Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

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BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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Aha! Your wisdom and insight and intellect shine through again! LOL! You see I was saying something, and most will not even catch it!

I will answer clearly and succinctly ;):

Free Grace 2 wrote this: "Once a sheep, never a goat, OSNG. Or prove me wrong from Scripture."

By parody and satire I was pointing out (1) That he made up a statement that is not even true, and (2) That he begins with a man-made doctrinal statement and then says to prove it wrong from the Bible! (The correct way is to begin with the Bible and then to formulate doctrine from clear Scripture.)
I said enlighten me not confuse me further:cool:

Only joking.

I will try to follow the thead.
 

FreeGrace2

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2021
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So you believe that Charles Templeton will be in heaven because he at one time believed?
Sir, I believe all that Jesus said. He is the One who gives the gift of eternal life (Jn 10:28), and He gives it to those who believe (Jn 5:24). And the result of receiving eternal life is that the recipient SHALL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28).

If you can prove me wrong, I would be much abliged.

If so (and it seems this is what you believe), then a person can die as an unbeliever and still go to heaven. Is this what you believe?
My only question is whether that person has EVER believed. If so, then they WILL NOT BE CONDEMNED, per Jn 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12.

I believe what the Bible says. It seems that you don't really.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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What does OSNG mean?

Once snogged never give up?
 

FreeGrace2

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2021
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Why? You didn't prove anything. You gave your opinion is all.

If you have a verse/passage that shows clearly that a saved person can become unsaved, prove it.

And see post #180.
 

FreeGrace2

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2021
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What does OSNG mean?

Once snogged never give up?
Once a sheep, never a goat.

trying to get Chester to see things a bit more clearly. He seems to think sheep can become goats. But he's got a long uphill deal on that one.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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Ever heard of Charles Templeton? He was a world class evangelist who mentored a young Billy Graham. in 1947 they roomed together while traveling through Europe holding crusades.

Later on, he believed something (that wasn't true) that didn't square with reality, and concluded that God didn't exist. So this evangelist, who had led thousands, even hundreds of thousands to Christ, became an atheist. Not one of your run of the mill "activist-type" atheists, but an atheist just the same.

Here is the fact about salvation. The gift of eternal life is received (given by Jesus Christ-Jn 10:28) WHEN a person believes in Christ (Jn 5:24). So from the moment of saving faith in Christ, that person possesses eternal life, so that that person shall never perish.

There are 2 verses that explain very clearly who will be condemned:

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

The bolded words are in both verses. So, what do they mean? They refer to those who have NEVER believed, which is the same thing as "have not believed".

There is no time frame referenced, so the verses obviously include the entire person's life.

So, if one has NEVER believed, they WILL BE condemned.

But, if one has EVER believed, they SHALL NEVER PERISH. Because they were given the gift of eternal life.

Very simple.

It is amazing that Arminians keep trying to make things difficult.


Only #2 is correct.

We know that #1 cannot be true since Jesus Himself described the second soil as one who "believed for a while" but when testing/temptation came, "fell away". (quit believing)
My option #2 was:
(2) Teach that God will chasten and discipline the believer who is faltering, but if necessary will kill him (the sin unto death) before he becomes an unbeliever

You said: "Only #2 is correct".

So if you want to get to heaven really fast, just start sinning like Hitler, and God will kill you!??
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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My option #2 was:
(2) Teach that God will chasten and discipline the believer who is faltering, but if necessary will kill him (the sin unto death) before he becomes an unbeliever

You said: "Only #2 is correct".

So if you want to get to heaven really fast, just start sinning like Hitler, and God will kill you!??
What is the sin unto death?

I think I know you think and it's not sinning like Hitler?
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
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"Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up."—Galatians 6:7-9

Paul's not addressing unbelievers here but believers. And it has nothing to do with rewards or crowns. The group that sows to the Spirit inherits eternal life; the other group reaps corruption, or destruction. Why would he say not to give up? A person can't can't quit or give up on something they never possessed.

I can already hear the wheels churning as you look for ways to wiggle around this, so let's hear it.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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Sir, I believe all that Jesus said. He is the One who gives the gift of eternal life (Jn 10:28), and He gives it to those who believe (Jn 5:24). And the result of receiving eternal life is that the recipient SHALL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28).

If you can prove me wrong, I would be much abliged.


My only question is whether that person has EVER believed. If so, then they WILL NOT BE CONDEMNED, per Jn 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12.

I believe what the Bible says. It seems that you don't really.
So you have no answer about Mr. Templeton? Impossible for him to have had assurance of salvation at any time because he might change his beliefs and actions sometime and thus he could never have been a believer at all?????
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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Silly man. That's what I did. I started from Scripture. But maybe you haven't been following very closely.

In John 5:24 Jesus said those who believe (in the present tense) have (as in POSSESS) eternal life. Also in the present tense.

So, WHEN one believes, they ARE a believer, and they HAVE/POSSESS eternal life. Got it so far?

Then, in John 10:28 Jesus stated in very clear words that recipients of eternal life (check Jn 5:24 for who that is) SHALL NEVER PERISH.

There is no "man-made doctrine" in my statements, unless you just want to emphasize Jesus' humanity. Then it's correct.

But, unless you can show from Scripture some mention of:
a sheep becoming a goat,
or a saved person becoming unsaved,
or a justified person becoming unjustified,
or a regenerate person becoming unregenerate,
or a born again person becoming unborn,
you ain't got a point.

Therefore, OSNG is true.

But, humor me a bit. Thanks.
Very confusing??!!:

You use John 5:24 an John 10:28 as your Scriptures: and those are some powerful verses and promises to believers! PTL! But then you go back to your sheep and goat statement again - and none of your verses even have the word "sheep" or "goat" in them at all!

But you may believe and state anything you want - that is your prerogative!
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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So we have OSNG and now PTL.

I am afraid to ask any more.

I fell foul of such of the above.

My daughter text me to say that she got straight A+ in her A, level exams and as a result got a place in a top university.

I replied with WTF.

Apparently WTF doesn't mean "Well thats fantastic" which I thought it did.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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What is the sin unto death?

I think I know you think and it's not sinning like Hitler?
In the above post I was referring to one interpretation of the "sin unto death" (I John 5:16,17) which says that it = that God will take the life of a true believer (that is = kill him) before he loses faith. (This is what some OSAS people teach.)

To be honest I respect OSAS people that take the above view because at least they are consistent with their beliefs. But I really don't like to think I serve a God that would kill me if I choose not to keep following Him!

To get into what I think the sin unto death is another whole topic - that would take another thread . . .
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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So we have OSNG and now PTL.

I am afraid to ask any more.

I fell foul of such of the above.

My daughter text me to say that she got straight A+ in her A, level exams and as a result got a place in a top university.

I replied with WTF.

Apparently WTF doesn't mean "Well thats fantastic" which I thought it did.
Your poor daughter! You have me rolling in laughter!
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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"Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up."—Galatians 6:7-9

Paul's not addressing unbelievers here but believers. And it has nothing to do with rewards or crowns. The group that sows to the Spirit inherits eternal life; the other group reaps corruption, or destruction. Why would he say not to give up? A person can't can't quit or give up on something they never possessed.

I can already hear the wheels churning as you look for ways to wiggle around this, so let's hear it.
Well, for me, one thing I gain from these verses is that I will not give up the fight! Onward to the fight for the King of Kings!

No need to wiggle out of any thing in God's Word!
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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In the above post I was referring to one interpretation of the "sin unto death" (I John 5:16,17) which says that it = that God will take the life of a true believer (that is = kill him) before he loses faith. (This is what some OSAS people teach.)

To be honest I respect OSAS people that take the above view because at least they are consistent with their beliefs. But I really don't like to think I serve a God that would kill me if I choose not to keep following Him!

To get into what I think the sin unto death is another whole topic - that would take another thread . . .
You are right, it's another topic.

I believe the opposite of what you do.

But then again the conversation and beliefs would be no different from this thread.

Same argument for and against.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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JOHN 10:28 KJV "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand."

John 10:28 does not in any way support the doctrine of "eternal security". It says that the sheep (them) are given eternal life and they will never perish. The promise is clearly to the sheep. It is not a promise to those who are not sheep.

If you are not a sheep, you do not have eternal life and you will perish. Who is a sheep? The previous verse (27) says: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: " Sheep are those who are hearing Jesus' voice and are following Him. If you are not hearing His voice and following Him you are not a sheep and the promise of verse 28 does not apply to you.

The verse does not talk about the possibility or even the "how" of becoming a sheep or of no longer being a sheep.

The verse is a powerful promise and blessing to all who are sheep: to those hearing his voice and following Him.
And who are they who hear and follow Him? Christ here spoke to the Jews who doubted Christ and so he answered them that they actually do not believe in Him and his works. Their unbelief is of course the very reason they were not given eternal life. John 10:28 is indeed a powerful passage of having Eternal Life through Christ.
 

Jocund

Active member
Jan 14, 2021
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A question for you ResidentAlien:

Why can't both OSAS and "turning away from salvation" be true?

There is no tenable OSAS model which says that "all of you" is saved. There is a purification process in scripture, which means that a part is always lost. Sadness, despair, grief... they are all part of our earthly humanity but are destined to fade away in the coming of new earth and new heaven. These parts of ourselves are not saved. None of us are wholly saved according to scripture, only those parts of us that are the spiritual body. If one turned away from Christ, surely this means that those moments of their life are torn away in the purification. The "you" of that time-frame is lost, but the "you" that is in Christ has been once saved and is always saved. The fruit of the wheat is saved, the husk is not. If our time is focused on the growth of husk, that part of us is lost.

I've seen your points against an "entirely OSAS" model, but what about a purification OSAS model?
 

FreeGrace2

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2021
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My option #2 was:
(2) Teach that God will chasten and discipline the believer who is faltering, but if necessary will kill him (the sin unto death) before he becomes an unbeliever

You said: "Only #2 is correct".
That is correct.

So if you want to get to heaven really fast, just start sinning like Hitler, and God will kill you!??
Are you really that naive about God's discipline towards His disobedient children?

Ever heard of Ananias and Saphira?
Acts 5-
4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”
5 When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened.
9 Peter said to her, “How could you conspire to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.”
10 At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband.

Sometimes the discipline unto death isn't just to take out a disobedient child of God, it's to get the attention of the whole church, as the red words show.

Ever heard of the incestuous believer?
1 Cor 5-
1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife.
5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, (physical death at the hand of Satan) so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

Ever heard of the Exodus generation? They were all saved.

1 Cor 10-
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

Black bolded words prove that the Israelites were saved.
Red words refer to the sin unto death.

And, for the same reason as for Ananias and Saphira:

11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.

What is not clear about v.11?

I could go on and on. God's discipline is real. It's painful (Heb 12:11), and it can include physical death, even at the hand of Satan (1 Cor 1:5).

Speaking of which, consider 1 Tim 1-
19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith.
20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.

If pastors all across this country taught about God's divine discipline, I think the lot of evangelicalism would be vastly improved.