Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[SpeakTruth101]

You seem more interested in having a "gotcha" moment than you do in laying all your cards on the table. Again your so called simple question sounds loaded to me and I don't cast doubts on my views but I question your motivation.

How is discussing Scriptual idea on a Bible Discussion Forum loaded, they are very simple questions. If we disagree of course there could be a discussion/debate of us presenting each of our ideas. I find it odd you are reluctant to say if His words are a part of NT doctrine or not.

Here I will answer them myself

Do you accept the following as part of the new covenant doctrine

Yahshua/Jesus own words pre sacrifice? Yes I believe 100% they are the basis of NT doctrine.

His 12 disciples? Yes I believe He taught them directly and they teach as He does, therefore they are NT doctrine. If they ever stray from that I would take Yahshua's words but I have not seen them stray.

are they for Jew and Gentile alike? Yes Yahshua/Jesus words and His disciples words are for Jew and Gentile alike, for there is only one way.

I am not affraid to speak what I believe to anyone and I believe this to be true, if there are any who disagree that is fine, but rather than a personal attack I would want a discussion about Scripture.

 

[SpeakTruth101]

ALL of those passages are DESCRIPTIVE of what a true believer WILL do.


So IF you are a good tree, you WILL endure, overcome, and hold fast. That's exactly what Jesus said.
You Will Know Them by Their Fruits
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Indeed a true believe will walk in His ways, but I see even more elements within each verse, including but not limited to

but I see this one as encouragement

Hebrews 10:36-8, “For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of the Mighty One you may receive what is promised. For yet a little while – He who is coming shall come and shall not delay. But the righteous shall live by belief, but if anyone draws back, my being has no pleasure in him.”

I see this as promise

Hebrews 3:14, “For we have become partakers of Messiah if we hold fast the beginning of our trust firm to the end.”

James 1:12, "Blessed is the man who does endure trial, for when he has been proved, he shall receive the crown of life which the Master has promised to those who love Him."


Revelation 3:21, “To him who overcomes I shall give to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.”

here we are told how, they get harder as the list goes on

Revelation 12:11, “And they overcame him because of the Blood of the Lamb, and because of the Word of their witness, and they did not love their lives to the death."

I see this one as simple fact, indeed describing both those who are loveless and those who overcome

Matt 24:12-13, “And because of the increase in lawlessness, the love of many shall become cold. But he who shall have endured to the end shall be saved.”



In any case those who enter His Kingdom do not give emply lip service but sincere faith that is paired with action, that is doing what He says. Giving their whole life even.

Matthew 7:12-19,“Therefore, whatever you wish men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Torah and the Prophets.“Enter in through the narrow gate! Because the gate is wide – and the way is broad – that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter in through it.“Because the gate is narrow and the way is hard pressed which leads to life, and there are few who find it. But beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are savage wolves. See also Mat 7:23.“By their fruits you shall know them. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles?“So every good tree yields good fruit, but a rotten tree yields wicked fruit.“A good tree is unable to yield wicked fruit, and a rotten tree to yield good fruit.“Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

 

[cv5]

ALL of those passages are DESCRIPTIVE of what a true believer WILL do.


So IF you are a good tree, you WILL endure, overcome, and hold fast. That's exactly what Jesus said.
You Will Know Them by Their Fruits
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Contrarily, those who do not believe in the risen Christ possess no such attributes.

Anyone who cares to disagree open your window and take a look at the state of the world.

 

[cv5]

How is discussing Scriptual idea on a Bible Discussion Forum loaded, they are very simple questions. If we disagree of course there could be a discussion/debate of us presenting each of our ideas. I find it odd you are reluctant to say if His words are a part of NT doctrine or not.

Here I will answer them myself

Do you accept the following as part of the new covenant doctrine

Yahshua/Jesus own words pre sacrifice? Yes I believe 100% they are the basis of NT doctrine.

His 12 disciples? Yes I believe He taught them directly and they teach as He does, therefore they are NT doctrine. If they ever stray from that I would take Yahshua's words but I have not seen them stray.

are they for Jew and Gentile alike? Yes Yahshua/Jesus words and His disciples words are for Jew and Gentile alike, for there is only one way.

I am not affraid to speak what I believe to anyone and I believe this to be true, if there are any who disagree that is fine, but rather than a personal attack I would want a discussion about Scripture.

OK, I think that I have finally figured out the true nature of this doctrine of which you propound:

Anybody who is less "obedient" or less of a "law-keeper" THAN YOU is damned to the lake of fire.

I mean that's your compass heading, like it or not.

 

[SpeakTruth101]

OK, I think that I have finally figured out the true nature of this doctrine of which you propound:

Anybody who is less "obedient" or less of a "law-keeper" THAN YOU is damned to the lake of fire.

I mean that's your compass heading, like it or not.

OK so quote where I said anything like that?

Just more slander and false witness.

Also am I evil for quoting His words?

Im not the standard His words are according to Him

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

Matt 24:12-13, “And because of the increase in lawlessness, the love of many shall become cold. But he who shall have endured to the end shall be saved.”

 

[brightfame52]

Well I every human needs moercy no doubt, that does not remove the want or instructions to do His will and there is no cause for accusation to those who seek to do His will.

The one you speak of also spoke, His words are clear

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

John/Yahanan 6:63, "It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words that I (Yahshua/Jesus) speak to you, they are Spirit, and they are life everlasting."

John/Yahanan 5:28-30, “Do not be astonished at this-for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice, and will come forth. Those who have practiced righteousness will be resurrected in order to live; and those who have practiced wickedness will be resurrected in order to be damned."

You seem to form your doctrine from Paul alone, do you believe in following Yahshua/Jesus words?

I see your focus is not on Christs Suretyship Righteousness.

 

[SpeakTruth101]

I see your focus is not on Christs Suretyship Righteousness.

SO if I hear and seek to obey His words Im bad guy? maybe I want to do what He says because He offered Himself on my behalf.

I take what He says to heart

Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"

 

[SpeakTruth101]

SO to everyone who disagrees with me,

is it the only bad thing I can do one I have accepted Yahshua/Jesus is follow Him s He says?

Is it wanting to follow Him that makes me bad?

Im confused, as I believe following Him as He says is a good thing.

 

[cv5]

How is discussing Scriptual idea on a Bible Discussion Forum loaded, they are very simple questions. If we disagree of course there could be a discussion/debate of us presenting each of our ideas. I find it odd you are reluctant to say if His words are a part of NT doctrine or not.

Here I will answer them myself

Do you accept the following as part of the new covenant doctrine

Yahshua/Jesus own words pre sacrifice? Yes I believe 100% they are the basis of NT doctrine.

His 12 disciples? Yes I believe He taught them directly and they teach as He does, therefore they are NT doctrine. If they ever stray from that I would take Yahshua's words but I have not seen them stray.

are they for Jew and Gentile alike? Yes Yahshua/Jesus words and His disciples words are for Jew and Gentile alike, for there is only one way.

I am not affraid to speak what I believe to anyone and I believe this to be true, if there are any who disagree that is fine, but rather than a personal attack I would want a discussion about Scripture.

Such is the result of a graceless performance/merit religious system. Nobody "makes it" because nobody can.
FULL REVERSE you are heading into an iceberg.

Mat 23:15
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, for ye compass the sea and the dry land to make one proselyte, and when he is become such, ye make him twofold more the son of hell than yourselves.

 

[SpeakTruth101]

Such is the result of a graceless performance/merit religious system. Nobody "makes it" because nobody can.
FULL REVERSE you are heading into an iceberg.

Mat 23:15
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, for ye compass the sea and the dry land to make one proselyte, and when he is become such, ye make him twofold more the son of hell than yourselves.

So what part of what I said is wrong? You are just making up nonsense and falsely applying it to me

Never even said anything like that

How is discussing Scriptual idea on a Bible Discussion Forum loaded, they are very simple questions. If we disagree of course there could be a discussion/debate of us presenting each of our ideas. I find it odd you are reluctant to say if His words are a part of NT doctrine or not.

Here I will answer them myself

Do you accept the following as part of the new covenant doctrine

Yahshua/Jesus own words pre sacrifice? Yes I believe 100% they are the basis of NT doctrine.

His 12 disciples? Yes I believe He taught them directly and they teach as He does, therefore they are NT doctrine. If they ever stray from that I would take Yahshua's words but I have not seen them stray.

are they for Jew and Gentile alike? Yes Yahshua/Jesus words and His disciples words are for Jew and Gentile alike, for there is only one way.

I am not affraid to speak what I believe to anyone and I believe this to be true, if there are any who disagree that is fine, but rather than a personal attack I would want a discussion about Scripture.

Explain to me exactly what part of my belief is wrong please

Yahshua/Jesus own words pre sacrifice? Yes I believe 100% they are the basis of NT doctrine.

His 12 disciples? Yes I believe He taught them directly and they teach as He does, therefore they are NT doctrine. If they ever stray from that I would take Yahshua's words but I have not seen them stray.

are they for Jew and Gentile alike? Yes Yahshua/Jesus words and His disciples words are for Jew and Gentile alike, for there is only one way.

 

[SpeakTruth101]

Such is the result of a graceless performance/merit religious system. Nobody "makes it" because nobody can.
FULL REVERSE you are heading into an iceberg.

Mat 23:15
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, for ye compass the sea and the dry land to make one proselyte, and when he is become such, ye make him twofold more the son of hell than yourselves.

Oh and the pharisees made up their own law, they did not follow YHWH's Law or Moses law

Mark 7:7-9, "But in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrine the commandments of men. For laying aside the Law of YHWH, you hold the tradition of men! Then He said to them: How well you reject the Law of YHWH, so that you may keep your own tradition!"

Mark 7:7-9,And in vain do they worship Me, teaching as teachings the commands of men.’. “Forsaking the command of Elohim, you hold fast the tradition of men.”And He said to them, “Well do you set aside the command of Elohim, in order to guard your tradition.

 

[John146]

His 12 disciples? Yes I believe He taught them directly and they teach as He does, therefore they are NT doctrine. If they ever stray from that I would take Yahshua's words but I have not seen them stray.

His twelve disciples didn't even have a clue concerning the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. It was hid from them and everyone else. How can one be saved without this knowledge?

Luke 18:
31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

 

[cv5]

Oh and the pharisees made up their own law, they did not follow YHWH's Law or Moses law

The Pharisees were BY FAR the most diligent punctilious law-keepers. Far more so than the average Israelite. Especially the common shepherd.

Luk 11:42
But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Paul could even brag of his law-keeping.

Act 22:3
I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.

Didn't do them a bit of good however.

Rom 9:31
But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32
Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

 

[SpeakTruth101]

The Pharisees were BY FAR the most diligent punctilious law-keepers. Far more so than the average Israelite. Especially the common shepherd.

Luk 11:42
But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Paul could even brag of his law-keeping.

Act 22:3
I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.

Didn't do them a bit of good however.

Rom 9:31
But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32
Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

If im wrong why did you have to cut out the verse I posted where Jesus says they keep tradition of men not YHWH's Law?

Mark 7:7-9,And in vain do they worship Me, teaching as teachings the commands of men.’. “Forsaking the command of Elohim, you hold fast the tradition of men.”And He said to them, “Well do you set aside the command of Elohim, in order to guard your tradition.

 

[SpeakTruth101]

His twelve disciples didn't even have a clue concerning the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. It was hid from them and everyone else. How can one be saved without this knowledge?

Luke 18:
31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

Then they witnesses it, and His resurrection and preached it and His doctrine...

Luke 24:45-47,Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and said to them, “Thus it has been written, and so it was necessary for the Messiah to suffer and to rise again from the dead the third day, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in His Name to all nations, beginning at Yerushalayim.


Mat 28:19-20,28:19, “Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, immersing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Set-apart Spirit, and make disciples of all the nations, immersing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Set-apart Spirit. Teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you. And lo, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

and their names are written on the foundation of the Kingdom....

Revelation 21:14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

they are in truth...

 

[cv5]

If im wrong why did you have to cut out the verse I posted where Jesus says they keep tradition of men not YHWH's Law?

Mark 7:7-9,And in vain do they worship Me, teaching as teachings the commands of men.’. “Forsaking the command of Elohim, you hold fast the tradition of men.”And He said to them, “Well do you set aside the command of Elohim, in order to guard your tradition.

IMO your whole doctrine revolves around your superior law-keeping, and everyone else's abject failure.

Which of course is the very definition of a "bad" Pharisee.

 

[SpeakTruth101]

IMO your whole doctrine revolves around your superior law-keeping, and everyone else's abject failure.

Which of course is the very definition of a "bad" Pharisee.

I see how you removed the verse that proved what I said in the last post, then focus on me YET

Quote where I said I was perfect or anything like you say of me...

 

[John146]

Then they witnesses it, and His resurrection and preached it and His doctrine...

Luke 24:45-47,Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and said to them, “Thus it has been written, and so it was necessary for the Messiah to suffer and to rise again from the dead the third day, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in His Name to all nations, beginning at Yerushalayim.


Mat 28:19-20,28:19, “Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, immersing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Set-apart Spirit, and make disciples of all the nations, immersing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Set-apart Spirit. Teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you. And lo, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

and their names are written on the foundation of the Kingdom....

Revelation 21:14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

they are in truth...

Yep, I know that very well. But what did the disciples preach before they had this understanding? Was it the message of the cross? What message did they preach?

 

[SpeakTruth101]

Yep, I know that very well. But what did the disciples preach before they had this understanding? Was it the message of the cross? What message did they preach?

Some were fishermen and tax collectors, etc. Im not sure they preached anything before becoming His disciples, certianly no text I have read has them ever preaching anything different than Yahshua's doctrine and what He did as the spotless Lamb.

 

[John146]

Some were fishermen and tax collectors, etc. Im not sure they preached anything before becoming His disciples, certianly no text I have read has them ever preaching anything different than Yahshua's doctrine and what He did as the spotless Lamb.

What did they preach after becoming disciples? What was their message?

Matthew 10
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.