Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[HeIsHere]

I’m not going to answer this question that strips God of His deity. You have a different problem now and it’s between you and God at this point.

God is not wrong, it’s you that is wrong. Your faulty understanding doesn’t make God deceptive as you just so boldly declared.

“So answer this question.

Tell me, if you are so convinced being under the law/falling from grace causes one to loose their salvation, I want the exact metric God provides........ because otherwise this god (small g on purpose) is deceptive, not forthright and fickle.”

You constantly move the goal posts looking for a different rationale, none of them work neither from scripture nor reason/logic.

"I’m not going to answer this question that strips God of His deity."

This is your good news.....

"Listen people you can be saved, but if you fall from grace for some undetermined length of time you may

loose your salvation cause Jesus was not able to fulfill the Law completely.

He needs our help!!!!

Don't ask me for how long you can stay under the law and jeopardize your salvation cause God does not want to be clear on this

part the contract, He prefers we live in fear day in and day out.

I know most of you are under the delusion you have what it takes to pull it off, living under grace continually and consistently, your

delusion is correct and Jesus came up less than short.

God does not impute righteousness to those who have accepted His free gift

of salvation, that is incorrect it is actually a revolving door of righteousness some days you are in, some days you are out, but I know

you will be able to live under the delusion that you can cling to that righteousness cause that is how gifts are, we must cling to

them and prove we are worthy because they are never given in good faith, god does not act in good faith get that notion out of your

head they can always be taken away.

We are so thankful for this message of good news cause it reminds us we can supersede the work of Jesus and prove our merit since

God could not achieve 100% security for us.

Go forth and spread this insecure word of God.

Not amen!!

 

[HeIsHere]

And to answer your question @HeIsHere the exact metric is provided. You’re to walk in the Spirit, if you don’t then you’re under God’s law. You’re to not make a practice of sin. If you do then you need to repent, confess it to God, and go forward making every effort follow the Spirit of God that is leading you.

This is all in Romans, Hebrews, Galatians, and 1 John.

Perhaps the obvious red flag 🚩 on your part is that you’re, in effect, arguing against the requirement to walk in the Spirit. Paul is conclusive that they who follow after the flesh (those who don’t walk in the Spirit) will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Wrong again.

Conflating spritual salvation with the walk of discipleship.

 

[cv5]

Lol okay thank you. I’m sorry if I was a bit defensive. These forums bring that out in people and being setup for a one-two punch (so to speak) is a thing when discussing the Bible with people who already have a different perspective.

Anyway, when I read about grace in the Bible, a Greek/Hebrew lexicon, or an English dictionary I don’t see that it’s described as unconditional or unmerited. I see grace as just meaning favor or goodwill.

For example, if grace was truly unmerited favor then that would mean Universalism. There would be literally no prerequisites for salvation, no faith required, absolutely nothing. All that would exist is sinners standing in hostility toward God receiving grace. That would truly be unmerited favor.

So if I may ask, do you see Universalism as Biblically viable?

The gift of salvation by grace thru faith via the NEW COVENANT is a result of the compact made between the Father and the Son in eternity past. Likewise, the elect are chosen from eternity past as well.

Therefore this unmerited grace (and salvation) is NOT equivocal, arbitrary or capricious. On the contrary, it is antithetical to it.

Rom 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Eph 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Eph 2:6
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Eph 2:7
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

You lack perspective......

 

[Runningman]

Thank you for replying... I appreciate it!

As for Universalism, I think it's not only an incorrect belief, but also, it's untenable with a mere perusal of the Bible.

Me too! Then unmerited grace is also untenable with a mere perusal of the Bible.

Thus, walk in the Spirit to remain in God’s grace like the Bible says.

 

[Runningman]

Wrong again.

Conflating spritual salvation with the walk of discipleship.

Wrong again.

Salvation can be lost. What do you think it means when Paul said that those who do not walk in the Spirit, but walk in the flesh, will not inherit the kingdom of God? You think that means you still go to heaven?

Galatians 5
19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Runningman]

The gift of salvation by grace thru faith via the NEW COVENANT is a result of the compact made between the Father and the Son in eternity past. Likewise, the elect are chosen from eternity past as well.

Therefore this unmerited grace (and salvation) is NOT equivocal, arbitrary or capricious. On the contrary, it is antithetical to it.

Rom 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Eph 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Eph 2:6
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Eph 2:7
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

You lack perspective......

No you’re wrong.

You must be led by the Spirit and not fulfill the deeds of the flesh to not be under God’s law, but under grace. The Bible proves it. See below.

Galatians 5
16So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Romans 6
14For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

 

[gb9]

I’m not going to answer this question that strips God of His deity. You have a different problem now and it’s between you and God at this point.

God is not wrong, it’s you that is wrong. Your faulty understanding doesn’t make God deceptive as you just so boldly declared.

“So answer this question.

Tell me, if you are so convinced being under the law/falling from grace causes one to loose their salvation, I want the exact metric God provides........ because otherwise this god (small g on purpose) is deceptive, not forthright and fickle.”

"with every legalist, works salvationist, it comes down to this " you are not arguing with me, you are arguing with God"

many years here for me, many legalists, same taking point.

as if you speak true words.....

 

[Runningman]

"with every legalist, works salvationist, it comes down to this " you are not arguing with me, you are arguing with God"

many years here for me, many legalists, same taking point.

as if you speak true words.....

Did you read the comment I responded to? This person deliberately reduced God to having a lowercase g and proceeded to say bad things about Him. Don’t try to make excuses for them.

“Tell me, if you are so convinced being under the law/falling from grace causes one to loose their salvation, I want the exact metric God provides........ because otherwise this god (small g on purpose) is deceptive, not forthright and fickle.”

Falling from grace, being under God’s law, and consequently not inheriting the kingdom of God are real things. I’ve shown this repeatedly. Ignorance or erring in understanding this doesn’t give someone the right to say such things about God. Very bold indeed, to put it lightly.

Even if I thought I was correct, I wouldn’t take a chance and blaspheme God just to prove a point. That’s dangerous.

 

[posthuman]

Romans 7:5-6
For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not the oldness of the letter.


I notice that we have been delivered, having died with Him, in order to walk in the Spirit.

This seems different to me than the idea that we are to walk in the Spirit in order to be delivered and die with Him.

The deliverance from the Law through His death comes first, and enables us to walk in the Spirit - walking in the Spirit is the intended result of having been delivered from the Law.

It is not that we must walk in the Spirit in order to be delivered from the Law, but that we have been delivered from the Law ((past tense completed action)) in order to walk and serve in the Spirit.

 

[Runningman]

You constantly move the goal posts looking for a different rationale, none of them work neither from scripture nor reason/logic.

"I’m not going to answer this question that strips God of His deity."

This is your good news.....

"Listen people you can be saved, but if you fall from grace for some undetermined length of time you may

loose your salvation cause Jesus was not able to fulfill the Law completely.

He needs our help!!!!

Don't ask me for how long you can stay under the law and jeopardize your salvation cause God does not want to be clear on this

part the contract, He prefers we live in fear day in and day out.

I know most of you are under the delusion you have what it takes to pull it off, living under grace continually and consistently, your

delusion is correct and Jesus came up less than short.

God does not impute righteousness to those who have accepted His free gift

of salvation, that is incorrect it is actually a revolving door of righteousness some days you are in, some days you are out, but I know

you will be able to live under the delusion that you can cling to that righteousness cause that is how gifts are, we must cling to

them and prove we are worthy because they are never given in good faith, god does not act in good faith get that notion out of your

head they can always be taken away.

We are so thankful for this message of good news cause it reminds us we can supersede the work of Jesus and prove our merit since

God could not achieve 100% security for us.

Go forth and spread this insecure word of God.

Not amen!!

No goal posts being moved. Just solid Bible showing you that grace isn’t unmerited favor, walking in the Spirit keeps someone in God’s grace and not under God’s law, and those who are under God’s law will be judged as sinners, receive the wages of sin, and not inherit the kingdom of God. This is very plain. I’m sorry, I hope you will still love God after this. Some of the things you’ve said today deeply concern me.

 

[posthuman]

Romans 7:5-6
For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not the oldness of the letter.


I notice that we have been delivered, having died with Him, in order to walk in the Spirit.

This seems different to me than the idea that we are to walk in the Spirit in order to be delivered and die with Him.

The deliverance from the Law through His death comes first, and enables us to walk in the Spirit - walking in the Spirit is the intended result of having been delivered from the Law.

It is not that we must walk in the Spirit in order to be delivered from the Law, but that we have been delivered from the Law ((past tense completed action)) in order to walk and serve in the Spirit.

In a very similar way:

John 10:22-28
Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon's porch. Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him,
"How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly."
Jesus answered them,
"I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand."


Jesus tells those opposing Him that they do not believe because they are not His sheep.
He does not say they are not His sheep because they do not believe.
Being His sheep has primacy, and belief follows from it. We do not become His sheep based in whether or not we believe, but because we belong to Him, we do believe and follow Him.

This seems to indicate that we cannot "lose" status as one of His sheep: being His sheep is an intrinsic identity, not a result of our actions. We may be a good or a bad sheep, close to Him or wandering, stuck in the briars by our stupidity or wary of them in wisdom, but in either situation we remain His sheep.

And He is the Good Shepherd; He does not lose any of His sheep. When we are astray He finds us and rescues us. He calls us and we hear Him; we know His voice and trust Him.

It is not because we hear Him that we are His sheep, but because we are His sheep, we hear Him.

 

[posthuman]

Some of the things you’ve said today deeply concern me.

And do any of the things you have said deeply concern you?


1 John 3:20-21
For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God.

 

[posthuman]

grace isn’t unmerited favor

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

My copy of the Bible does not seem to describe Salvation as something we "earn" or "deserve" through merit.
If there is anything worthy in me of reward it isn't of me but of Christ working and dwelling in me.

i get the distinct impression that Romans 1-5 exhaustively builds that very case: that the Law promised life through "doing" but because all are constrained under sin, life can only be by the mercy of God, and in His grace He gives it on the basis of faith rather than the merit of works, such that He and He alone is the Author and Finisher of our Salvation.

Nothing i can do can merit His mercy. That is intrinsic to the word "mercy" - antithetical to the idea of merit.

 

[Cameron143]

In a very similar way:

John 10:22-28
Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon's porch. Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him,
"How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly."
Jesus answered them,
"I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand."


Jesus tells those opposing Him that they do not believe because they are not His sheep.
He does not say they are not His sheep because they do not believe.
Being His sheep has primacy, and belief follows from it. We do not become His sheep based in whether or not we believe, but because we belong to Him, we do believe and follow Him.

This seems to indicate that we cannot "lose" status as one of His sheep: being His sheep is an intrinsic identity, not a result of our actions. We may be a good or a bad sheep, close to Him or wandering, stuck in the briars by our stupidity or wary of them in wisdom, but in either situation we remain His sheep.

And He is the Good Shepherd; He does not lose any of His sheep. When we are astray He finds us and rescues us. He calls us and we hear Him; we know His voice and trust Him.

It is not because we hear Him that we are His sheep, but because we are His sheep, we hear Him.

This is an excellent point. Jesus never changes goats into sheep. He merely seeks and saves the lost sheep.
In like manner, tares grow alongside the wheat, but never are changed into wheat.

 

[Runningman]

And do any of the things you have said deeply concern you?


1 John 3:20-21
For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God.

Not at all. I search the scriptures daily to see if what I say is true, but I am not so arrogant as to say what I say is infallible. I lean on the understanding of the Bible to the best of the ability God has given me, pray for guidance, and correction if necessary. So far I’m not seeing most anything being presented as complete nor is OSAS even a Biblical option when taking all information into consideration.

 

[posthuman]

Not at all. I search the scriptures daily to see if what I say is true, but I am not so arrogant as to say what I say is infallible. I lean on the understanding of the Bible to the best of the ability God has given me, pray for guidance, and correction if necessary. So far I’m not seeing most anything being presented as complete nor is OSAS even a Biblical option when taking all information into consideration.

Do you believe you have salvation?
Why or why not?
On what basis?

 

[posthuman]

This is an excellent point. Jesus never changes goats into sheep. He merely seeks and saves the lost sheep.
In like manner, tares grow alongside the wheat, but never are changed into wheat.

It gives me great comfort and confidence in Him

=]

 

[cv5]

Do you believe you have salvation?
Why or why not?
On what basis?

That is exactly what I was thinking. Pity those trapped in a works/merit system of salvation.

 

[posthuman]

Do you believe you have salvation?
Why or why not?
On what basis?

@Runningman

i remembered that you do not believe salvation is a present possession.

So to equivalently rephrase,

Do you believe you will attain salvation?
Why or why not?
On what basis?

 

[cv5]

and correction if necessary

What is biblically correct is that Christians are born again into the family of the Father. Out of Who's hands we can never be snatched.