Oh goody another OSAS thread!

[Ralph-]

OSAS believe they can sin all they want and still go to heaven, you must obey God in order to go to heaven.

This is self contradictory.

It's not, because the faith that justifies all by itself is the faith that produces works in a person--specifically, works of love.


"The only thing that counts (towards justification, see context) is faith expressing itself through love."-Galatians 5:6


See? Even the author of the great 'grace vs. works' teaching in the Bible says the faith that justifies apart from works is the faith that works. If your faith does not work, you may not have the faith that justifies apart from works and so you are not saved. And you can tell if you do or not by how you respond to what I just said.

If you persist in your works-less faith and insist you don't have to do any works to be saved then you probably don't have the faith that justifies apart from works. But if you are convicted by what I say and seek in righteous indignation to produce the works of your faith you do indeed have the faith that justifies apart from works and are saved.

 

[BenFTW]

It's not, because the faith that justifies all by itself is the faith that produces works in a person--specifically, works of love.


"The only thing that counts (towards justification, see context) is faith expressing itself through love."-Galatians 5:6


See? Even the author of the great 'grace vs. works' teaching in the Bible says the faith that justifies apart from works is the faith that works. If your faith does not work, you may not have the faith that justifies apart from works and so you are not saved. And you can tell if you do or not by how you respond to what I just said.

If you persist in your works-less faith and insist you don't have to do any works to be saved then you probably don't have the faith that justifies apart from works. But if you are convicted by what I say and seek in righteous indignation to produce the works of your faith you do indeed have the faith that justifies apart from works and are saved.

You put too much weight upon your works, in contrast to your faith in Christ. The Christian will work, but truly it is faith that works. You see, God has said in His word that salvation is not a wage due, but a gift. It is by grace, by faith, and not works. This is not an anti-work proposal, rather it centers our faith upon that which we work. Jesus Christ. He is the foundation and it is from there that we then work and gain rewards. This work is contingent upon our salvation, meaning we are saved unto good works and not by them.

You know what the greatest thing about works and rewards is? God prepared all of it, and we simply walk into it, to the glory of God. This emphasizes obedience that leads to blessings in the after life (of an eternal magnitude). I just find that so... neat, that not only will God reward us for these works, but He has even prepared them beforehand.

 

[Ralph-]

If you are saved you will know it because of the witness of the Holy Spirit with your spirit.

...AND by the witness of the Spirit in your daily living (the fruit of the Spirit).

Ultimately, if the witness of the Spirit you have inside is alone and you have no corresponding witness on the outside in how you live you may not have the witness of the Holy Spirit in you that you think you have.

 

[Ralph-]

You put too much weight upon your works, in contrast to your faith in Christ.

No, you just heard it that way. Really.

The Christian will work, but truly it is faith that works.

Which is what I said.

You see, God has said in His word that salvation is not a wage due, but a gift.

You just think I said works earn salvation. That's how you heard it, and not what I said. And I know why you heard it that way but I'm not going to get into it unless you pursue this further.

 

[BenFTW]

No, you just heard it that way. Really.



Which is what I said.



You just think I said works earn salvation. That's how you heard it, and not what I said. And I know why but I'm not going to get into it unless you pursue this further.

Mainly because that is what I hear others often say about you. For that I do apologize if they have wrongly concluded your stance and I just piggy backed on their judgement. So we are in agreement? I just think you don't like people expressing the grace of God without emphasis on the result of that grace. A righteous and holy life, as God sanctifies us and leads us (as we obey) into the good works He has planned.

 

[Ralph-]

...your putting people under law and rejecting grace, if on could sin themselves out if salvation, then grace is null and void

The sanctified person in Hebrews 10:26-29 loses the benefit of the sacrifice of Christ in salvation he has received because he is willfully sinning in a rejection and denial of Christ, not because he is sinning the sins of the weak and ignorant believer growing up into Christ.

the same author said hat by one sacrifice christ perfected forever those who are being sanctified, can the author contradict himself? Does forever no mean forever?

Yes, the person perfected in Christ is perfected forever, not momentarily until the next time he fails like it was under the old covenant system of atonement (context, EG, context). That's why you have to keep believing......so you can keep the perfect standing before the Father you have in Christ that will never stop giving you that perfect standing.

 

[Depleted]

No, not at all.

It is my (probably fruitless) hope that this will not become yet another in a sea of osas debates.

Instead, I'd like to know why this subject is sooo important that people feel the need to debate it until they puke?

The vast majority of posts put up on BDF are talking around God without ever dealing with God. Why not that one too? Heaven forbid, we actually go for what does God want.

 

[Ugly]

To save souls from hell, if possible. OSAS believe they can sin all they want and still go to heaven, but you must obey God in order to go to heaven. I will never give up trying to save them with truth- just like Noah tried right up until they entered the ark.

I'm OSAS. I don't believe that. No one I know does. Just cheap shots taken to make excuses for causing division. A poor tactic if weak character.

 

[Ralph-]

Mainly because that is what I hear others often say about you. For that I do apologize if they have wrongly concluded your stance and I just piggy backed on their judgement.

Yes, they have wrongly concluded my stance. And I appreciate your apology. Thank you.

So we are in agreement?

I think so.

I just think you don't like people expressing the grace of God without emphasis on the result of that grace.

That is, without the appropriate emphasis on the result of that grace. For surely the works are not greater than the faith that produces them. The primary emphasis is on faith.

A righteous and holy life, as God sanctifies us and leads us (as we obey) into the good works He has planned.

Amen.

I think the rub comes in on the 'as we obey' part. Many people seem to think if we have to obey that's us trying to earn our own salvation. But I think it's clear in scripture that obedience is not us being on auto pilot. We often have to make a conscious decision to do right and resist the flesh (in the power of the Spirit) and obey what we know that we are to do as obedient children of God. That's not us earning our own salvation in our own strength, or even serving God in our own strength, but that is what many Christians think.

 

[Ralph-]

I'm OSAS. I don't believe that. No one I know does. Just cheap shots taken to make excuses for causing division. A poor tactic if weak character.

No, she's not taking cheap shots. I could name names of people who participate in this forum who openly say they believe this.

 

[joefizz]

...AND by the witness of the Spirit in your daily living (the fruit of the Spirit).

Ultimately, if the witness of the Spirit you have inside is alone and you have no corresponding witness on the outside in how you live you may not have the witness of the Holy Spirit in you that you think you have.

Let me ask you a simple yet perhaps difficult question...
Which is greater "faith" or the "holy spirit"?

 

[Ugly]

No, she's not taking cheap shots. I could name names of people who participate in this forum who openly say they believe this.

Making blanket statements is Always a cheap shot.

 

[RickyZ]

I'm OSAS. I don't believe that. No one I know does. Just cheap shots taken to make excuses for causing division. A poor tactic if weak character.

Saying things like 'a poor tactic of weak character' is not a cause of division?

 

[Ralph-]

Let me ask you a simple yet perhaps difficult question...
Which is greater "faith" or the "holy spirit"?

Greater in regard to what?

You are able to have faith which enables you to then believe because of the Holy Spirit, but you receive the Holy Spirit in salvation because faith enables you to then believe.

You can't have faith (the ability to know something is true that you can't see) without the Holy Spirit, but you can't have the Holy Spirit (in salvation) without faith. So we need to know greater in regard to what exactly.

 

[joefizz]

Saying things like 'a poor tactic of weak character' is not a cause of division?

He's merely stating the obvious,this circle continues over and over,and when one side loses credibility or starts getting rebuked or making false claims,it leads to "underhanded tactics", or as he put it "division".

 

[RickyZ]

It was inevitable to morph into the actual debate. Thank you to those who remained on subject.

Here's my contention - there's what, 6 threads currently running on the subject? DCon has a thread on it that's 3500 pages long? The same handful of arguments on both sides have been made how many thousands of times?

And all of it with what result?

The result is good Christians tied up in 'vain repetitions', wasting hordes of time and energy on what is for the great vast majority of us a moot subject. Energy that could be better spent on more productive endeavors.

Idle hands are the devil's work. And I would suggest that a lot of this battle is at the devil's urging, lest that time and effort be spent actually battling him.

Agree to disagree and MOVE ON. Beating a dead horse never helped anyone.

 

[joefizz]

It was inevitable to morph into the actual debate. Thank you to those who remained on subject.

Here's my contention - there's what, 6 threads currently running on the subject? DCon has a thread on it that's 3500 pages long? The same handful of arguments on both sides have been made how many thousands of times?

And all of it with what result?

The result is good Christians tied up in 'vain repetitions', wasting hordes of time and energy on what is for the great vast majority of us a moot subject. Energy that could be better spent on more productive endeavors.

Idle hands are the devil's work. And I would suggest that a lot of this battle is at the devil's urging, lest that time and effort be spent actually battling him.

Agree to disagree and MOVE ON. Beating a dead horse never helped anyone.

A good point,we can endlessly spend our time here talking amongst ourselves as well as with new comers,but outside the "shield" of the internet to hide behind so to speak we ought to be able to help the lost find Jesus especially considering that the time of the end is closer now than ever.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Many, many people are rejecting traditional once saved always belief that says the true believer will not continue in his old life and are believing that the true believer can live in his old life and even fall back into unbelief in a denial of Christ, and they will still be saved (centuries of traditional belief has been that this person was never saved to begin with).

You are absolutely right in that false doctrine is rapidly corrupting the churches, and that Hyper Grace is distorting grace altogether. If you have not checked already, I have exposed the false teachings of Joseph Prince and Paul Ellis again and again on the threads which joaniemarie posts on a regular basis.

But I was referring to the original OSAS doctrine which teaches exactly what Scripture teaches (Tit 2:11,12);

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world.

So if any preacher or anyone calling themselves "Christian" violates this Scripture, they are not only lying but self-deceived.

 

[Ralph-]

It was inevitable to morph into the actual debate. Thank you to those who remained on subject.

Here's my contention - there's what, 6 threads currently running on the subject? DCon has a thread on it that's 3500 pages long? The same handful of arguments on both sides have been made how many thousands of times?

And all of it with what result?

The result is good Christians tied up in 'vain repetitions', wasting hordes of time and energy on what is for the great vast majority of us a moot subject. Energy that could be better spent on more productive endeavors.

Idle hands are the devil's work. And I would suggest that a lot of this battle is at the devil's urging, lest that time and effort be spent actually battling him.

Agree to disagree and MOVE ON. Beating a dead horse never helped anyone.

I think it is defeated Christians who make a big deal about once saved always saved. I say that because they get very defensive about sinning and often feel the need to point out that you sin too.

They wouldn't have to be this way if they'd just recognize the difference between sinning because you're weak or ignorant or foolish but growing up in your faith in Christ, and sinning because you don't appreciate or value the forgiveness you have received in Christ. The latter is a rejection of Christ and thus a form of unbelief which will eventually cause you to forfeit the grace of God you have received.

The person who says they are a believer but who won't show any appreciation for what Christ has done for them in releasing them from sin and stays in their old life unchanged is on the slippery slope down to the second death. For them 'once saved always saved' is the salve that gives them false assurance that they are not.

 

[Ugly]

I think it is defeated Christians who make a big deal about once saved always saved. I say that because they get very defensive about sinning and often feel the need to point out that you sin too.

They wouldn't have to be this way if they'd just recognize the difference between sinning because you're weak or ignorant or foolish but growing up in your faith in Christ, and sinning because you don't appreciate or value the forgiveness you have received in Christ. The latter is a rejection of Christ and thus a form of unbelief which will eventually cause you to forfeit the grace of God you have received.

The person who says they are a believer but who won't show any appreciation for what Christ has done for them in releasing them from sin and stays in their old life unchanged is on the slippery slope down to the second death. For them 'once saved always saved' is the salve that gives them false assurance that they are not.

This entire BDF constantly focuses on the subject. Both sides. And you, as a regular, active member here fall into that.
Once again the attempt to trash and accuse OSAS believers. More character revelation. And missing the hypocrisy in such statements.