Once saved always saved? Or is salvation conditional on believing and following God's Word?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Aug 11, 2019
75
37
8
#1
Is salvation conditional on choosing to believe and follow Gods Word?

Hi all, just wanting to hear your thoughts, as I have been reading some scriptures of late all through the OLD and NEW Testament that suggest that the fruit of our faith in God's Word determines what we do and making salvation conditional on both BELIEVING what God says and following what God says.

THE LITTLE WORD IF DEMONSTRATES IN BOTH THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT HEBREW AND GREEK SCRIPTURES THAT SALVATION IS CONDITIONAL ON FREE WILL TO CHOOSE TO BOTH BELIEVE AND FOLLOW (FRUIT) GOD'S WORD (present tense) OR NOT TO BELIEVE AND FOLLOW GOD'S WORD.

OLD TESTAMENT (Not definitive)

IF (Hebrew) *H518; אם;'im; A primitive particle; used very widely as demonstrative, lo !; interrogative, whether ?; or conditional, if, although ; also Oh that !, when ; hence as a negative, not: - (and, can-, doubtless, if, that) (not), + but, either, + except, + more (-over if, than), neither, nevertheless, nor, oh that, or, + save (only, -ing), seeing, since, sith, + surely (no more, none, not), though, + of a truth, + unless, + verily, when, whereas, whether, while, + yet.

We must do well according to Gods' Word (believe and follow) in order to be accepted...

GENESIS 4:7 IF (conditional) you do well, shall you not be accepted? and if you do not well, sin lies at the door. And to you shall be his desire, and you shall rule over him.

Consequences for not believing and following...

GENESIS 20:7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for you, and you shall live: and IF (conditional) you restore her not, know you that you shall surely die, you, and all that are yours.

EXODUS 4:23 And I say to you, let my son go, that he may serve me: and IF (conditional) you refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay your son, even your firstborn.

Blessings for believing and following...

EXODUS 15:26 And said, IF (conditional) you will diligently listen to the voice of the LORD your God, and will do that which is right in his sight, and will give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases on you, which I have brought on the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that heals you.

LEVITICUS 26:3-5 [3], IF (conditional) you walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them; [4] THEN I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit. [5], And your threshing shall reach to the vintage, and the vintage shall reach to the sowing time: and you shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely.

LEVITICUS 26:14-18 [14], But IF (conditional) you will not listen to me, and will not do all these commandments; [15] And IF (conditional) you shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that you will not do all my commandments, but that you break my covenant: [16], I also will do this to you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. [17], And I will set my face against you, and you shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and you shall flee when none pursues you. [18], And IF (conditional) you will not yet for all this listen to me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

There are too many more to write so may stop here for the Old Testament scriptures and maybe post some more latter.

..............

NEW TESTAMENT (not definitive)

IF(Greek) *G1437; אםἐάν; ean; a conditional particle; in case that, provided, etc.; often used in connection with other particles to denote indefiniteness or uncertainty : - before, but, except, (and) if, (if) so, (what-, whither-) soever, though, when (-soever), whether (or), to whom, [who-] so (-ever)., See G3361.

God's forgiveness is conditional...

I JOHN 1:9 [9], IF (conditional) we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

MATTHEW 6:14-15 [14], For IF (conditional) you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: [15], But IF(conditional) you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Being a disciple we must follow what Jesus says...

MATTHEW 16:24 Then said Jesus to his disciples, IF (conditional) any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Conditions for inheriting eternal life...

MATTHEW 19:16-19 [16], And, behold, one came and said to him, Good Master, what good thing shall I DO, that I may have eternal life? [17], And he said to him, Why call you me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but IF (conditional) you will enter into life, keep the commandments. [18], He said to him, Which? Jesus said, You shall do no murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, [19], Honor your father and your mother: and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

JOHN 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: IF (conditional) any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

JOHN 8:24 I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins: for IF (conditional) you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sins.

JOHN 8:31-32 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF (conditional) you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed;[32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

JOHN 8:39 They answered and said to him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said to them, IF you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.

JOHN 8:51 Truly, truly, I say to you, IF (conditional) a man keeps my saying, he shall never see death.

God only hears those who are following His Word...

JOHN 9:31 Now we know that God hears not sinners: but IF (conditional) any man be a worshiper of God, and does his will, him he hears.

JOHN 14:15 IF (conditional) you love me, keep my commandments.

JOHN 15:10 IF (conditional) you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

JOHN 15:14 You are my friends, IF (conditional) you do whatever I command you.

JOHN 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, IF (conditional) a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our stay with him.

JOHN 15:6-7 [6], IF (conditional) a man abides not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. [7], IF (conditional) you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you.

Ok once again too many to list and may post some more latter..

............

QUESTIONS

Q1 What does it mean to believe in God?
Q2 What is saving faith?
Q2 Is salvation conditional on BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's Word or just believing it?
 
Aug 11, 2019
75
37
8
#2
As shown above God's salvation is condtional on believing and following God's Word...

Q1 WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BELIEVE IN GOD?

Applications to believe and not to believe

G4102 Πίστις; pistis word use; OF; TO; THE; ASSURANCE; BELIEF; FEDELITY; From G3982; persuasion, that is, credence ; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: - assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

G4100 πιστεύω; word use is to BELIEVE; TRUST; DO NOT BELIEVE; DID NOT; COMMITTED; Greek word meaning pisteuō From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit ; by implication to entrust (especially one's spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 3:15-16 (SBLGNT)
15 ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων ἐν αὐτῷ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον. 16 Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλὰ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.

To believe translated here is in the present tense verb of doing belief and can be translated; as BELIEVE (present tense), CONTINUING TO BELIEVE AND ACTIVELY BELIEVING

John 3:15-16 (YLT)15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during, 16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

The continuing nature of saving faith is underscored by the use of the present tense of the Greek verb pisteuō (“believe”) throughout the gospel of John (cf. 3:15-18, 36; 5:24; 6:35, 40; 7:38; 11:25-26; 12:44, 46; 20:31; also Acts 10:43; 13:39; Romans 1:16; 3:22; 4:5; 9:33; 10:4, 10-11). If believing were a one-time act, the Greek tense in those verses would be aorist.

In fact, the most famous verse in the entire Bible uses a present tense verb that may be translated, “whoever continues believing in him” may have eternal life………….

G4103 πιστός; pistos word use FAITHFUL; BELIEVING; (active faith present tense) From G3982; objectively trustworthy ; subjectively trustful: - believe (-ing, -r), faithful (-ly), sure, true.

G544 ἀπειθέω; word use is to BELIEVE NOT; DO NOT BELIEVE; DO NOT OBEY; DISOBEDIENT; UNBELIEVING; OBEY NOT; Greek word meaning is apeitheō From G545; to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely): - not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving.

G543 ἀπείθεια; word use is UNBELIEF; DISOBEDIENCE Greek word meaning ἀπείθεια; apeitheia From G545; disbelief (obstinate and rebellious): - disobedience, unbelief.

G570 ἀπιστία; word use use is UNBELIEF; DISOBEDIENCE Greek word meaning ἀπιστία; G570 apistia; From G571; faithlessness, that is, (negatively) disbelief (want of Christian faith), or (positively) unfaithfulness (disobedience): - unbelief.

G545 ἀπειθής; word use is to be DISOBEDIENT Greek word meaning G545 ἀπειθής; apeithēs From G1 (as a negative particle) and G3982; unpersuadable, that is, contumacious: - disobedient.

G571 ἄπιστος; word use means to be FAITHLESS; UNBELIEVERS; BELIEVES NOT; UNBELIEVING; THEM THAT DO NOT BELIEVE; Greek word meaning ἄπιστος; Apistos; From G1 (as a negative particle) and G4103; (actively) disbelieving, that is, without Christian faith (specifically a heathen); (passively) untrustworthy (person), or incredible (thing): - that believeth not, faithless, incredible thing, infidel, unbeliever (-ing).

.................

A1. To BELIEVE God means to rely upon God's word to do what it says it will do and and follow what God says. Salvation is conditional on believing and following God's word always in the "present tense" conditional particle.

Hope this is a blessing, much love in the Lord Jesus...
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
13,596
1,885
113
#3
There are tons of threads on this subject where it has been litigated extensively. You are not asking the question because you have questions but to teach a doctrine you are quite certain suits your position.

You lack understanding of the subject material.

Ask yourself a simple question. Did you save yourself through your belief?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Aug 11, 2019
75
37
8
#4
There are tons of threads on this subject where it has been litigated extensively. You are not asking the question because you have questions but to teach a doctrine you are quite certain suits your position.

You lack understanding of the subject material.

Ask yourself a simple question. Did you save yourself through your belief?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Hello Roger, thanks for sharing your thoughts please forgive me if I do not agree with them. I do believe God's word how about you?

God bless.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
29,092
7,499
113
64
Florida
#5
None of these verses state explicitly that salvation can be lost. For those born again there is no 'if's'. John 3:15-16 is conclusive evidence that once saved by the shed blood of Jesus dying on the cross you are always saved. I really don't see Jesus dying on the cross to be on a conditional basis. Either He died for your sins or He didn't. If He didn't then reading the bible and trying to apply the principals and concepts in your life is pointless. Paul stated as such in his writings too.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
13,596
1,885
113
#6
Hello Roger, thanks for sharing your thoughts please forgive me if I do not agree with them. I do believe God's word how about you?

God bless.
Answer my question, did you save yourself by your belief?

It is inane to ask me if I believe Gods word. We have not established that you have received the grace of God and been born again.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Aug 11, 2019
75
37
8
#7
None of these verses state explicitly that salvation can be lost. For those born again there is no 'if's'. John 3:15-16 is conclusive evidence that once saved by the shed blood of Jesus dying on the cross you are always saved. I really don't see Jesus dying on the cross to be on a conditional basis. Either He died for your sins or He didn't. If He didn't then reading the bible and trying to apply the principals and concepts in your life is pointless. Paul stated as such in his writings too.
Each of the verses provided in the op directly show that salvation is conditional on believing and following God's word. Thanks for sharing your thoughts though.

God bless you.
 
Aug 11, 2019
75
37
8
#8
Answer my question, did you save yourself by your belief?

It is inane to ask me if I believe Gods word. We have not established that you have received the grace of God and been born again.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Salvation is by grace through faith it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8)

What come first faith or the word of God?

God bless
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,454
15,305
113
#9
I will NEVER leave thee or FORSAKE THEE
WE are KEPT by the power of GOD through FAITH <--the FAITH JESUS BEGINS, FINISHES and COMPLETES
I will LOSE NOTHING, but RAISE it up the last day
DOES ETERNAL or EVERLASTING = temporal? <--as applied unto LIFE
Paul was persuaded NOTHING can separate us from the LOVE of GOD
SEALED unto the DAY of redemption
THAT which is born from above DOES NOT SIN
THE GIFTS and CALLING are IRREVOCABLE <--what does that MEAN
SAVED to the UTTERMOST
IN the FATHER'S HAND, in the SON's HAND and NO MAN removes us <---does no MAN include US
Having been born of INCORRUPTIBLE SEED from ABOVE <----what does INCORRUPTIBLE mean
THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH
Bible's HOPE <---A CONFIDENT expectation of something GUARANTEED (NOT like a LOTTERY TICKET HOPE)
WHY does GOD CHASTEN every SON whom he receives if SIN can cause the loss of salvation?
To believers-->IF we become FAITHLESS (after faith) HE abides faithful because HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF. <--WHY
etc.

JESUS can saves us at our worst but CANNOT KEEP US SAVED is what salvation LOSERS expect us to embrace....and yet those that peddle is HAVE NEVER lost salvation.

THERE are SO MANY truths that must be rejected, denied, swept under the table to peddle a salvation that can be LOST.....GOD'S word does NOT contradict itself.....THE above TOTALLY contradict a losable salvation.....NOW think about that.....EITHER the above are ALL false or lies or a losable salvation is NOT peddled by the bible....
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
3,304
674
113
#10
[OP+] What are your thoughts on the following?

"...the gospel that/which I [Paul] proclaimed unto you":

1)--"which also ye received [aorist]"

2)--"in which also ye stand [perfect tense; G2476]"

3)--"by means of which also you are being saved"

and then...

--the "unless ye have believed in vain" [keeping in mind v.11 says, "thus ye believed"], and vv.13-17 explaining what the "believe in vain" refers to (which is, basically, to leave off [altogether] the vital aspect of "His resurrection," which would render their preaching in vain, and our faith in vain... [rendering it all ineffectual (apart from His "resurrection"), if you will]). Am I explaining this clearly enough? (or perhaps I need to rearrange some wording... hoping it'll come to me within 5 mins! :D )
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
13,596
1,885
113
#11
Salvation is by grace through faith it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8)

What come first faith or the word of God?
Faith comes from hearing and hearing the word of God. Romans 10:17

The Holy Spirit takes the word of God and brings souls to Christ. John 16:8-11

No man is born again by his own will but by the determinate will of God.

Not all who hear will come to Christ. John 3:19-20

If you are working to keep yourself saved you have not received salvation by grace.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Aug 11, 2019
75
37
8
#12
Answer my question, did you save yourself by your belief?

We have not established that you have received the grace of God and been born again.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Gratefully my salvation is in Jesus. If God's promises are conditional on believing and following his word as shown all through the old and new testament scriptures, how can one be once saved always saved when salvation is conditional on believing and following God's word always in the "present tense"?

It is only he who endures temptation to the end that receives eternal life (James 1:12)

God bless
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
9,662
3,299
113
#13
Once saved always saved? Or is salvation conditional on believing and following God's Word?
This title indicates confusion about salvation since there are three separate issues all combined together.

1. Does the Bible reveal that the salvation of the believer is eternally secure? Absolutely.

2. Are the conditions of salvation (justification) repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ? Absolutely.

3. Is obedience to the Word of God (and God Himself and Christ Himself) a necessary part of sanctification? Absolutely.
 
Aug 11, 2019
75
37
8
#14
[OP+] What are your thoughts on the following?

"...the gospel that/which I [Paul] proclaimed unto you":

1)--"which also ye received [aorist]"

2)--"in which also ye stand [perfect tense; G2476]"

3)--"by means of which also you are being saved"

and then...

--the "unless ye have believed in vain" [keeping in mind v.11 says, "thus ye believed"], and vv.13-17 explaining what the "believe in vain" refers to (which is, basically, to leave off [altogether] the vital aspect of "His resurrection," which would render their preaching in vain, and our faith in vain... [rendering it all ineffectual (apart from His "resurrection"), if you will]). Am I explaining this clearly enough? (or perhaps I need to rearrange some wording... hoping it'll come to me within 5 mins! :D )
Hi TheDivineWatermark very nice to meet you :)

Your post supports the OP in that the scriptures you have provided are indicative and written to believers that are believing and following God's word in the "present tense" It's application is never to unbelievers or is it's application to those who were once believers and have fallen away from believing and following God's word.

God bless brother thank you for sharing your thoughts.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
13,596
1,885
113
#15
Gratefully my salvation is in Jesus. If God's promises are conditional on believing and following his word as shown all through the old and new testament scriptures, how can one be once saved always saved when salvation is conditional on believing and following God's word always in the "present tense"?

It is only he who endures temptation to the end that receives eternal life (James 1:12)

God bless
God cannot change. God has promised eternal life to all who believe in Christ. God will no un-save a soul that has been saved. I told you that you do not understand the subject material.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Aug 11, 2019
75
37
8
#16
This title indicates confusion about salvation since there are three separate issues all combined together.

1. Does the Bible reveal that the salvation of the believer is eternally secure? Absolutely.

2. Are the conditions of salvation (justification) repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ? Absolutely.

3. Is obedience to the Word of God (and God Himself and Christ Himself) a necessary part of sanctification? Absolutely.
Hello Nehemiah6, thanks for sharing with us here. :) I agree with your post as God's promises are for those who believe and follow God's Word in the present tense. Thank you for sharing your thoughts brother.

God bless
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
3,304
674
113
#17
Gratefully my salvation is in Jesus. If God's promises are conditional on believing and following his word as shown all through the old and new testament scriptures, how can one be once saved always saved when salvation is conditional on believing and following God's word always in the "present tense"?

It is only he who endures temptation to the end that receives eternal life (James 1:12)

God bless
I guess I see James 1:12 as saying, "shall receive [or, lay hold on] the crown/stephanon OF the life..." (not "receive eternal life")

... perhaps even like [the 'lay hold on'] in Phil3:12 (which is speaking of, in the here and now).
 
Aug 11, 2019
75
37
8
#18
God cannot change. God has promised eternal life to all who believe in Christ. God will no un-save a soul that has been saved. I told you that you do not understand the subject material.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Hi Roger, absolutely God's promises are conditional though on us believing and following what God says. This is God's work in all those who believe his word and a part of the new covenant promise to love (Philippians 2:13, Hebrews 8:10-12; Romans 13:8-10)
 
Aug 11, 2019
75
37
8
#19
I guess I see James 1:12 as saying, "shall receive [or, lay hold on] the crown/stephanon OF the life..." (not "receive eternal life").
Indeed but this is also conditional...

JAMES 1:12 Blessed is the man that endures temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord has promised to them that love him.

Jesus says if you love me keep my commandments (John 14:15)
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,454
15,305
113
#20
You sound just like LOVEGODFOREVER........is this round three for you? My bible is clear.

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. <---Not jump through religious hoops.......!!