Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[Mem]

Does that mean we are God if we can do greater things than Jesus?

Jesus told Philip he would do greater things (then what he just saw Jesus do). He did not tell him that he would "do greater things than Jesus."

I think that is the common thread among sects that deny Jesus' divinity, the notion to become "greater than Jesus," which would be impossible since He Is God.

 

[cv5]

God isn't flesh,

He is now buddy....

Luk 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

 

[anotherperson]

John 14
28You heard Me say, ‘I am going away, and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I.

John 10
29My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

John 17
3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

John 4
23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him.

Hebrews 5
7During the days of Jesus’ earthly life, He offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the One who could save Him from death, and He was heard because of His reverence.

We, ourselves, are a "one", and we ourselves cannot snatch ourselves from Jesus' hand.

 

[Runningman]

There's absolutely no disharmony whatsoever between what I wrote and your response. In fact, I fully anticipated that you were going to quote verse 22 to me. Again, when Jesus was restored to the glory that he had with the Father before the world was or when he was only God, he was restored to it as both God and man. It's the man part that allows these "regular disciples", as you called them, to share in God's glory with Jesus in his humanity.

Btw, that's not anywhere near my only reason as to why Jesus is God, but you didn't actually address my question.

Again, how could Jesus have had glory with the Father before the world was unless he was the LORD, or Yahweh, or Jehovah himself?

My response proves that disciples sharing glory with God doesn't necessarily make someone God.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus told Philip he would do greater things (then what he just saw Jesus do). He did not tell him that he would "do greater things than Jesus."

I think that is the common thread among sects that deny Jesus' divinity, the notion to become "greater than Jesus," which would be impossible since He Is God.

The point was someone said Jesus is God manifest in the flesh so that means Jesus is God. I found the verse where it shows God manifesting in Jesus' flesh then Jesus said that those who believe in him will do greater works than the works God is doing through him.

Jesus isn't just speaking to Philip, but rather anyone who believes in him. That's people like you and I.

So, once again, we can do something Jesus did.

 

[Mem]

The point was someone said Jesus is God manifest in the flesh so that means Jesus is God. I found the verse where it shows God manifesting in Jesus' flesh then Jesus said that those who believe in him will do greater works than the works God is doing through him.

Jesus isn't just speaking to Philip, but rather anyone who believes in him. That's people like you and I.

So, once again, we can do something Jesus did.

Jesus is the source of the ability. Did Moses have to go through Jesus to do the works that He did? Moses believed, because God spoke to him even though he'd have rather just stayed in the desert. How did God speak to him? He manifested in the form of a burning bush. Was God a burning bush? Well, yes, but though He manifest in a bush, He wasn't 'just bush.'

 

[Runningman]

John 8:23
He said to them,
"You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world."

Being born again literally translates as "born from above." That means we can have that too.

Matthew 11:27
All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and [the one] to whom the Son wills to reveal [Him.]

That says "and [the one] to whom the Son wills to reveal [Him.]" so that isn't exclusive to Jesus.

Next.

here is another

John 11:25-26
Jesus said to her,
"I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

We can also be resurrected.

Next.

and another

Matthew 5:33-34
"Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.' But I say to you, do not swear at all"

I don't see your point. Jesus' doctrines and teachings came from his Father which is what being a prophet is. Other people get the gift of prophecy too.

and another

Luke 24:27
And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

The Bible has prophecies about many people, including Judas Iscariot, and many others. Being in a prophecy isn't unique to Jesus.

and another for good measure

• He alone among men came from above
• He alone among men knows the Father and reveals Him
• He alone does not 'have' life but IS life
• Moses and all the prophets said 'thus saith the LORD' but He alone among men says "I say to you" giving the commandment of God
• He alone among men is the subject of the testimony of all scripture

And for good measure:

-We can be born from above where Jesus is from
-The Father can be revealed to people
-We can also be resurrected
-Jesus' teachings came from his Father, that's prophecy, and prophecy is a gift other people can have
-Other people besides Jesus are in Biblical prophecy


Everything you showed is something people can have. It didn't prove your point.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

The point was someone said Jesus is God manifest in the flesh so that means Jesus is God. I found the verse where it shows God manifesting in Jesus' flesh then Jesus said that those who believe in him will do greater works than the works God is doing through him.

Jesus isn't just speaking to Philip, but rather anyone who believes in him. That's people like you and I.

So, once again, we can do something Jesus did.

Theoretically speaking, which is most necessary here because you and others missed a very important part of this story about us doing greater things than Jesus.

Jesus also said because He is leaving.

This now becomes we can do greater things because we have MORE TIME on earth than what Jesus did.

Jesus Ministry began at age 30 and He was gone at age 33. That's 3 years.

I've been around the Church most of my life and had I been walking in God like now, I would have seen 40 years worth of things done by God using me. I would have seen greater things done in 40 years and MORE THINGS done than Jesus did in 3 years.

When you read this passage of Scripture it's an obvious TIME FRAME SCENARIO.

 

[Runningman]

Theoretically speaking, which is most necessary here because you and others missed a very important part of this story about us doing greater things than Jesus.

Jesus also said because He is leaving.

This now becomes we can do greater things because we have MORE TIME on earth than what Jesus did.

Jesus Ministry began at age 30 and He was gone at age 33. That's 3 years.

I've been around the Church most of my life and had I been walking in God like now, I would have seen 40 years worth of things done by God using me. I would have seen greater things done in 40 years and MORE THINGS done than Jesus did in 3 years.

When you read this passage of Scripture it's an obvious TIME FRAME SCENARIO.

Jesus said "greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."

This is a reference to quality, hence the usage of the word greater.

This isn't about quantity of years. The timeframe in which someone does greater works than Jesus does not require a longer span of time than Jesus used in his ministry.

Do you know why Jesus said "because I go unto my Father?" I'll show you:

John 16
7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

 

[cv5]

-We can be born from above where Jesus is from
-We can also be resurrected
-Jesus' teachings came from his Father, that's prophecy, and prophecy is a gift other people can have
Everything you showed is something people can have. It didn't prove your point.

No.
We cannot.
People cannot.

Jesus and the Father is the source, graciously bequeathing these gifts upon us.....Jas 1:17.

John 15:5
".......for without Me you can do nothing."

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Jesus said "greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."

This is a reference to quality, hence the usage of the word greater.

This isn't about quantity of years. The timeframe in which someone does greater works than Jesus does not require a longer span of time than Jesus used in his ministry.

Do you know why Jesus said "because I go unto my Father?" I'll show you:

John 16
7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

You really have missed the point because you choose to ignore Jesus said because He is basically leaving

 

[Runningman]

You really have missed the point because you choose to ignore Jesus said because He is basically leaving

I didn't miss the point. I considered what you said and it didn't make sense.

You said "greater works" refers to length of time for those who believe. If that's true, then Jesus is guaranteeing every person who believes in him will have more time than he did, longer than 3 years to do work.

We are not even promised tomorrow, let alone the next second.

Jesus must have been talking about the works he did, the ministry, the miracles, etc. I do believe God can work through us, in us, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still around today.

Does that make more sense?

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Jesus said "greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."

This is a reference to quality, hence the usage of the word greater.

This isn't about quantity of years. The timeframe in which someone does greater works than Jesus does not require a longer span of time than Jesus used in his ministry.

Do you know why Jesus said "because I go unto my Father?" I'll show you:

John 16
7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Either I can go there or you come here but I am willing to explain 7 [[SEVEN]] Miracles that would blow your mind that God has done through my Faith and Belief because I am now seasoned in my Walk and Sold Out completely for God.

I also propose we go to a professional Polygraph Center so they can Authenticate and Prove factually and Truthfully what is being claimed.

Since you believe Jesus is not God and you have His same Gifts and Abilities, just how many Miracles have happened by YOUR FAITH AND BELIEF that God could and would do it?

 

[Cameron143]

I didn't miss the point. I considered what you said and it didn't make sense.

You said "greater works" refers to length of time for those who believe. If that's true, then Jesus is guaranteeing every person who believes in him will have more time than he did, longer than 3 years to do work.

We are not even promised tomorrow, let alone the next second.

Jesus must have been talking about the works he did, the ministry, the miracles, etc. I do believe God can work through us, in us, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still around today.

Does that make more sense?

Greater works isn't about greater in magnitude necessarily. Remember Jesus was in a human body and could only be in 1 place at a time. In leaving, the Spirit would come and be poured out on all believers so many, in multiple places, would be capable of doing what Jesus did.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

I didn't miss the point. I considered what you said and it didn't make sense.

You said "greater works" refers to length of time for those who believe. If that's true, then Jesus is guaranteeing every person who believes in him will have more time than he did, longer than 3 years to do work.

We are not even promised tomorrow, let alone the next second.

Jesus must have been talking about the works he did, the ministry, the miracles, etc. I do believe God can work through us, in us, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still around today.

Does that make more sense?

Yes, my total works should be more than what we read about what Jesus did because I have been doing them 35+ years longer than He did His.

 

[Runningman]

Either I can go there or you come here but I am willing to explain 7 [[SEVEN]] Miracles that would blow your mind that God has done through my Faith and Belief because I am now seasoned in my Walk and Sold Out completely for God.

I also propose we go to a professional Polygraph Center so they can Authenticate and Prove factually and Truthfully what is being claimed.

Since you believe Jesus is not God and you have His same Gifts and Abilities, just how many Miracles have happened by YOUR FAITH AND BELIEF that God could and would do it?

I guarantee I am a much younger Christian than you and God has done miracles through me as well. Things that would probably blow your mind. Even the way I converted to Christianity was nothing less than a divine encounter. Healings, prophecy, laying on of hands; I also am willing to submit to a polygraph.

 

[Runningman]

Greater works isn't about greater in magnitude necessarily. Remember Jesus was in a human body and could only be in 1 place at a time. In leaving, the Spirit would come and be poured out on all believers so many, in multiple places, would be capable of doing what Jesus did.

I agree. So What Jesus did we can also do. That's all I am saying.

 

[Cameron143]

I agree. So What Jesus did we can also do. That's all I am saying.

In Him yes. We have the same power working in us that raised Him from the dead. This power is not subject to us but God can and does wield it through us.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

I guarantee I am a much younger Christian than you and God has done miracles through me as well. Things that would probably blow your mind. Even the way I converted to Christianity was nothing less than a divine encounter. Healings, prophecy, laying on of hands; I also am willing to submit to a polygraph.

Do you follow the Gospel of Mark that in the NAME of Jesus/ I say Yeshua be healed, or whatever mountain you are facing before the miracle happens?

 

[Runningman]

In Him yes. We have the same power working in us that raised Him from the dead. This power is not subject to us but God can and does wield it through us.

And all of those things we can either do or have doesn’t make us God. I would be more willing to accept the little gods doctrine at this point in the discussion, but not likely either.