Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[phil36]

But to Calvinists it still is “non-work”.
See how that goes? Lol

What is a ''non-work'' more importantly what is a 'work'?

 

[Mindwrencher]

What is a ''non-work'' more importantly what is a 'work'?

Let me ask you point blank: Is confession a work?

 

[phil36]

Let me ask you point blank: Is confession a work?

I don't know what you mean, what do you mean by work?

 

[Mindwrencher]

I don't know what you mean, what do you mean by work?

Are you a Calvinist?

 

[phil36]

Are you a Calvinist?

It makes no difference.

What do you mean by ' is confession a work" what does work mean?

 

[Mindwrencher]

It makes no difference.

What do you mean by ' is confession a work" what does work mean?

You are telling me you do not know what “works” are?
Ok, “From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. In Christian theology, good works, or simply works, are a person's (exterior) actions or deeds, in contrast to inner qualities such as grace or faith.”
Therefore “Confession” is a work that results in salvation. Yet Calvinists insist that Salvation is entirely by the grace of God, and absolutely not by works.
So there is an apparent contradiction, if one insists that there is nothing a man can “do” that “results” in salvation.
The key is this: there is no work that will “merit” salvation because it is a “free gift”.
There are still things one “must do” in salvation, but they are not meritorious, not even faith itself is “meritorious”.

 

[phil36]

You are telling me you do not know what “works” are?
Ok, “From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. In Christian theology, good works, or simply works, are a person's (exterior) actions or deeds, in contrast to inner qualities such as grace or faith.”
Therefore “Confession” is a work that results in salvation. Yet Calvinists insist that Salvation is entirely by the grace of God, and absolutely not by works.
So there is an apparent contradiction, if one insists that there is nothing a man can “do” that “results” in salvation.
The key is this: there is no work that will “merit” salvation because it is a “free gift”.
There are still things one “must do” in salvation, but they are not meritorious, not even faith itself is “meritorious”.

Are you referring to justification or sanctification, your post isn't very clear. Is not faith an action that man does..he believes.

Don't all Christians believe that those of faith will produce good works?

 

[Mindwrencher]

Are you referring to justification or sanctification, your post isn't very clear.

It would depend upon which definition of synergistic you subscribe to and how you reconcile that with sanctification. Synergism implies teamwork, and under that definition “confession” works unto salvation like the scripture teaches. But it is still not meritorious.

 

[Mindwrencher]

Are you referring to justification or sanctification, your post isn't very clear. Is not faith an action that man does..he believes.

Don't all Christians believe that those of faith will produce good works?

James said that demons believe, but they tremble. So no, not all belief/faith produces good works. And please do not suggest that demonic belief is not faith.

 

[phil36]

It would depend upon which definition of synergistic you subscribe to and how you reconcile that with sanctification. Synergism implies teamwork, and under that definition “confession” works unto salvation like the scripture teaches. But it is still not meritorious.

Well, I would say all Christians believe sanctification is synergistic. Don't you?

 

[phil36]

James said that demons believe, but they tremble. So no, not all belief/faith produces good works. And please do not suggest that demonic belief is not faith.

I was referring to the faith (belief) of the faithful.

 

[Mindwrencher]

Are you referring to justification or sanctification, your post isn't very clear. Is not faith an action that man does..he believes.

Don't all Christians believe that those of faith will produce good works?

I am referring to “salvation” as stated in Rom 10. And exactly correct, faith is something that a man does.

 

[Mindwrencher]

Well, I would say all Christians believe sanctification is synergistic. Don't you?

I would think so, meaning that God and man are involved with salvation. In Acts, they are often asked “What must I do… “ and the apostle tells them what “to do”.

 

[Mindwrencher]

I was referring to the faith (belief) of the faithful.

I do agree that faith/belief in Jesus compels us to “good” works.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

James said that demons believe, but they tremble. So no, not all belief/faith produces good works. And please do not suggest that demonic belief is not faith.

Good day
there is a difference between belief and faith
a dead faith is no faith at all. That’s why it does not produce works

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Not if works lest anyone should boast

Not by works of righteousness which we have done but by his mercy

Faith is not a work we can’t boast of saving ourselves because we trusted God. That’s against human nature which is why legalism is so popular.

God did all the work hence we boast in him

 

[fredoheaven]

I don’t see John 10:28 as a proof text for OSAS. I think it is important to look at the preceding verses in John 10:26-27 to see how the Lord holds us accountable in our relationship with Him. I understand that some who believe in OSAS state that if a sheep is no longer following Christ, that means they believe they were never a true sheep to begin with.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. (So the sheep of Christ believe in Him)
27 MY SHEEP hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (the sheep also hear His voice and follow Him)
28 And I give unto them (who is this “them”? It is the same sheep who believe in Jesus, hear His voice and follow Him) eternal life (1st promise); and they shall never perish (2nd promise), neither shall any man pluckthem out of my hand (3rd promise).
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.These three promises are given, as clearly shown, to the sheep who:

believe in Him
know Him (John 10:14)
hear His voice
follow Him


So, the OSAS doctrine is that God is greater than all and "no man" can pluck us out of his hand. According to this doctrine "No man" would include us and our own will. As Christians, we have to know Him, hear His voice, and follow Him as our salvation is conditional. It is a free gift that can be rejected. I believe it possible for a born again Christian to fall out of the Spirit of God, and then continue on rejecting the Lord unto death.

Calvinists/Reformed perhaps don't see the possibility of God laying down two alternatives, pointing out the eternal and unchangeable consequences of each, and giving a person the choice, especially when God's will favors one alternative and abhors the other.

Calvinists argue that if a person can possibly choose the alternative that God does not wish, then that person's will can prevail over God's will, so the will of that person is the sovereign will, and God's will is subject to that person's own will.

This view overlooks the fact that our Lord himself was tempted and could have disobeyed his Father's will. He said that he would yield to his Father's will; but he also said that he could call upon his Father for twelve legions of angels to escape the cross —even though the Father’s will, written in prophecy, would then fail to be fulfilled (Matthew 26:39,53).

I see why you mention John 5:24. The natural question that follows is, “what does it mean to believe in Jesus?” To me, salvation is conditional. I think the believer must continue to repent when he/she falls from grace, as I do not think God's grace is irresistible. I do think that a Christian can stop believing in Jesus at anytime throughout the course of their life. They do this by returning to unrepentant and willful sin. It is my view that it is possible for a born again Christian to fall away and become one of the lost the Lord mentioned in Matthew 7:21-23, or Galatians 5:19-21.

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

19Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, cdivisions, 21envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that dthose who do2 such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.


There is of course the case of Judas, a born again follower losing his salvation. He was given the power to cast out devils in the sixth chapter of Mark. 7 And He (Jesus) called unto him the twelve (which obviously include Judas), and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them POWER over unclean spirits (so Judas Iscariot was given power over unclean Spirits);


13 And they CAST OUT MANY DEVILS (and using the power given by the Lord, Judas Iscariot whom was sent as one of the twelve cast out many devils), and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them. Judas was given the Power of the Holy Ghost which enabled him to cast out many devils. That is an example of someone who has received the Holy Spirit and has been born again. Judas was saved at that time and one of the sheep the Father gave Jesus in John 17:12. Jesus betrayed the Lord so that the Word of God would be fulfilled.

There is also the case of Simon the Sorcerer. Some Arminians point out this example to demonstrate the possibility of salvation being lost. Although there is no mention of Simon losing his salvation, Peter does mention to him he is on the way to perdition if he does not repent. To me, this demonstrates how a Christian should continue to ask the Lord for forgiveness after a transgression is committed. If a Christian can fall from grace by trusting in His own righteousness, I don't see why a Christian can't fall from grace by being overcome by unrepentant sin. I don't see why a Christian can't leave the Spirit of God and disobey Him, continuing on in unrepentant sin of his/her own free will.


Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.13 Then SIMON HIMSELF BELIEVED ALSO: and when he was BAPTIZED, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

The information above, which Luke writes down for us in Acts, is that Simon believed and was baptized. That will absolutely make the reader understand Simon was saved. Or else Luke would have totally confused us with his information about Simon.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Peter tells Simon that he is on the way to perdition and that he needs to repent so that God can forgive him for his wicked acts. Peter tells Simon that his heart is not right, and of course that means he couldn’t have been “saved” (spiritually alive) during this particular time.

Acts 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.

The OSAS debate mostly involves these four theological questions. "Can a Christian fall from grace?" Is God's grace irresistible? Is man totally depraved? Is it possible for a Christian to return to willful and unrepentant sin and lose salvation? I am no theologian, but I can understand why this debate continues on.

I reject all of TULIP but understand why many of my fellow Christians accept those doctrines. It is my view that man is depraved, not totally depraved. Total depravity is of course the foundational doctrine upon which the other five points of Calvinism stand. Here are three arguments against that doctrine for anyone who is interested in reading them. http://lhim.org/blog/2014/02/06/three-arguments-against-total-depravity/. I know that most all of my brothers and sisters in the Lord who hold to OSAS are probably already aware of this.

For one thing John 10:28 is not about Calvinism but it is good to know the verse in its context is about the assurance of every believer. The fact that every believer knows Christ and is a follower of his voice and Christ knows them. The assurance is that they will be keep in Christ and the Father's hand.

 

[Mindwrencher]

Good day
there is a difference between belief and faith
a dead faith is no faith at all. That’s why it does not produce works

The word belief in Greek is pistis, which means confidence or trust.
Commentators argue that the demons tremble in fear.
But that trembling could also be regarded as anger. They tremble with anger towards God.
Under that concept of anger, the image is that of one so diametrically opposed to God that they are trembling with hatred. They fully believe in God. They have total faith in Him, but they are diametrically opposed to Him and want nothing of goodness or righteousness. That’s why they do not repent and change even though they know full well that Christ is the Messiah, and fully capable of redeeming or destroying them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The word belief in Greek is pistis, which means confidence or trust.
Commentators argue that the demons tremble in fear.
But that trembling could also be regarded as anger. They tremble with anger towards God.
Under that concept of anger, the image is that of one so diametrically opposed to God that they are trembling with hatred. They fully believe in God. They have total faith in Him, but they are diametrically opposed to Him and want nothing of goodness or righteousness. That’s why they do not repent and change even though they know full well that Christ is the Messiah, and fully capable of redeeming or destroying them.

Demons did not trust in Christ

James argument is that if you believe there is one god you do well. Even demons believe this fact.

A person who has a dead faith had no trust in Christ. thats why they never do anything christ asks. They are hearers maybe but as james said, they are not doers.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Good morning,
Many people are concerned about “falling from grace”.
I believe scripture explains itself, so to find the answer we must look at what scripture says.
I only know of one way to fall from grace and that is given in Gal 5…”4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by the Law; you have fallen from grace.”
Paul is saying if you return to the Law for justification/salvation, you have severed yourself from Christ and have fallen from grace.
But that does not mean you cannot repent and return to the grace of Christ.
In Hebrews, the writer describes people who existed during a time of special operations of the Spirit. Jesus gave the Spirit on Pentecost in Acts 2, in fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy.
Remember, there was no New Testament Scripture at that time. The NT canon was being written.
So the Spirit gave them recall of the things Jesus had said.
The writer in Hebrews describes those who have been specially endowed with that ability by the Spirit. If such a person as that has “fallen away” (returned to the law) they cannot be renewed again to come to repentance since they put Jesus to shame by denying His Grace despite having been endowed by the Spirit to recall Jesus’ testimony and speak and teach under the Spirit’s direction. Such a person does not exist in today’s world.
No one today is authorized to create new scripture, as were those of the first century, therefore, Heb 6 should not be applied to people today.
May God bless you in every way.

I never heard It like that,I think I like your Interpretatio.Falling from grace was to the people during the law.