14). God has given those who love Him life that is found only in His Son (1 John 5:11) and those who believe in the name of the Son already have “everlasting life” (1 John 5:13). Indeed, God sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might have life even now (1 John 4:9). When John speaks of life he does not mean the mortal existence all humans have between birth and death, but the “everlasting life” from God that is found only in the Son, a life we can possess and experience in some sense now, though its fullness awaits the Age to Come.

In comparison the one who hates his brother does not have eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3:15) and the one who does not have the Son already lacks life (1 John 5:12). Though one continues to exist, one does not in any sense possess the everlasting life of the Age to Come. Those who have the Son and love the brethren already have “life” (1 John 2:25)(1 John 3:14) (1 John 5:11-13).

John’s epistle begins with the thematic statement about the “Word of life” (1 John 1:1-3), the life of the Father manifested in the historical person of Jesus Christ and now proclaimed as the message of “everlasting life.” In this epistle the term “life” is a way to sum up what God has done for believers including “being in the light” (1 John 1:5), the forgiveness of sins (1 John 1:9-2:2) (1 John 4:10), the granting of everlasting life (1 John 1:2) (1 John 2:25) (1 John 3:14) (1 John 5:11-13) (1 John 5:20), fellowship with one another (1 John 1:7), an anointing (1 John 2:20), love from the Father (1 John 3:1), the status of “children of God” (1 John 3:1-2) (1 John 3:10) (1 John 5:2), the hope of becoming like Him (1 John 3:2-3), the gift of the Spirit (1 John 3:24) (1 John 4:13), being “born of God” (1 John 5:1), and our victory over the world (1 John 5:4-5). John summarizes his message with the statement, “and this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son”. Compare 1 John 5:11 with 1 John 5:20.

Historical & Literary Context:

John was writing to a congregation (or possibly several small ones) experiencing turmoil caused by doctrinal disputes with former members (hereafter referred to as ‘secessionists’), individuals who had left the church and were teaching heretical doctrines (1 John 2:18-28) (1 John 4:1-6) (1 John 5:6-7). This problem went beyond discouraged or disgruntled individuals who had simply left the church. Some of them were attempting to propagate their false teachings to those still in the assembly (1 John 2:26) (1 John 4:1-3) (2 John 1:7), raising the possibility that some members of John’s congregations would be deceived and also leave the assembly.

In his opening section John lays out the main claims of the secessionists. They claimed to have “fellowship with Jesus” and to walk with Him (1 John 1:6), “to have no sin” (1 John 1:8), and that they “have not sinned” (1 John 1:10). In the same passage John provides some of the details of the controversies in play. To their claim of “fellowship with Jesus” John responds that those walking with Him “love one another” and Jesus' blood “is cleansing us from all sin” (1 John 1:7). By implication the secessionists were failing to love the brethren. As to having no sin, John points out the necessity of confessing sin and thereby receiving forgiveness (1 John 1:9). And as to the assertion they “have not sinned,” John cites this as evidence that His word is not in them (1 John 1:10).

The secessionists boasted that they have come “to know Him” (1 John 2:4). John refutes this with the charge they are “not keeping His commandments,” the logic being that if you know Him you will keep his commandments. They boasted that they are “abiding in him (1 John 2:6). If so, John retorts, they should be “walking in the same manner” as did Jesus. The secessionists emphasized that they are “in the light” yet, as John points out, they hate their brothers and sisters (1 John 2:9). When John speaks of “commandments” he is not thinking of the Ten Commandments or the Mosaic Law, but of God’s commands to love Him, believe in His Son and to love one another. In other words, the community of faith (1 John 3:23) (1 John 4:21) (1 John 5:2-3). Likewise “walking in the manner Jesus walked” refers above all to following his example of self-sacrificial love for one’s brothers and sisters (1 John 3:16).

Article Source:
http://www.gospeltoallnations.org/1_...eath_-_WEB.htm

Now, I realize that you were talking about the context of 1 John 1:9, but if you hold to the view that unconfessed sin in a believer's life leads to physical death and not spiritual death, then this write up (on the 1st epistle of John) summarizing the points of life and death from within the epistle itself should give us a clue that it is only talking about spiritual life and death and not physical life and death. That is the idea being contrasted here. Light and darkness. Life and death. All of which is spiritual and not physical. For while God may concern Himself with our physical well being, the Lord is more concerned with our spiritual well being because that is eternal (Whereas this physical body is not eternal).

Now, if you believe 1 John 1:9 is talking to the unbeliever or new person who only comes to Christ, then one would have to ignore 1 John 2:1 that says we (believers) are to sin not and if we do sin, we have an advocate that we can go to named Jesus Christ.

 

[Sophia]

But yes, if a person sins and then they die, they are not saved. It's pretty basic and simple. A person's last act will reflect the type of life that they lived. For God is the giver and taker of life.

Philosophy, and not Biblical.
This thought is not EVER present in Scripture. It is an apologetic of Wesleyanism from the 1950s.

Saved man, dealing with the sin of cursing, but is repentant and rapidly overcoming the sin.
Driving home from a prayer meeting, where he confessed his sin before God, and righted his heart.
Oncoming traffic swerves into his lane.
His last words were "Oh ¡#&@*!" as he was instantly killed upon impact.

Is the Father as forgiving as you, or less, or more?

Are we saved by our works, or by His Work?
Are we maintained by our deeds, or by His Spirit.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Now, I realize that you were talking about the context of 1 John 1:9, but if you hold to the view that unconfessed sin in a believer's life leads to physical death and not spiritual death, then this write up (on the 1st epistle of John) summarizing the points of life and death from within the epistle itself should give us a clue that it is only talking about spiritual life and death and not physical life and death. That is the idea being contrasted here. Light and darkness. Life and death. All of which is spiritual and not physical. For while God may concern Himself with our physical well being, the Lord is more concerned with our spiritual well being because that is eternal (Whereas this physical body is not eternal).

Now, if you believe 1 John 1:9 is talking to the unbeliever or new person who only comes to Christ, then one would have to ignore 1 John 2:1 that says we (believers) are to sin not and if we do sin, we have an advocate that we can go to named Jesus Christ.

Yes as this is where the debate falls short when those try and take a verse speaking of spiritual death and making it say physical death instead. We are told not to worry about the things of our life right now, and the death we are told to keep from facing is the second death in the lake of fire (spiritual death). Rather a person confesses their sins or not all will face physical death up tell the day the Lord comes to gather us together, and even then the corruptible fleshly body will be changed into an incorruptible spiritual body.
So to say if one does not confess their sins they will only face physical death as a punishment does not fit what the bible says. Even James says in his final two scriptures in his epistle that if we turn a brother or sister that has fallen away back to the Lord, we will save their soul from death. And we know from scripture only God can destroy the soul....

 

[kennethcadwell]

Philosophy, and not Biblical.
This thought is not EVER present in Scripture. It is an apologetic of Wesleyanism from the 1950s.

Saved man, dealing with the sin of cursing, but is repentant and rapidly overcoming the sin.
Driving home from a prayer meeting, where he confessed his sin before God, and righted his heart.
Oncoming traffic swerves into his lane.
His last words were "Oh ¡#&@*!" as he was instantly killed upon impact.

Is the Father as forgiving as you, or less, or more?

Are we saved by our works, or by His Work?
Are we maintained by our deeds, or by His Spirit.

God know are hearts, so we can not compare a last minute situation with a person who turns away from the Lord and lives the next 10 years that way in a sinful lifestyle and then dies. Lets look at what James says about a fallen away believer;

[h=1]James 5:19-20

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.[/h]

 

[Sophia]

Now, I realize that you were talking about the context of 1 John 1:9, but if you hold to the view that unconfessed sin in a believer's life leads to physical death and not spiritual death, then this write up (on the 1st epistle of John) summarizing the points of life and death from within the epistle itself should give us a clue that it is only talking about spiritual life and death and not physical life and death. That is the idea being contrasted here. Light and darkness. Life and death. All of which is spiritual and not physical. For while God may concern Himself with our physical well being, the Lord is more concerned with our spiritual well being because that is eternal (Whereas this physical body is not eternal).

Now, if you believe 1 John 1:9 is talking to the unbeliever or new person who only comes to Christ, then one would have to ignore 1 John 2:1 that says we (believers) are to sin not and if we do sin, we have an advocate that we can go to named Jesus Christ.

A god that condemns that which his son purchased is not concerned with the welfare of his son's property.
A god that grants salvation freely, yet takes it back instantly upon every mistake is not a god who has any care or concern for those he "saved".

God is not as fickle as the ways of man, and does not renege His Promises so easily.
The seal upon the elect is not so easily broken.
If salvation rested upon momentary confession, then there is no point in leaving the doorway to step outside. Live your life in cowering fear of error, for you are bound to make a mistake, and death comes to all people, without warning or time to confess.

 

[Sophia]

God know are hearts, so we can not compare a last minute situation with a person who turns away from the Lord and lives the next 10 years that way in a sinful lifestyle and then dies. Lets look at what James says about a fallen away believer;

James 5:19-20

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

I agree that we certainly can not compare the two. Explain that to Jason please.

 

[Jason0047]

Unlike you Jason...I make my stand on what the bible states or does not state...you interpret based upon your opinion and what you THINK.....so....you made the statement...show a verse that backs what you said...not an opinion or educated guess....!

The call to personal repentance:

Acts 2:38 See also 2 Timothy 2:19

Examples of individual repentance:

Numbers 22:31-35 Balaam; 2 Samuel 24:10 pp 1 Chronicles 21:8 David, after taking a census; 1 Kings 21:27-29 Ahab; 2 Kings 22:19 Josiah; Job 42:6 Job; Psalm 51:1-17 David, following his adultery with Bathsheba; Luke 15:21 the prodigal son; Luke 18:13 the tax collector in the temple; Matthew 26:75 pp Mark 14:72 pp Luke 22:61-62 Peter's sorrow after denying Jesus Christ; John 21:15-17 Peter's confession and reinstatement; Acts 8:22-24 Simon the sorcerer's repentance may not have been genuine.

Corporate repentance:
Examples of corporate repentance:

Jeremiah 18:7-8; Matthew 3:1-6 pp Mark 1:1-6 pp Luke 3:1-6 See also Numbers 21:7 Israel in the desert;Judges 10:15-16 Israel in the time of the judges; 1 Samuel 7:3-4 Israel, after asking for a king; Isaiah 19:22Egypt turns to God in repentance; Acts 9:32-35 the people of Lydda and Sharon

Leaders encouraged corporate repentance:

Ezra 10:1 See also 2 Kings 23:1-7 Josiah leads Judah in repentance; 2 Chronicles 15:8-15 Asa leads Judah in repentance; 2 Chronicles 30:6-9 Hezekiah leads Israel and Judah in repentance; Ezra 10:10-12 Following the exile, Ezra leads the Israelites in repentance; Jonah 3:6-8 The king of Nineveh leads the people in repentance.
Corporate repentance within the church:

Revelation 2:4-5 See also 2 Corinthians 7:9-11; Revelation 2:14-16,20-22; Revelation 3:3,19-20

Symbols of repentance:

1 Kings 21:27; Jonah 3:5 See also 1 Samuel 7:6; Ezra 8:21; Nehemiah 9:1; Jeremiah 36:9; Joel 1:13-14; Joel 2:12


Source:
http://biblehub.com/topical/dbt/6735.htm

 

[kennethcadwell]

I agree that we certainly can not compare the two. Explain that to Jason please.

I have before as that is one point we don't see eye to eye on, as I do not believe we are automatically cast away from one sin here or there. But if a person continues to walk in that unrepented/unconfessed sin then their salvation is in jeopardy. As we can not compare last minute death situations to a rest of a persons lifetime of disobedience. If a person is walking properly most of their life and then in their final minutes they commit a sin that has no chance of confession being made, that person will not lose their salvation. Because the Lord said He will have mercy on those He will have mercy, and I believe He was referring to situations like this. However if a person does walk in the gospel of Christ, and then later turn away and continue the next 10-20+ years of their life in unrepented sin then dies I do not believe this person will receive eternal life. The reason is the bible gives us more then one situation where this example was given.

 

[Jason0047]

A god that condemns that which his son purchased is not concerned with the welfare of his son's property.
A god that grants salvation freely, yet takes it back instantly upon every mistake is not a god who has any care or concern for those he "saved".

God is not as fickle as the ways of man, and does not renege His Promises so easily.
The seal upon the elect is not so easily broken.
If salvation rested upon momentary confession, then there is no point in leaving the doorway to step outside. Live your life in cowering fear of error, for you are bound to make a mistake, and death comes to all people, without warning or time to confess.

Perfect love casts out fear. If a believer is truly transformed and born again and they have allowed the Lord to work in their lives, then they don't have anything to worry about. For they are changed. Different and not like the world who sins all the time. But if they are a person who is of the world still, then they will naturally feel they can get away with sin in some way. However, there is no outsmarting God. 1 John 3:10 says, "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." For he that sins is of the devil (1 John 3:8). For they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts.

In other words, the scenario you describe will not happen to the true believer in Jesus Christ. God will protect His people (Who are good and not evil). Yes, I am aware there are those who are saved by the skin of their teeth like Samson and Solomon. However, they are not examples of how we should live uprightly before the Lord.

The point I am trying to make is that God is Holy and He will not make an excuse for our sin under any circumstance. For how many sins did it take for Adam and Eve to fall? Just one. That's all it took. What makes you think things have changed?

 

[Jason0047]

Do believers normally experience fear when a fellow believer dies? No. Why on Earth would an entire church and others who heard about Ananais and Sapphira death of their going to heaven for lying scare anyone? Why should people be afraid to go to Heaven for sinning? That doesn't make any sense. They went to Hell and not Heaven. I mean, what kind of message does that send? Should we just sin now so we can be with the Lord sooner? No, of course not. God's judgments do not lead to life but they lead to death (i.e. spiritual death).