Oh goody another OSAS thread!

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Sep 4, 2012
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Of course Jesus died. I don't see how what Jesus experienced is synonymous to what apostates experience. John SPECIFICALLY tells us that these guys "experience" did NOT mean they were ever saved. Because if they WERE saved, although possibly wandering away for a time, they would have REMAINED saved.
If Jesus fully experienced (tasted) death, then those spoken of in Hebrews really did believe and were baptized into Christ (the definition of being saved) because they could not have received the holy spirit apart from that.

And the people that John was talking about had to have believed and been baptized into Christ because the couldn't have been part of the church without that. They left the church because they left the doctrine of Christ to follow gnostic teachers.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Here are some other thoughts, from another thread, by much more learned people in Greek than me on Hebrews 6. I don't remember who this needs to be attributed to but this is the 1st:

"Was It Impossible Now to Ever Renew Them Again to Repentance in Order to Spiritually Grow?To answer this pertinent question it is helpful to closely observe the participial phrase: “Since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.” The phrase “since they crucify again” is just one word in the Greek text anastauroō. It is a present active temporal [point in time] participle which is contemporaneous in time to the action of the main verb and that carries the idea of while doing, especially when it is related to the main verb. This could then be translated, “If they fall away, [it is impossible] to renew them again to repentance, while they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.” The writer of Hebrews is not shutting the door forever upon these believers experiencing spiritual growth again. But he is making it clear that this spiritual renewal will not occur while at the same time they persist in going back to the defunct Temple and its needless sacrifices."

The second is by CCmember MarcR. A man who I believe has shown here impeccable Integrity and love of Christ:

Heb 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

The words 'For it is' are not in the Greek text. they were added by the translators to make the English less choppy.

The word (αδυνατον) impossible is the first word in the sentence. As I understand it, the word impossible applies to the entire scenario in verses 4-6 making the entire scenario hypothetical.

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
KJV

If they shall fall away There is no if in the Greek και παραπεσοντας means and even so NOT if


but the hypothetical creates a quasi subjunctive so we must read [but if it were possible; it would then be impossible] to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

MarcR
It is simple,

If (it is possibe) they fall away, they can. Ot be renewed.

Ie, no saved, unsaved, saved unsaved crap.

In the law (what they wanted to return to) one could fall away, and a new sacrifice would save him, this is what the author is warning about, if you go back, there is no hope for you, Because se if you fall away due to sin, o animal sacrifice can make you reborn again,
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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If Jesus fully experienced (tasted) death, then those spoken of in Hebrews really did believe and were baptized into Christ (the definition of being saved) because they could not have received the holy spirit apart from that.

And the people that John was talking about had to have believed and been baptized into Christ because the couldn't have been part of the church without that. They left the church because they left the doctrine of Christ to follow gnostic teachers.
Again. That's YOUR understanding, and John unequivocally says they were NEVER of them. Now please answer what your ideas of sealed is. Thank you.
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
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Most of these are taken out of context, but there is far more Scriptures that speak of our eternal security. What about ignoring those?
C...,

Share them if you think they justify OSAS. Because I can't find one that supports such weird new age religion thinking which has appeared since the 1960's social revolution.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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Again. That's YOUR understanding, and John unequivocally says they were NEVER of them. Now please answer what your ideas of sealed is. Thank you.
No, John did not use the word never. He said they went out from the church, which means they were at one time part of the church, but then they left because the doctrine they were deceived into following was not of GOD.
 
S

Seedz

Guest
S....,

Prayer is very helpful...each time thoughts enter the mind.
How do I know I am praying and not a demon or something?

I just feel like I can't know for sure under these terms....
 
Oct 31, 2015
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lol

you think those Jesus says depart from me were in Him?

even though He says He NEVER knew them?


ridiculous

Another made up fallacy.

Please point out where this scripture says He never knew them.


  • lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God


12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14



JPT
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
Another made up fallacy.

Please point out where this scripture says He never knew them.


  • lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God


12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14



JPT
Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

(point 1. those that do the will of the Father)

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

(point 2. these who say lord lord trusted in the works they have done and boast of these works to seek justification)

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

(point 3. He never knew them... they did not have His imputed righteousness so they were still charged for the sins they have commited.... even though they were never saved and He never knew them they DEPART from Him by going away from Him not with Him)


point 1. will of the Father?
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.



point 2

Titus 3:5-7
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.



point 3.

Philippians 3:9
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:


as well as what was already posted in matthew
 
Oct 31, 2015
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21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

I couldn't agree more.


However we are discussing Hebrews 3:12-14

These are warned not to depart from Him through unbelief.


Please point out where this scripture says He never knew them.


  • lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14



JPT
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
I couldn't agree more.


However we are discussing Hebrews 3:12-14

These are warned not to depart from Him through unbelief.


Please point out where this scripture says He never knew them.


  • lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14



JPT

by scripture flowing perfectly
He never knew them

there is no verse that says He knew them

but many that show 1.those who go out from us were never of us or no doubt would have continued with us

2. we not of them who fall back into unbelief but of them who believe unto salvation

3. He will lose NOT ONE of His own



in order to say He knew them you need to ignore the rest of the bible

as well as call Him a liar
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Another made up fallacy.

Please point out where this scripture says He never knew them.
Plenty of those... "I never knew you depart from you self-righteous worker of inquity" . Its not the wonder works that are the point .God can use a unbeliever to bring the gospel of Christ's wonderful works (prophesying under the authority of Christ's name or casting out demons) . Its hoping that God would accredit the good works to a self-righteous sinner that shows they went out from us because they never were of us .

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Mathew 7 :22-23

lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God


12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14
That's a warning to OSAS as that in which He works in the believer .There is no warning to a believer of losing something that is not of themselves to begin with.

Christians will not be found with any kind of righteousness of themselves (self righteous) We have a imputed righteous that come as Christ who eternal dwells in the believer works in us with us to both will and do His good pleasure ,
 
Oct 31, 2015
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by scripture flowing perfectly
He never knew them

Not even close.




A person who is in Christ, then departs from Him, and turns to serve another god of a religion is the context.


  • lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14




This scripture comes from the doctrine of Christ, where Jesus taught His disciples about this very subject and context.



11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.


  • lest they should believe and be saved.

Those who believe are saved.


  • who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.


Those who believe for a while then fall away: Depart from the faith: Depart from Him


Believe = Saved


Believe for a while = Saved for a while




JPT
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
Believe for a while = Saved for a while

JPT

horrible anti-biblical theory


"believe" for awhile = disingenuous faith that doesn't decieve God = no quickened spirit no new heart


just as He wasn't decieved by judas


you can keep posting the same out of context verses and show your ignorance

but the truth remains

He will not lose even one of His

and if you are of us (His adopted children)
you no doubt continue with us


and we (His adopted children)

are not of them who fall back into unbelief
 
Oct 31, 2015
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horrible anti-biblical theory


"believe" for awhile = disingenuous faith that doesn't decieve God = no quickened spirit no new heart


just as He wasn't decieved by judas


you can keep posting the same out of context verses and show your ignorance

but the truth remains

He will not lose even one of His

and if you are of us (His adopted children)
you no doubt continue with us


and we (His adopted children)

are not of them who fall back into unbelief

More opinion with no scripture.


Jesus taught the truth.


The condition for salvation is to believe.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.


  • lest they should believe and be saved.

Those who believe are saved.



Please provide a scripture that teaches us a person who believes for a while then returns to unbelieving is still saved.





JPT
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
More opinion with no scripture.


Jesus taught the truth.


The condition for salvation is to believe.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.


  • lest they should believe and be saved.

Those who believe are saved.



Please provide a scripture that teaches us a person who believes for a while then returns to unbelieving is still saved.





JPT

no root....

how can you not see what this means


goodness its like speaking to a blind and deaf man who doesnt know sign language

we are saved through belief

this isnt a choice

this is a response to hearing the call

if after hearing this call you turn from it in time <- not genuine belief

if you actually believe
you continue
not because you decide its best
but because your have now been transformed... being rooted in Him who works and will continue to work in you
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
More opinion with no scripture.


Jesus taught the truth.


The condition for salvation is to believe.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.


  • lest they should believe and be saved.

Those who believe are saved.



Please provide a scripture that teaches us a person who believes for a while then returns to unbelieving is still saved.





JPT
more scripture in context for your man made doctrine that rejects the truth


(since you lie and pretend i havent been using it i will use a small portion of what i have posted already to back up the truth of eternal security)


mark 4

3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:

4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.

5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:

6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.

8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.


______________

14 The sower soweth the word.

15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

called but not chosen <- no saving faith
not born again.... no root


their hearts were not transformed but rejected the seed
they would reject Him the moment they hear of the truth

____________

16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;

17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

again no root... not born again
no enduring faith


trials and tribulations were enough to prove they did not have a saving faith
______________

18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,

19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.


no saving faith... they turn from the knowledge of God to jump back into a life of living in and justifying sin and worldly pleasures instead of accepting they are wicked and need Him

(like the reprobate)

never born again

Romans 1
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

____________



20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.


theeeese are born again sons/daughters of God
Hebrews 10:39
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.


and unlike demons who know of Him but have no faith IN Him

there is fruit due to being rooted IN Him

(born again by grace through faith.... not works)

1 peter


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

we are those who no doubt continue in the faith
______________
1 john 2
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

________
not those who fall away into unbelief




bump for you
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
no root....

how can you not see what this means


goodness its like speaking to a blind and deaf man who doesnt know sign language

we are saved through belief

this isnt a choice

this is a response to hearing the call

if after hearing this call you turn from it in time <- not genuine belief

if you actually believe
you continue
not because you decide its best
but because your have now been transformed... being rooted in Him who works and will continue to work in you
Amen

As I have said numerous times, We lose faith in people who fail us. So to say a person can lose faith is to say God has failed that person in some way.

The fact is, God will never fail us, and the more we do his will the more we see his way is better. for this reason. People may lack faith in areas, but they will never lose faith. Because God will never fail us.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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Another made up fallacy.

Please point out where this scripture says He never knew them.
  • lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14
It's remarkable how much they hang on that one verse - Matthew 7:23. Christ was speaking of a certain type of persons who are very religious and think they were doing the will of GOD. He didn't say "I never knew you" to people who had stopped believing and deserted him.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
Or drifted away through neglect.

Because of this, [it is] all the more necessary [that] we pay attention to the [things] we have heard, lest we drift away. For if the word spoken through angels was binding and every transgression and act of disobedience received a just penalty, how will we escape [if we] neglect so great a salvation which had [its] beginning [when it] was spoken through the Lord [and] was confirmed to us by those who heard, Hebrews 2:1-3
Which is what I think is by far the more prevalent problem in the church today.

There are lot's of people who start out in faith in Christ but who through laziness, helped by Calvin's doctrine, never grow up into maturity where the word is deeply rooted in them and producing fruit and where they can not fall away. Instead, they languish in the immature, shallow ground of the 2nd type of soil in the Parable of the Sower and don't realize they have drifted away from the gospel, but they think they are ready to meet Christ with their fruitless selves when he comes back because they have been told they can never lose or forfeit their salvation. They will be among the ones who never knew him in a mature relationship with Christ (their fruitless lives being proof of that), having never grown up into that and instead fell away from the word and as a result fell away from Christ. But as Jesus points out, they will try to use the abundance of their church and ministry participation as proof they do know him intimately.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
Now which is it, do works save, or are we saved by fath?
Works save exactly the way Paul and James and Peter say they do. You don't get it because you do not know what that means without it meaning we earn our salvation by what we do.