Oh goody another OSAS thread!

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Oh I forgot to mention, look at the verse...

"It is by grace (Christ's blood) you have been saved, through faith." It does not say 'by faith' but 'through faith', so it does matter. We have to go through faith to get to grace- which is what saves.

Romans 3:30 is an interesting verse. It says (literally) that the circumcision is saved out of faith, and the uncircumcision is saved through THE faith.

 

[Ralph-]

You're either being ignorant, or dishonest. Paul specifically wrote that the 10 commandments were made 'obsolete'. The Greek word actually means to render useless (entirely idle)

Post the passage/verse and we will examine it.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Notice, ""Thou shalt not step off of cliff without a parachute". " is kept/upheld in both cases. No new law here, HeRose.

That sounds like Hebrew Roots division in which it's claimed that it is all one law. No distinction between old and new. Just a big illogical, confusing mush.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I'm no more contradicting myself than Paul is:

"5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit "-1 Titus 3:5

"15But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety. "-1 Timothy 2:15

Now, explain why Paul is not contradicting himself, but when I say what Paul says I am.

That doesn't mean salvation; it means women will be preserved from death when giving birth.

 

[Ralph-]

Those who walk by the spirit (not law) do the righteousness required by the law of Moses.

That's right.

Notice, even you say the law of Moses is done when you do that.

Don't confuse how we uphold the law of Moses through the new way of faith with some kind of new law that is followed.

You keep trying to divide the law up into parts. We are under no obligation to any part of the law of Moses.

We know this is not true by the simple fact that James exhorts us to keep the royal law FOUND IN SCRIPTURE, "love your neighbor as yourself (Leviticus 19:18).

Of course we are obligated to the law of Moses. It's just that some of that obligation (the ceremonial law) is met by our faith in the work of Christ. No violation of the law of Moses, no destroying of the law of Moses occurs. It is simply now upheld in the new WAY of faith in Christ (Romans 7:6). The law in it's entirely is upheld and fulfilled through faith in Christ and walking by the Spirit, as opposed to upholding it through powerless words on stone and trying to keep it in the power of the flesh.

We are either under all of it, or none of it. Period.

You are ONLY under the entire letter of the law if you are trying to be justified by it.

In Christ we are set free from that and uphold/fulfill it in the new way of the Spirit and faith in Christ.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The law remains a complete whole.

What happens is because of the work of Christ on the cross the law is no longer the covenant between man and God by which we draw near to God (we do that now through faith in Christ). And his work makes it so some laws simply do not have to be LITERALLY fulfilled. They aren't destroyed, they aren't violated. They are fulfilled, not removed from the law. They are already fulfilled for us one time for all time by the finished work of Christ so that we have no remaining literal, physical obligation concerning those particular laws.

Jesus said he did not come to destroy the law. But the popular theology in the church today is that Christ did destroy the law and made it so Christians can be in violation of the law (and are) but that it doesn't matter now because of Christ.

Law is not a covenant. In other words, the law of Moses is not the Mosaic covenant, it is the law of the covenant, and Jesus fulfilled ALL of that law. You simply don't understand what Christ meant when he said he did not come to destroy the law. He said that not one jot or tittle would pass from the law, so if you are required to keep any of it, you are required to keep all of it.

 

[Ralph-]

That sounds like Hebrew Roots division in which it's claimed that it is all one law. No distinction between old and new. Just a big illogical, confusing mush.

Old and new what?

Don't say covenant. Because that's NOT what I'm saying.

The law remains a complete undivided entity that gets upheld and fulfilled through faith in Christ and walking by the Spirit. You are confusing the ceremonial law that gets upheld and fulfilled through the work of Christ as a division away from the law of Moses. It is not. It's the law of Moses that gets fulfilled by Christ's work. It's not a matter of part of the law being divided away.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

That's right.

Notice, even you say the law of Moses is done when you do that. .

No, I didn't. I said the righteousness required by the law of Moses is done when we walk in the spirit.

 

[Ralph-]

Law is not a covenant.

It WAS a covenant. It was the old covenant through which man drew near to God. Now we have a new covenant through which we draw near to God--Christ.

He said that not one jot or tittle would pass from the law, so if you are required to keep any of it, you are required to keep all of it.

I uphold all of it. Don't you? Isn't Christ your Sabbath Rest? Isn't Christ your Passover Lamb? Isn't it through the Spirit that you 'love your neighbor as yourself'? When you pay your pastor aren't you fulfilling the law to not muzzle the oxen while it's treading out the grain?


.

 

[Ralph-]

No, I didn't. I said the righteousness required by the law of Moses is done when we walk in the spirit.

How is the righteousness of the law of Moses not the law of Moses?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Post the passage/verse and we will examine it.

But if the ministration of death written [and] engraven in stones was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance, which was to be done away: 2 Corinthians 3:7

done away
G2673 καταργέω katargeo (kat-arg-eh'-o) v.
1. to be (render) entirely idle (useless)

 

[Ralph-]

That doesn't mean salvation; it means women will be preserved from death when giving birth.

And so also people are saved from physical death when they get water baptized? (1 Peter 3:21)

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

How is the righteousness of the law of Moses not the law of Moses?

In the same way that "Thou shalt not walk of a cliff without a parachute" is not the law of gravity.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

It WAS a covenant. It was the old covenant through which man drew near to God. Now we have a new covenant through which we draw near to God--Christ.

No it wasn't. Covenants are conditioned by law. Break the law, you break the covenant. The old covenant had its law, and the new covenant has its law. They are not the same.

 

[Faith_Like_Paul]

Hebrews 10:26

26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins

 

[Ralph-]

But if the ministration of death written [and] engraven in stones was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance, which was to be done away: 2 Corinthians 3:7

done away
G2673 καταργέω katargeo (kat-arg-eh'-o) v.
1. to be (render) entirely idle (useless)

I thought this was what you were referring to. Just wanted to make sure.

The law was made katargeō in regard to what? That we can now steal, and murder, and commit adultery? Or that it can no longer condemn us?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

And so also people are saved from physical death when they get water baptized? (1 Peter 3:21)

Water baptism is stated to be specifically for salvation. Surely you don't think that there is a law that states women will be saved into eternal life by bearing children? That's just funny to even think about.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm no more contradicting myself than Paul is:

"5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit "-1 Titus 3:5

"15But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety. "-1 Timothy 2:15

Now, explain why Paul is not contradicting himself, but when I say what Paul says I am.

You won't be able to explain it because you a product of the church that can only understand being saved by works as meaning you are justified by your works, and works earn your salvation. Mailmandan, too. You along with countless others in the church are literally incapable of reconciling the two passages above. The most you'll be able to come up with is to simply ignore what Paul (and Peter) said about what we do saving us. You can thank the misguided, uneducated church for that.

see, You can't get away with it. you preach salvation by works, admit it, and stop denying it.

If your going to believe we are saved by the works we do, then admit it, and stop saying you are not when people confront you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I've heard many people say they believe we are not saved by works, but then turn around and contradict themselves all the time. A Roman Catholic tried to tell me that he does not believe we are saved by works, but then turned around and made this contradictory statement below:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..

I also had someone who attends the church of Christ try to tell me that he does not believe we are saved by works, but then turned around and made this contradictory statement below:

"It is works of obedience and not works of the law or works of merit that help save us."

Such people seem to believe they found a loophole around passages of scripture, such as (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..) by teaching we are saved by "these" works and just not "those" works, but their arguments are flawed.

it would not be so bad if they would just admit it, If you think we are saved by our deeds then say it, Don;t deny it, then go around preaching we are saved because we do all these deeds. All they do is make themselves look bad. And what is sad is I believe many of them can not even see it, They have been indoctrinated to believe this way.

 

[mailmandan]

Yes, 'faith' does get more specific- 'The Faith'- which is more than belief in God or belief that He will help you throughout your christian walk, it means belief in, and the practice of, His doctrine- which is the new testament- which includes belief, baptism, confession, repentance, and the whole kit and kabootle.

Don't confuse saving faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:8) which is (belief, trust, reliance in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation) with the whole body of truth contained in the scriptures and make up the Christian faith and sets it apart from false religions and cults.

Your whole kit and kabootle 4 step plan of salvation equates to salvation through faith in Christ plus works. Repentance precedes saving belief in Christ. We must first repent "change our mind" before we can believe the gospel and become saved. (Two sides to the same coin). Repentance is not merely moral self-reformation with follows faith. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are (not two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together).

Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9 to verse 10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess. *NOT TWO SEPERATE STEPS TO SALVATION BUT CHRONOLOGICALLY TOGETHER.*

Water baptism FOLLOWS saving belief/faith in Christ (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 16:30-34). By reversing the scriptural order of repent and believe and turning faith and confession into two separate steps to salvation, along with adding water baptism to the formula of salvation through faith (and basically defining faith as your 4 step plan of salvation) you have crossed the line into salvation by faith PLUS WORKS. Through bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics, you are trying to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith.

What it all boils down to is that only Christ's blood saves a person from their sins, but these things lead you to Christ's blood. You cannot be saved by one of these things alone, not even by faith alone. And all of these things require obedience, including faith.

We are not saved by faith alone "IN THE SENSE" that we never repented, but still have faith or that the word of faith is in our heart, but not in our mouth or that faith remains "alone" -- (barren of works). That is not what is meant by salvation through faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone. We are saved the moment that we place our (faith belief, trust, reliance) in Christ alone for salvation BEFORE water baptism. Those who have done so have already repented in the process of changing their mind and choosing to trust in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. Also, for the believer, the word of faith is in their mouth and in their heart TOGETHER so confession is already covered. This all precedes water baptism.

Our obedience, whether by faith or by works, CANNOT earn salvation (Christ's blood- which is God's grace), therefore we can obey to max effort and still grace will be a gift, because it's not that obedience won't be accepted as payment for our own sins- it's that it can't. So since God chooses some people and not other people to give grace to, it is up to him what that deciding factor will be. There are a billion deciding factors He can choose from- all of which cannot earn grace. But the deciding factor He has chosen He let us know so that we can receive the gift. His deciding factor is those who obey Him with all their heart. This is confusing to many because we go to work and our efforts earn a paycheck. We expercise to a long workout and we earn fitness.

Are you trusting in Christ's finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation OR are you ALSO trusting in your "best efforts to obey Him with all of your heart" as a supplemental means to receiving salvation as well? -- That's works. We have access by faith into grace.. (Romans 5:2) Not faith plus baptism or faith plus works.

Our efforts in this life do earn us may things. So it is hard to grasp the concept that we can work to obey God with all our mite, and still grace has to be a gift, but that He won't give it to those who don't even try to obey Him. Obedience does not earn it, but He chooses to give it to those who obey, and not to give it to those who don't obey. Even faith (simple belief) is obedience. It is impossible to not obey God and receive His grace.

Obedience does not earn the gift, but we must obey Him in order to receive the gift is an oxymoron if you are talking about works of obedience which follow saving faith in Christ. The act of obedience that saves is choosing to believe the gospel by trusting in Christ's finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation (Romans 1:16; 10:16). If we are trusting in Christ plus our acts of obedience/works to save us then we are not trusting exclusively in Christ to save us. Prior to my conversion, I grew up in the Roman Catholic church and had temporarily attended the church of Christ, so I understand where you are coming from. Been there, done that, but now I trust in Christ alone for salvation. The blinders are gone.