Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

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Justified

Active member
Jul 13, 2021
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I don't concern myself with your judgement if where I stand.

When you don't comprehend the importance of the answer to, do you believe God is Sovereign, you know nothing about God.
Find it amazing, well not really. You still will not answer a simple question will you. You have to dance around and make cute remarks.

Is the problem that you have no convictions to speak of? You may have stated what they are at some point and if so then perhaps you could point us to them.

PS not trying to judge you and why would you think I am?
 

Icedaisey

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
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475
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of course I also believe he cannot lie and gave man freedom from the start

“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;

but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬


do you believe God causes a man to reject him so he can punish him though ? Or has he told us how to live and how to die which gives us a choice to turn from wickedness and be saved ?

“And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:46-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s always been our choice but we tend to want to be in the dark because it’s friendlier to the flesh
That's the reason I asked you if you believe God is sovereign.

No, we don't have the ability to exercise unfettered choice in our lives.

The OT and NT tell us these things.
We can either accept what God tells us of himself and his will, or we can excise parts of scripture we don't agree with and imagine we are sovereign over our lives and make choices outside of God's sovereign power and authority as creator of all that exists and that operates according to his design.

Proverbs 16:9 A man’s heart plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,652
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That's the reason I asked you if you believe God is sovereign.

No, we don't have the ability to exercise unfettered choice in our lives.

The OT and NT tell us these things.
We can either accept what God tells us of himself and his will, or we can excise parts of scripture we don't agree with and imagine we are sovereign over our lives and make choices outside of God's sovereign power and authority as creator of all that exists and that operates according to his design.

Proverbs 16:9 A man’s heart plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.
that’s a bizarre theory so every evil deed a person does is because he is forced by God to do it and has no choice ?

“For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

seems like we’re free to me and we have the choice to do good or evil
 

Icedaisey

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
1,398
475
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“For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬
Bible definition Liberty.

That verse doesn't say our will for our life usurps God's.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,652
5,907
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Bible definition Liberty.

That verse doesn't say our will for our life usurps God's.
“That verse doesn't say our will for our life usurps God's.”

you have an odd way of interpreting things other people say.

do you have trouble with the term liberty ? It means freedom here’s niv version

“You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:13‬ ‭NIV‬‬

I’m not sure if you just are irritated with me or are really making the thought we don’t have a choice in what we do but from the beginning man was given freedom , and responsibility

“And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you are free but I’m warning you about this poisonous tree don’t eat of it or you will die

and then later when the law came to israel

“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

life and death is before you choose life so you may live

now in Christ

“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;

whether of sin unto death,

or of obedience unto righteousness?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

You should consider that of you want to do something your free to do it but also should believe what God said about the consequences of our actions

if we continue serving sin we’re going to die but it’s not Gods will he wants us to repent and live

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he doesn’t force us to repent or keep sinning he’s given us a choice in Christ to have eternal life or squander it on this words pleasures
 

Icedaisey

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
1,398
475
83
that’s a bizarre theory so every evil deed a person does is because he is forced by God to do it and has no choice ?

“For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

seems like we’re free to me and we have the choice to do good or evil
Humans are capable of that because we have a God appointed fallen human nature .

Proverbs 26:4 The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,652
5,907
113
Humans are capable of that because we have a God appointed fallen human nature .

Proverbs 26:4 The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.
sure there are a lot of wicked people but when they go to the lake of fire it’s not going to be because they had no choice it’s going to be because they had a wicked heart that continually chose to do evil .

God doesn’t force people to do evil that actually comes from here

“The field is the world;

the good seed are the children of the kingdom;

but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil;

the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:38-43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the bottom line is when one man kills another man or abuses a child or does some evil deed it’s not by Gods spirit and will they are doing it , it’s because they are serving sin having found Gods will unworthy
 

Icedaisey

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
1,398
475
83
“That verse doesn't say our will for our life usurps God's.”

you have an odd way of interpreting things other people say.
You only say that because you quoted my remarks and then posted a scripture that has no relevance to what I said.

do you have trouble with the term liberty ? It means freedom here’s niv version
Sure I do. That's why I made a very clear link to the Biblical definition of liberty.

[/QUOTE]"You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:13‬ ‭NIV‬‬

I’m not sure if you just are irritated with me or are really making the thought we don’t have a choice in what we do but from the beginning man was given freedom , and responsibility

“And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you are free but I’m warning you about this poisonous tree don’t eat of it or you will die

and then later when the law came to israel

“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

life and death is before you choose life so you may live

now in Christ

“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;

whether of sin unto death,

or of obedience unto righteousness?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

You should consider that of you want to do something your free to do it but also should believe what God said about the consequences of our actions

if we continue serving sin we’re going to die but it’s not Gods will he wants us to repent and live

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he doesn’t force us to repent or keep sinning he’s given us a choice in Christ to have eternal life or squander it on this words pleasures[/QUOTE]
John 6:37 All that the Father gives me shall come to me; and him that comes to me I will in no wise cast out.


John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them...

Acts 2:23
“Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain.”

“In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.” Ephesians 1:11
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,652
5,907
113
You only say that because you quoted my remarks and then posted a scripture that has no relevance to what I said.


Sure I do. That's why I made a very clear link to the Biblical definition of liberty.
"You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:13‬ ‭NIV‬‬

I’m not sure if you just are irritated with me or are really making the thought we don’t have a choice in what we do but from the beginning man was given freedom , and responsibility

“And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you are free but I’m warning you about this poisonous tree don’t eat of it or you will die

and then later when the law came to israel

“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

life and death is before you choose life so you may live

now in Christ

“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;

whether of sin unto death,

or of obedience unto righteousness?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

You should consider that of you want to do something your free to do it but also should believe what God said about the consequences of our actions

if we continue serving sin we’re going to die but it’s not Gods will he wants us to repent and live

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he doesn’t force us to repent or keep sinning he’s given us a choice in Christ to have eternal life or squander it on this words pleasures[/QUOTE]
John 6:37 All that the Father gives me shall come to me; and him that comes to me I will in no wise cast out.


John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them...

Acts 2:23
“Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain.”

“In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.” Ephesians 1:11[/QUOTE]

ahh ok that makes sense I’m sure
 

Icedaisey

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
1,398
475
83
sure there are a lot of wicked people but when they go to the lake of fire it’s not going to be because they had no choice it’s going to be because they had a wicked heart that continually chose to do evil .

God doesn’t force people to do evil that actually comes from here

“The field is the world;

the good seed are the children of the kingdom;

but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil;

the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:38-43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the bottom line is when one man kills another man or abuses a child or does some evil deed it’s not by Gods spirit and will they are doing it , it’s because they are serving sin having found Gods will unworthy
Isaiah 45:7
"Who hath ears let him hear." No one comes to Jesus unless the Father draws them.

If you recollect Jesus telling the Apostles why he spoke in parables, you might be able to stop insisting God didn't mean what he said as Sovereign over all his creation.

God created all things. All things function by God's design.

James 4:13-15 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit” 14 yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time."



"The LORD has made everything for His purpose—even the wicked for the day of disaster."
Proverbs 16:4

Proverbs 16:33 “The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.”

Proverbs 20:24 “A man’s steps are from the Lord; how then can man understand his way?”

Jeremiah 10:23 “I know, O Lord, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps.”

Amos 3:6 “Is a trumpet blown in a city, and the people are not afraid? Does disaster come to a city, unless the Lord has done it?”

Lamentations 3:37: “Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it?”
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,652
5,907
113
[
Lamentations 3:37: “Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it?”[/QUOTE]

I’m sort of over the conversation actually It seems silly to keep arguing the same things

God doesn’t force us to repent and be saved and doesn’t force us to do evil and be lost.

“And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

freedom and informed warning and consequence

“And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If God forced him to do it how unfair is God to blame and punish Adam for it ? It’s the same with any sin if man has no choice in what they do then God is unjust to ever punish any sin.

That’s definately not the God I know he gives informed choice and tells us how to live and not die so all we have to do is believe him and choose life


“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 

Icedaisey

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
1,398
475
83
Reworked my post #548 so the quote brackets make it more legible.

“That verse doesn't say our will for our life usurps God's.”

you have an odd way of interpreting things other people say.
You only say that because you quoted my remarks and then posted a scripture that has no relevance to what I said.


do you have trouble with the term liberty ? It means freedom here’s niv version
Sure I do. That's why I made a very clear link to the Biblical definition of liberty.

"You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:13‬ ‭NIV‬‬

I’m not sure if you just are irritated with me or are really making the thought we don’t have a choice in what we do but from the beginning man was given freedom , and responsibility

“And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you are free but I’m warning you about this poisonous tree don’t eat of it or you will die

and then later when the law came to israel

“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

life and death is before you choose life so you may live

now in Christ

“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;

whether of sin unto death,

or of obedience unto righteousness?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

You should consider that of you want to do something your free to do it but also should believe what God said about the consequences of our actions

if we continue serving sin we’re going to die but it’s not Gods will he wants us to repent and live

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he doesn’t force us to repent or keep sinning he’s given us a choice in Christ to have eternal life or squander it on this words pleasures.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me shall come to me; and him that comes to me I will in no wise cast out.


John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them...

Acts 2:23
“Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain.”

“In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.” Ephesians 1:11
 

Icedaisey

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
1,398
475
83
[
Lamentations 3:37: “Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it?”
I’m sort of over the conversation actually It seems silly to keep arguing the same things

God doesn’t force us to repent and be saved and doesn’t force us to do evil and be lost.

“And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

freedom and informed warning and consequence

“And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If God forced him to do it how unfair is God to blame and punish Adam for it ? It’s the same with any sin if man has no choice in what they do then God is unjust to ever punish any sin.

That’s definately not the God I know he gives informed choice and tells us how to live and not die so all we have to do is believe him and choose life


“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬[/QUOTE]
It is silly to keep going in circles with you.
Repeating the same scriptures won't help you to release the errant teachings you follow.

God is Sovereign, God predestined all things for the purpose of his will. People are people, good or evil, by God's design. God calls whom he will to be saved.

That's Bible, God's words, not opinion.
 

Justified

Active member
Jul 13, 2021
194
74
28
You only say that because you quoted my remarks and then posted a scripture that has no relevance to what I said.


Sure I do. That's why I made a very clear link to the Biblical definition of liberty.

Actually what you linked to was Baker's Dic and it said to look at Freedom.

Freedom, Exemption from fate, necessity, or any constraint in consequence of predetermination or otherwise; as the freedom of the will. Webster

Now I took the liberty of posting the Webster Dic definition of Liberty

Religious liberty, is the free right of adopting and enjoying opinions on religious subjects, and of worshiping the Supreme Being according to the dictates of conscience, without external control. Webster

So what we see is that Freedom/Liberty is the ability to make a free will choice bases on conscience.
 

Icedaisey

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
1,398
475
83
Actually what you linked to was Baker's Dic and it said to look at Freedom.

Freedom, Exemption from fate, necessity, or any constraint in consequence of predetermination or otherwise; as the freedom of the will. Webster

Now I took the liberty of posting the Webster Dic definition of Liberty

Religious liberty, is the free right of adopting and enjoying opinions on religious subjects, and of worshiping the Supreme Being according to the dictates of conscience, without external control. Webster

So what we see is that Freedom/Liberty is the ability to make a free will choice bases on conscience.
Yes, the link has,see Freedom, because liberty and freedom are synonymous.
If you would have scrolled down the page you would have found the Biblical applications regarding Liberty.
https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/liberty/
 

Justified

Active member
Jul 13, 2021
194
74
28
God is Sovereign said:
Wow that is quite a statement. So you think that God makes people good and He makes people sin, interesting. And on top of that He has decided whom He will save and only them so everyone else is doom to hell just because they were not picked. That is a very sad view of Gods' character.
 

Justified

Active member
Jul 13, 2021
194
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Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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It is silly to keep going in circles with you.
Repeating the same scriptures won't help you to release the errant teachings you follow.
According to you, isn't God directing him to say and do the things he does?

Are not the steps you say are "errant" laid out by God Himself?
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,652
5,907
113
I’m sort of over the conversation actually It seems silly to keep arguing the same things

God doesn’t force us to repent and be saved and doesn’t force us to do evil and be lost.

“And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

freedom and informed warning and consequence

“And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If God forced him to do it how unfair is God to blame and punish Adam for it ? It’s the same with any sin if man has no choice in what they do then God is unjust to ever punish any sin.

That’s definately not the God I know he gives informed choice and tells us how to live and not die so all we have to do is believe him and choose life


“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬
It is silly to keep going in circles with you.
Repeating the same scriptures won't help you to release the errant teachings you follow.

God is Sovereign, God predestined all things for the purpose of his will. People are people, good or evil, by God's design. God calls whom he will to be saved.

That's Bible, God's words, not opinion.[/QUOTE]

yes very silly we do agree there

“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God has set before us life and death we should choose life and that choice is offered right here

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 

Icedaisey

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
1,398
475
83
According to you, isn't God directing him to say and do the things he does?

Are not the steps you say are "errant" laid out by God Himself?
It's scripture, not me.
How do you not know the fallen nature of man is from God.
Believe in God but omit parts of his teachings we don't agree with because they're too personal?

He let Lucifer and the fallen angels fall to earth. Where Lucifer, now Satan, adversary, is lord. And operates here with God's permission.
As Satan roams about like a hungry lion seeking souls to devour. With God's permission.

Though likely there are teachings out there that say Satan can't do that anymore since the cross. Which isn't true.

"God is Sovereign.
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."

He killed the first born of every living creature in Egypt.

He drowned the whole world, all life succumbed in the deluge, save for those of Noah and his family, because humanity was wicked. Satan didn't give them,us, a fallen nature, God did.

And Noah and his family created new life so to populate the world again with people and their God given fallen human nature.
And he made a promise. He would never again drown the world for it's wickedness.

Next time he'd use fire.

There are said to be 1,239 prophecies in the Old Testament. 578 prophecies in the New. Roughly 27% of the Bible.

Do you accept there are prophecies in scripture?
Prophecy is God telling you what he has preplanned for the world.

So when he tells you, we make our plans but he sets our steps, what's not to believe? Except of course God didn't really mean that.