Oh goody another OSAS thread!
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Now here is a strawman to fit ones belief
A gift is not earned, It is freely given, the person giving the gift pays for the gift himself
A wage or reward is earned, It is paid for by the one who is receiving the wage, either in work (employment) or in work (physical fitness to win a race)
You can not boast of a gift, the one who gave the gift gets ALL the credit, You can Boast of a wage or reward. because you did all that had to be done to earn it, in the case of an olympian trying to win a gold medal. He can boast proudly, because he worked and did better than every other athlete. but even the athletes who did not win, and maybe did not even place can still boast because of all the hard work they did.
A gift is not a reward. a gift is not a wage, they are opposites. They have absolutely nothing in common other than the peron who recieves them MAY be the same person.
A gift is not earned, It is freely given, the person giving the gift pays for the gift himself
A wage or reward is earned, It is paid for by the one who is receiving the wage, either in work (employment) or in work (physical fitness to win a race)
You can not boast of a gift, the one who gave the gift gets ALL the credit, You can Boast of a wage or reward. because you did all that had to be done to earn it, in the case of an olympian trying to win a gold medal. He can boast proudly, because he worked and did better than every other athlete. but even the athletes who did not win, and maybe did not even place can still boast because of all the hard work they did.
A gift is not a reward. a gift is not a wage, they are opposites. They have absolutely nothing in common other than the peron who recieves them MAY be the same person.
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The strawman was to say that "prize" in I Cor. 9:27 (where Paul says that he might be a castaway - or disqualified - other versions) is referring to Paul's reward and not to his eternal destiny. The Greek words here are inconclusive when it comes to the question of whether Paul meant "a full reward" or "salvation/heaven".
One's previous bias of interpretation will inevitably come into play when interpreting this text. If a person believes in OSAS, then it is impossible to interpret this text in any way except that Paul meant "reward" rather than "salvation."
The strawman argument to fit the doctrinal position was mostly done by other posters before you!
(My view - LOL!)
One's previous bias of interpretation will inevitably come into play when interpreting this text. If a person believes in OSAS, then it is impossible to interpret this text in any way except that Paul meant "reward" rather than "salvation."
The strawman argument to fit the doctrinal position was mostly done by other posters before you!
(My view - LOL!)
Hey Chester! First off, as I think you know, I am not one who thinks that if you believe you can lose your salvation that means you aren't really a saved Christian. I say that because my forthcoming question is not intended as a gotcha. I'd really like to know what you think.
So these were the questions I posed to another poster. His position was that God will unseal some of His Children for something yet defined that they may do.
Now I believe YOUR position is that God will NEVER leave us but that we can leave Him. So what does "sealed by the Holy Spirit" mean to you, and can you break that seal, and will GOD be the one who unseals?
I'd also like to hear what you think "knowing" Jesus means. Thanks brother.
I think his position on "knowing" Jesus had something to do with following His ways and NOT that Jesus made him a NEW creation. So I just copied and pasted part of our discussion:
What exactly do you think "knowing" means? Adam "knew" his wife and from that knowing a new life was created.
Matthew 7:21-23 New King James Version (NKJV)
I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I NEVER KNEW YOU; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
Jesus says He NEVER knew them. He NEVER created a NEW life in them. It appears that you believe similar to these guys who thought the new life came about by DOING a whole bunch of stuff in Jesus' name.
If you are NOT like these guys who practice lawlessness, then please tell us what "knowing" Jesus means to you.
It is a similar question to what does the sealing of the Holy Spirit mean to you. You said God can unseal you, but you didn't tell us what the sealing MEANT to you.
So please tell us what "sealing" means and what "knowing" Jesus means to you. Thank you.
So these were the questions I posed to another poster. His position was that God will unseal some of His Children for something yet defined that they may do.
Now I believe YOUR position is that God will NEVER leave us but that we can leave Him. So what does "sealed by the Holy Spirit" mean to you, and can you break that seal, and will GOD be the one who unseals?
I'd also like to hear what you think "knowing" Jesus means. Thanks brother.
I think his position on "knowing" Jesus had something to do with following His ways and NOT that Jesus made him a NEW creation. So I just copied and pasted part of our discussion:
What exactly do you think "knowing" means? Adam "knew" his wife and from that knowing a new life was created.
Matthew 7:21-23 New King James Version (NKJV)
I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I NEVER KNEW YOU; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
Jesus says He NEVER knew them. He NEVER created a NEW life in them. It appears that you believe similar to these guys who thought the new life came about by DOING a whole bunch of stuff in Jesus' name.
If you are NOT like these guys who practice lawlessness, then please tell us what "knowing" Jesus means to you.
It is a similar question to what does the sealing of the Holy Spirit mean to you. You said God can unseal you, but you didn't tell us what the sealing MEANT to you.
So please tell us what "sealing" means and what "knowing" Jesus means to you. Thank you.
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The strawman was to say that "prize" in I Cor. 9:27 (where Paul says that he might be a castaway - or disqualified - other versions) is referring to Paul's reward and not to his eternal destiny. The Greek words here are inconclusive when it comes to the question of whether Paul meant "a full reward" or "salvation/heaven".
One's previous bias of interpretation will inevitably come into play when interpreting this text. If a person believes in OSAS, then it is impossible to interpret this text in any way except that Paul meant "reward" rather than "salvation."
The strawman argument to fit the doctrinal position was mostly done by other posters before you!
(My view - LOL!)
One's previous bias of interpretation will inevitably come into play when interpreting this text. If a person believes in OSAS, then it is impossible to interpret this text in any way except that Paul meant "reward" rather than "salvation."
The strawman argument to fit the doctrinal position was mostly done by other posters before you!
(My view - LOL!)
If salvation is a GIFT not a REWARD as even you just stated you agree with, Then Paul could NOT be talking about his salvation. Since salvation is NOT a prize. the Prize in 1 Cor 9 could not be talking about salvation period.
Whether I believe in OSAS or not. Salvation is a Gift, Anything that is considered a prize (including the prize in 1 cor 9) Could NOT be talking about salvation.
if anything, the strawman would be to say the prize COULD be talking about salvation, to support ones belief.
You do not run a race to earn salvation, UNLESS salvation is earned by ones work, which even you claim is not true.
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I can't Agree, there is no won't about it, I would have to contradict myself.
In fact. I am kind of suprised. You said you agree, Salvation is a gift, Not a prize or reward. then you contradict yourself by saying running the race to earn a prize in 1 cor 9 could be salvation (meaning you were wrong to begin with, Salvation can be a prize, and not a gift, which must be earned) meaning you created your own strawman because you interpret it by your belief, not by reality.
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If he never knew someone, it means he never had a relationship with them, If he never had a relationship with them, it means he never adopted them as sons or daughters, if he never adopted them, He never created new life in them.
Its not a stretch, Nor does it have to be in the text, the bible is called a logos for a reason, it all fits together, it is a message, the message is the sae no matter what part your looking at.
Its not a stretch, Nor does it have to be in the text, the bible is called a logos for a reason, it all fits together, it is a message, the message is the sae no matter what part your looking at.
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Do you not know that one thing can have two purposes, like a spork? A spork is both a spoon and a fork. Or a pencil, which is used for writing, but also makes amazing sculptures (look up pencil sculptures on Google images). You cannot go up to a pencil sculpture artist and say "You can only use pencils for writing, you cannot use them for sculptures!" And he would say "Yes I can, and I have, the evidence is right here in front of you."
In the same way, what is usually used to earn things (labor, work, obedience) in one situation cannot earn what is sought after. Therefore the person giving what is sought after has to choose why to give it to one person and not to the other. Whatever they choose as a reason they want to give does not mean that person earned it by possessing that reason.
For example, a rich and famous person decided to give 100 computers away to a school. They chose a school that was poor but had good kids. Now, did being poor earn the computers? No. Did good behaviour earn the computers? No. It was a gift. Those kids, that school met the criteria that match the choice of who to give it to. Being poor cannot earn the gift, good behaviour cannot earn the gift, and our obedience cannot earn salvation. However, on a different note, those who obey meet the criteria of God's choice of whom to give it to.
In the same way, what is usually used to earn things (labor, work, obedience) in one situation cannot earn what is sought after. Therefore the person giving what is sought after has to choose why to give it to one person and not to the other. Whatever they choose as a reason they want to give does not mean that person earned it by possessing that reason.
For example, a rich and famous person decided to give 100 computers away to a school. They chose a school that was poor but had good kids. Now, did being poor earn the computers? No. Did good behaviour earn the computers? No. It was a gift. Those kids, that school met the criteria that match the choice of who to give it to. Being poor cannot earn the gift, good behaviour cannot earn the gift, and our obedience cannot earn salvation. However, on a different note, those who obey meet the criteria of God's choice of whom to give it to.
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A gift is not a reward.
One is earned
The other is not earned, But is given out of love, paid for by the giver.
If you try to make them equal or mean the same, you interpret one of the words outside its boundaires. and have twisted its meaning.
Salvation is a gift paid for by the blood of Christ
Rewards are things earned by Gods saved children who have done the work God created them to do.
our salvation is not based on how many rewards we get, and we do not run a race to earn salvation (or lose it if we do not finish the race)
One is earned
The other is not earned, But is given out of love, paid for by the giver.
If you try to make them equal or mean the same, you interpret one of the words outside its boundaires. and have twisted its meaning.
Salvation is a gift paid for by the blood of Christ
Rewards are things earned by Gods saved children who have done the work God created them to do.
our salvation is not based on how many rewards we get, and we do not run a race to earn salvation (or lose it if we do not finish the race)
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then the gift was never a gift, It was a downpayment (Ie, I will give you the wage now, But you must work to earn it, if you fail to live up to the agreement, I will take the gift back) ie, you recieve the wage in the spirit, and must perfect that wage in the flesh (by your obedience)
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